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  #11  
Old 06-23-2009, 10:45 PM
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I understand why unions where created in the first place, however, they're one of the primary reasons that America is in the mess that it is. First they price Americans out of work, then wonder why companies would rather open up factories overseas. Seriously, why pay one worker $30 an hour with full medical benefits for his family, retirement plans, etc. when you can build a factory in Indonesia and pay 100 workers $1.00 an hour for 200 times the work?

Modern unions really only exist to make sure that bad workers get paid the same as good workers. In other words, they are the prototype for American socialism. No wonder Obama wants to force people into unions.

Unions are one of the primary reasons that GM and Chrysler went under. They wouldn't allow workers to renegotiate their contracts, so the companies were forced to close down factories and dealerships. Personally, I would rather take a pay cut than be forced to find a new job, unfortunately the unions wouldn't allow that. So, instead of the workers getting a 40-50% pay cut, they got a 100% pay cut. The unions just made the situation worse.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzard
I disagree. Where I live we are an at will state, meaning you can be fired without cause as long as it isn't an illegal reason. A union prevents that.
So what?

Unions also drive up costs for consumers, and the inner politics of unions are laced with corruption from top to bottom.

Yeah, in many cases they do fight for fair compensation, but ONLY for whats fair for the workers. Unions do little to take into to consideration what is good for the industry that has given them a job in the first place.

The point Nate raised about the UAW is spot on. Let me give you another example. The Major League Baseball Players Association, which I consider to be one of the most powerful unions in existence, is directly responsible for a lot of the problems in Baseball. It costs an arm and a leg to take your family to a game nowadays, and it's largely because of the policies the MLBPA has been fighting for over the last 30 years.

I could go on, but I am late to a recording session. More later.
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  #13  
Old 06-24-2009, 12:09 AM
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Yeah, they (unions) basically ended up screwing themselves over and the workers they were originally formed to protect. As usual man's greed supercedes common sense and intelligent thinking.

Same goes (greed) in the medical industry. First the doctors were greedy and had all the power and money so the government forms HMOs (supposedly to help the patients, yeah right!) then giving all the power and money to the insurance companies. So now the docs are finding ways to get around the law and invest in these medical plans, hospitals, nursing homes, and even hospices. I think it's criminal!

And we wonder why America is in such sad shape. Anything that starts out for the good of the many is quickly twisted and corrupted to serve the few who usually have more than enough already.
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2009, 12:16 AM
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i hate unions .. they may have been good years ago, but now they are not needed .... here in toronto our civic workers are on strike which means no garbage pick-up ... if you want to drop off your garbage, you gotta take it to a transfer station and they make you cross the picket line to do it and get harassed .. .LOL ... they are not fighting about money, but they get 18 sick days a year and get to bank them and at the end of their terms they can cash out what they have banked (i think it is capped at like 6 months or something), so the city wants to take it away ...
and tomorrow our liquor board workers are going on strike, so i gotta stock up on my booze ...

I HATE UNIONS
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  #15  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
I understand why unions where created in the first place, however, they're one of the primary reasons that America is in the mess that it is. First they price Americans out of work, then wonder why companies would rather open up factories overseas. Seriously, why pay one worker $30 an hour with full medical benefits for his family, retirement plans, etc. when you can build a factory in Indonesia and pay 100 workers $1.00 an hour for 200 times the work?

Modern unions really only exist to make sure that bad workers get paid the same as good workers. In other words, they are the prototype for American socialism. No wonder Obama wants to force people into unions.

Unions are one of the primary reasons that GM and Chrysler went under. They wouldn't allow workers to renegotiate their contracts, so the companies were forced to close down factories and dealerships. Personally, I would rather take a pay cut than be forced to find a new job, unfortunately the unions wouldn't allow that. So, instead of the workers getting a 40-50% pay cut, they got a 100% pay cut. The unions just made the situation worse.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
So what?

Unions also drive up costs for consumers, and the inner politics of unions are laced with corruption from top to bottom.

Yeah, in many cases they do fight for fair compensation, but ONLY for whats fair for the workers. Unions do little to take into to consideration what is good for the industry that has given them a job in the first place.

The point Nate raised about the UAW is spot on. Let me give you another example. The Major League Baseball Players Association, which I consider to be one of the most powerful unions in existence, is directly responsible for a lot of the problems in Baseball. It costs an arm and a leg to take your family to a game nowadays, and it's largely because of the policies the MLBPA has been fighting for over the last 30 years.

I could go on, but I am late to a recording session. More later.

Tell that "so what" to the family that lost their primary source of income and medical insurance when the breadwinner lost their job because the boss didn't like the employee and would rather hire minimum wage employees than keep his highly trained employees who earned and produced more.

Tell that to the employees who were let go one week before they would be vested in the company, losing not only their source of income but also their homes, retirement, and life savings due to the greed of the CEO's.

The blame for the auto industry should go upon the corporate CEO's who mismanaged the funds and took their millions in guaranteed money yet didn't have the smarts to run a lemonade stand. Bad business practices and decisions aren't the fault of the union worker; deep inside you probably know that to be true but can't/won't admit it.

To be fair though, all unions aren't the same and I don't like the fact the the lazy sob's have the same protection. A smart company can terminate a union employee if they have all their ducks in a row.

Your blanket statements which includes all unions show that you really don't know much about the struggle from the labor point of view.
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
Tell that "so what" to the family that lost their primary source of income and medical insurance when the breadwinner lost their job because the boss didn't like the employee and would rather hire minimum wage employees than keep his highly trained employees who earned and produced more.

Tell that to the employees who were let go one week before they would be vested in the company, losing not only their source of income but also their homes, retirement, and life savings due to the greed of the CEO's.

The blame for the auto industry should go upon the corporate CEO's who mismanaged the funds and took their millions in guaranteed money yet didn't have the smarts to run a lemonade stand. Bad business practices and decisions aren't the fault of the union worker; deep inside you probably know that to be true but can't/won't admit it.

To be fair though, all unions aren't the same and I don't like the fact the the lazy sob's have the same protection. A smart company can terminate a union employee if they have all their ducks in a row.

Your blanket statements which includes all unions show that you really don't know much about the struggle from the labor point of view.
Of course the CEO's had a hand in it, but a large part of the problem was the amount of benefits retired workers were getting. Something a lot of people fail to realize with giant benefit packages, just like Social Security, those kind of programs work for a while, but eventually people start taking more and more, then the pot runs dry.

Actually, I know quite a bit about labor unions, and their "struggle". My stepfather just retired from the Cement Finishers Union after over 40 years, to which he was vice-president of the local and ran their finances for over a decade. Also, my mom was a United Food and Commercial Workers member for almost 30 years.

Unions are run by politics, and the top dogs of the unions are every bit as corrupt as the CEO's themselves. That "so what" is because the overall good that unions are supposed to bring have been outweighed by their negative impacts. Higher labor costs equals higher costs of goods and services for the consumer. I don't know why that is so hard to understand...

There is both good and greed on both sides of the Unions and the Companies, but at a time when jobs are scarce, and consumer spending is way down, the people who make good money, and have good benefits, from working in unions have to understand that they are going to take a hit too, just like the rest of us.

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  #18  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
Bad business practices and decisions aren't the fault of the union worker
I don't think anyone was blaming union workers, we're talking about the people who run the unions. They can be just as corrupt and greedy as those "evil CEOs" (who seem to be the popular scapegoat for all the countries ills right now).
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  #19  
Old 06-24-2009, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
I understand why unions where created in the first place, however, they're one of the primary reasons that America is in the mess that it is.
To place the primary blame on unions is misguided at the very least, and insulting to the hard working unionized American workers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
I don't think anyone was blaming union workers, we're talking about the people who run the unions. They can be just as corrupt and greedy as those "evil CEOs" (who seem to be the popular scapegoat for all the countries ills right now).

Forgive me if I took your first quote as to put the blame on the union workers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
There is both good and greed on both sides of the Unions and the Companies, but at a time when jobs are scarce, and consumer spending is way down, the people who make good money, and have good benefits, from working in unions have to understand that they are going to take a hit too, just like the rest of us.

What makes you think that they haven't? I can give you factual information about my union and the major give-backs that we have given over the past decade and a half, if not two decades.

People seem to forget, you get what you pay for. You want employees that have dedication and care about the job, you pay them well and treat them well. You want fast turnover and a crappy product, pay a crappy wage and treat employees like scum.

While I have never needed my union to save my job from actions of my own doing, I have seen members need to use the union to keep clueless members of management in check. There is good and bad in unions just as there is good and bad in life in general.

My years as a shop steward made me see good and bad in both the union's position and in management's position. When I have been in a management position, I've treated the employees with respect and they in turn did the job and treated me with respect back. Never once did I have a complaint from the union against me.

I've seen more non-union managers hung out to dry and lose their jobs by my company than any union employee. They had nothing to protect them and many of them wished that they did. In fact some members of management gave up their position and joined the union ranks, and vice-versa.
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  #20  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
What makes you think that they haven't? I can give you factual information about my union and the major give-backs that we have given over the past decade and a half, if not two decades.

People seem to forget, you get what you pay for. You want employees that have dedication and care about the job, you pay them well and treat them well. You want fast turnover and a crappy product, pay a crappy wage and treat employees like scum.

While I have never needed my union to save my job from actions of my own doing, I have seen members need to use the union to keep clueless members of management in check. There is good and bad in unions just as there is good and bad in life in general.

My years as a shop steward made me see good and bad in both the union's position and in management's position. When I have been in a management position, I've treated the employees with respect and they in turn did the job and treated me with respect back. Never once did I have a complaint from the union against me.

I've seen more non-union managers hung out to dry and lose their jobs by my company than any union employee. They had nothing to protect them and many of them wished that they did. In fact some members of management gave up their position and joined the union ranks, and vice-versa.
Yeah,pretty much every union has had to give things back in some form or another. When people have no money to buy the goods and services, the companies cannot afford to operate at the same costs. That is just how it works. You can give some things back, or not have a job at all when the company goes out of business. I did not say that "they haven't", I just said that they have to take a hit too. Everybody is.

Paying a higher wage does not always mean you get a higher quality product. Besides, if a company puts out a crappy product, the market will fix that problem itself. Nobody buys crappy products for long.

Sure, unions can be used to protect workers in certain situations, but the road to failure is paved with good intentions. Look at the very situation cited in this thread. The teachers are paid by the school districts which are funded by TAX DOLLARS. Now a bunch of teachers who should probably be fired are sitting on their ass and getting paid because of union rules.

It's a two way street, and companies do not have to work with unions. However, if they don't then the unions will boycott the companies. How fair is that? In some industries unions are okay, but in the biggest industries there is a lot of problems that end up driving up costs for everybody, both directly and indirectly.

My problem is not with workers being fairly compensated, everybody wants that. However, I am a person who also values the free-market system, and unions can have as much negative effect on our economy as monopolies can.

Last edited by J.B.; 06-24-2009 at 07:01 AM.
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