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  #21  
Old 03-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Fred
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Well, none of it is ideal, whether we're talking about psychology or psychiatry; but some people do have verifiable imbalances in neurotransmitter activity in the brain. Drug treatment can help those imbalances.

Far better though, is Christian fellowship, prayer, and service. It gets one's mind off oneself and onto God and one's neighbor. And let's be frank: many people who have "psychological" problems got that way because of years of selfish behavior. Especially illicit drug-abuse---hard drugs and alcohol. Dealing with substance dependence and eliminating it is over half the battle with many folks.

So, I would say: 1) Christianity first. 2) Prescription meds. only if medically indicated because of a chemical imbalance. And then MAYBE 3) some short-term cognitive-behavioral therapy with a Christian counselor to address some specific habits.

Psychoanalysis is garbage. It won't help anyone is any practical way, IMO.

The whole Psychology/Psychiatry thing has gone too far---Ritalin for children; long-term therapy which does absolutely nothing, etc. It's terrible. People should be encouraged to put Christ first and then work hard in a Christ-like way for others. That is the best way to preserve mental health.
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2009, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fred
1) some people do have verifiable imbalances in neurotransmitter activity in the brain. Drug treatment can help those imbalances.

2) And let's be frank: many people who have "psychological" problems got that way because of years of selfish behavior. Especially illicit drug-abuse---hard drugs and alcohol. Dealing with substance dependence and eliminating it is over half the battle with many folks.

3) So, I would say: 1) Christianity first. 2) Prescription meds. only if medically indicated because of a chemical imbalance. And then MAYBE 3) some short-term cognitive-behavioral therapy with a Christian counselor to address some specific habits.

4) Psychoanalysis is garbage. It won't help anyone is any practical way, IMO.

The whole Psychology/Psychiatry thing has gone too far---Ritalin for children; long-term therapy which does absolutely nothing, etc. It's terrible. People should be encouraged to put Christ first and then work hard in a Christ-like way for others. That is the best way to preserve mental health.
1) most people with mental health issues have chemical imballences of somekind. they need something to correct a biological fault.

2) Thats bollox. You might like to think that to justify your position that they shouldnt be treated, but its a deciet. Let me talk to you about Depression. People can get depressed because they dont get enough exposure to light...how is that anything to do with being selfish?? Some people get reactive Depression...they are depressed for a reason, something is making them unwell, maybe stress, maybe something in their job, maybe something at home. Becoming distressed by ones surroundings or circumstances doesnt always happen because of years of selfish behaviour...what about a guy being made redundant from a job he loved, had done for along time, and feels unable to get a new one? whats about marriage breakdown on the Children of the devorced...bullying at school...?? Another major cause of depression is whats known as "Existential Angst" lets face it, people are unhappy because they are incomplete without GOD, they struggle to know what is true in an age that promotes Moral Relativism, they struggle to choose in a post modern society that is fractured and gives them TOO much choice...they feel small, stupid, lonely, irrelivent...meaningless...

Tell me...are you speaking as someone who has studied Psychology to degree level or has practised as a psychologist? Are you speaking as someone who has suffered some form of mental ill health and been treated either with psychological therapies, counselling, or medication? I ask because this will better help me to understand where you are coming from.....For myself, I fit into both categories...a loooooooong History that goes back to 1996

3) all those things I'd aggree with...the hard thing is...with Medication that stabilizes...what to do after that

4) I'm tempted to aggree...however, some of the theories I think are correct

5) well...there is another thing that you arent addressing. In the United States people can ask for perscription drugs...in the United Kingdom (where I am from) you cant "ask" for any perscription...thats for a doctor to TELL you what drugs to have (you can always refuse...but you cant "ask your pharmacist for...." "ask your GP for...." there are ZERO adverts on English TV for ANY of that...when I visited the United States I was shocked and appauled at the drugs companies and their...marketting...marketting of drugs that you shouldnt even know about...unless you either a doctor...or you've been perscribed them.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-2009, 01:02 AM
Fred
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LOL, you didn't like the thoughts I gave about depression. Well, I don't have personal experience with depression; but I have studied (not to degree level) about neurotranmission and some of the various DSM disorders (Major Depression, Cyclothymic Disorder, etc.) The bottom line is that in some people, serotonin, norepineprine, or acetylcholine can be out of balance because of bad diet, disease, or drug/alcohol abuse which damages neuronal membranes and thus, neurotransmission. In other people, they may have learned bad habits or ineffective coping skills which facilitate some negative thought patterns.

But, in almost every case, there is a basic loss of equilibrium, hope and focus. Completely deflated or frozen by anxiety. No goal-setting. No focus on activity outside of oneself. I've seen this in some family members. The focus on self is a huge part of the problem with depressives.

Regeneration is, by far, the best answer to that, and I've seen people get better because their prayer life improved and they got busy, working around other active, healthy people. Activity (including strenuous exercise) does a lot to increase neurotransmission, and working hard toward goals slowly repairs the neural pathways in the brain, as well. Staying off excessive booze and hard drugs is crucial, too. Fellowship, prayer, and service can take one a long way toward keeping up the activity level all week, and I've seen those things help depressed people tremendously.

Let's face it: Psychology and Psychiatry over the last 100 years has been a failure. They are a total bust. Few would argue that people, in general, are healthier or more mentally stable now than even a few decades ago. There used to be a time when you gave someone a pep-talk and a kick in the pants, and that's all it was expected to take to get them moving. Now, we have more labels for all the disorders, and more ways to "treat" them, but with abysmal results. Too many people have become comfortable carrying a label for life, instead of looking forward to the day when they are fully recovered. Christians need to do better than that.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-2009, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) most people with mental health issues have chemical imballences of somekind. they need something to correct a biological fault.
Most? What are you talking about? Are they tested for the chemical imbalances? Or are the tests so expensive that they just give them meds that might correct imbalances and if it works then assume that was the problem? Are there people with the same chemical imbalances that don't have mental issues?

Last edited by Neezar; 03-06-2009 at 02:37 AM.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-2009, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Fred
LOL, you didn't like the thoughts I gave about depression. Well, I don't have personal experience with depression; but I have studied (not to degree level) about neurotranmission and some of the various DSM disorders (Major Depression, Cyclothymic Disorder, etc.) The bottom line is that in some people, serotonin, norepineprine, or acetylcholine can be out of balance because of bad diet, disease, or drug/alcohol abuse which damages neuronal membranes and thus, neurotransmission. In other people, they may have learned bad habits or ineffective coping skills which facilitate some negative thought patterns.

But, in almost every case, there is a basic loss of equilibrium, hope and focus. Completely deflated or frozen by anxiety. No goal-setting. No focus on activity outside of oneself. I've seen this in some family members. The focus on self is a huge part of the problem with depressives.

Regeneration is, by far, the best answer to that, and I've seen people get better because their prayer life improved and they got busy, working around other active, healthy people. Activity (including strenuous exercise) does a lot to increase neurotransmission, and working hard toward goals slowly repairs the neural pathways in the brain, as well. Staying off excessive booze and hard drugs is crucial, too. Fellowship, prayer, and service can take one a long way toward keeping up the activity level all week, and I've seen those things help depressed people tremendously.

Let's face it: Psychology and Psychiatry over the last 100 years has been a failure. They are a total bust. Few would argue that people, in general, are healthier or more mentally stable now than even a few decades ago. There used to be a time when you gave someone a pep-talk and a kick in the pants, and that's all it was expected to take to get them moving. Now, we have more labels for all the disorders, and more ways to "treat" them, but with abysmal results. Too many people have become comfortable carrying a label for life, instead of looking forward to the day when they are fully recovered. Christians need to do better than that.
I've definitely seen that in a couple of "close" family members and truly believe, in their cases, that prayer and "focusing" on others more and less on themselves would bring big positive changes to their lives. The problem is getting them to "see" that.

"Too many people have become comfortable carrying a label for life, instead of looking forward to the day when they are fully recovered."--definitely "sig" worthy!

*Note: I'm not discounting those who definitely need/require medical and/or drug therapy.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2009, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred
LOL, you didn't like the thoughts I gave about depression. Well, I don't have personal experience with depression; but I have studied (not to degree level) about neurotranmission and some of the various DSM disorders (Major Depression, Cyclothymic Disorder, etc.) The bottom line is that in some people, serotonin, norepineprine, or acetylcholine can be out of balance because of bad diet, disease, or drug/alcohol abuse which damages neuronal membranes and thus, neurotransmission. In other people, they may have learned bad habits or ineffective coping skills which facilitate some negative thought patterns.

But, in almost every case, there is a basic loss of equilibrium, hope and focus. Completely deflated or frozen by anxiety. No goal-setting. No focus on activity outside of oneself. I've seen this in some family members. The focus on self is a huge part of the problem with depressives.

Regeneration is, by far, the best answer to that, and I've seen people get better because their prayer life improved and they got busy, working around other active, healthy people. Activity (including strenuous exercise) does a lot to increase neurotransmission, and working hard toward goals slowly repairs the neural pathways in the brain, as well. Staying off excessive booze and hard drugs is crucial, too. Fellowship, prayer, and service can take one a long way toward keeping up the activity level all week, and I've seen those things help depressed people tremendously.

Let's face it: Psychology and Psychiatry over the last 100 years has been a failure. They are a total bust. Few would argue that people, in general, are healthier or more mentally stable now than even a few decades ago. There used to be a time when you gave someone a pep-talk and a kick in the pants, and that's all it was expected to take to get them moving. Now, we have more labels for all the disorders, and more ways to "treat" them, but with abysmal results. Too many people have become comfortable carrying a label for life, instead of looking forward to the day when they are fully recovered. Christians need to do better than that.
Fred, you should read a Book called "Competant Christian Counseling" by Tim Clinton. He's a professor at my school and President of the American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC). I'm looking into becoming a member here soon, as part of my degree program.

I'll be getting a masters in counseling hopefully in 6-7 years then I would love to pursue a PhD in it. That book was for my first counseling class and really changed my negative perspective on couseling as a whole, since I recovered without pathological means in 2007, I KNOW people def don't need to be drugged. It's bad enough when you are out of balance to be given crap by people who don't care (psyciatrists in this instance). Rather, I would love to work without drugging people whenever possible....

anyway, cool thread.
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  #27  
Old 03-06-2009, 07:57 AM
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You are hysterical. How do you "know" all this? Or are you "guessing" and "assuming" or just judging everyone because they obviously arent as good as you? And no, I don't have a drug problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred
Far better though, is Christian fellowship, prayer, and service. It gets one's mind off oneself and onto God and one's neighbor. And let's be frank: many people who have "psychological" problems got that way because of years of selfish behavior. Especially illicit drug-abuse---hard drugs and alcohol. Dealing with substance dependence and eliminating it is over half the battle with many folks.
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  #28  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred
1) LOL, you didn't like the thoughts I gave about depression. Well, I don't have personal experience with depression; but I have studied (not to degree level) about neurotranmission and some of the various DSM disorders (Major Depression, Cyclothymic Disorder, etc.) The bottom line is that in some people, serotonin, norepineprine, or acetylcholine can be out of balance because of bad diet, disease, or drug/alcohol abuse which damages neuronal membranes and thus, neurotransmission.

2) In other people, they may have learned bad habits or ineffective coping skills which facilitate some negative thought patterns.

3) But, in almost every case, there is a basic loss of equilibrium, hope and focus. Completely deflated or frozen by anxiety. No goal-setting. No focus on activity outside of oneself. I've seen this in some family members. The focus on self is a huge part of the problem with depressives.

4) Regeneration is, by far, the best answer to that, and I've seen people get better because their prayer life improved and they got busy, working around other active, healthy people. Activity (including strenuous exercise) does a lot to increase neurotransmission, and working hard toward goals slowly repairs the neural pathways in the brain, as well. Staying off excessive booze and hard drugs is crucial, too. Fellowship, prayer, and service can take one a long way toward keeping up the activity level all week, and I've seen those things help depressed people tremendously.

5) Let's face it: Psychology and Psychiatry over the last 100 years has been a failure. They are a total bust.

6) Few would argue that people, in general, are healthier or more mentally stable now than even a few decades ago. There used to be a time when you gave someone a pep-talk and a kick in the pants, and that's all it was expected to take to get them moving. Now, we have more labels for all the disorders, and more ways to "treat" them, but with abysmal results.

7) Too many people have become comfortable carrying a label for life, instead of looking forward to the day when they are fully recovered. Christians need to do better than that.
1) Well I do have extensive personal experience. I was diagnosed with a self destructive form of OCD by a child psychologist in 1996, she gave me away to rid myself of the problem, and it worked!! Then between 2000-2003 I studied at degree level modular social sciences including Psychology, then in 2003 I developed reactive depression to some strange physical symptoms that were eventually described as a psycho-somatic anxiety disorder.

2) Psychologists CAN teach you coping strategies and stuff like that. its not all Freud or Medication you know

3) The thing about being in a depressive or anxious state (and I do not mean unhappy and stressed, I mean a state of mind which persists unchanged for months, every waking hour, for months, is that your not acting as you normally would. You are not in your normal frame of mind, its a completely different and increadibly scary mindset to be in. Even my memories of the time before the meds is...strange. Looking at it now, I cant understand the decisions I made at points, I cant understand why the same circumstances mean something different to me now, and how they could ever have meant what they did over that period of my life. When you are ill you are not functioning normally, people consider things that they would never otherwise consider, like suicide for example. I dont know if you could say they are completely responsible for their decisions. That is to say, they know the consequences of decisions...but for some reason, ideals that seem foolish to a healthy mind, suddenly seem obvious when in a state like that.

4) there is certainly a lot you can do on your own. For example, there was a gap of three months where the symptoms and the depression began to go away, before it returned and I ended on medication. But I was able to get a grasp of that because I had a safe environment, people who loved me, and I wasnt in work or in education. I could spend several months relaxing and calming myself down. Even then, the symptoms didnt dissapear completely...but when I began work in a new place, the slightest thing could set the whole problem off again...and it did...and the second time it was worse, because there was the added knowledge of the failure of that three months to change anything. I couldnt beat it on my own. So they can "help" but they do not cure or remove...and eventually the longevity of such an illness can develope to make it worse.

5) No they are not, both industries are doing fine.

6) Half the problem if I may be so bold is that if these people got help sooner, there would be so many sick. why do they avoid it? because, particularlly if they are male, its against Societal values to ask for help. Ever wondered WHY people end up on drugs in the first place?? Perhaps if they'd been given support early enough...perhaps if they'd asked for support...but all you do with that sorta statement is reinforce the stigma. For all you knowm, a manic depressive is lurking here, reading this...and thinks "he's right, im just being a hypercondriac, I just need a swift boot up the arse" and goes about his business rather then asking for the help he needs. if you dont have personal experience you dont know what its like...you cant imagine something as hellish as mental ill health...it isnt a case of being glum, it isnt a case of not doing enough...I pray you never have to encounter it first hand...because if you do it would change your whole outlook on life.

7) what makes you think GOD will heal them??? What makes you think GOD isnt working through psychiatry and psychology?? Can GOD only work through the Church...is he limited to only helping Christians in a Fellowship group??

and what makes you so sure he's going to heal every ailment a GODfearing Christian has? Does he promise good health?? does he even promise happiness on earth??

You need to understand he is a King, that means he does what he wants, when he wants, as he wants it. If it pleases him to heal someone he will, if it pleases him rather to watch them grow through trail, or to help others by their example under a great burden...then he may never heal them. He promises eternal life after death...he doesnt promise good health or happiness....you shouldnt be leading people to ASSUME that GOD will automatically heal them to inspire them with hope...because you are NOT GOD, and he might not decide to honour YOUR plan. You may encourage and pray with/for them...but never tell someone that GOD will definately instantly heal them...you are not an Apostle, you are just a Disciple, GOD is not half as active as he was, and it will be a withdrawal that happens more and more as we head towards the Tribulation.

One thing I learned in strategic Studies...if a Land invasion fails against the enemy, then an Air Offensive might be the only way to ensure success...but before you can launch an air offensive you must withdraw your own troops from the ground and fight, lest you kill THEM aswell as the enemy. There are Scholars who believe that GOD is slowly over time withdrawing his Spirit from creation, ready for the final assult.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:15 PM
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are you still on meds, or did you get off them...I'm still on mine
Still on medication. I have a major physical in two weeks at which point my doctor and I will discuss transitioning off.

My experience is that it may take both medication and other forms of help for a complete recovery.

I now know that I had a hereditary predisposition toward depression. My mother told me some family history before she passed. That set the stage.

A diagnosis of cancer pushed me over the edge. Well I am now considered officially cured from that disease but the memory lingers on.

There has been spiritual growth too, but that didn't really begin until I was more stable emotionally. I firmly believe that we were given modern medicine to help some of us move closer to Him. It's worked for me. One of these days I may post my personal testimony. It's been an interesting journey; I would characterize my self now as a charismatic Catholic.

So we have evangelicals, orthodox Anglicans like Tyburn, some like myself, also Calvinists and who knows what else. I believe we can learn from each other.

That said, I do believe that a lot of this contemporary self esteem movement is pure and utter you know what. A lot of these education programs are being run by totally unqualified people and have caused more harm than good. I believe the "self esteem" mantra is used so that people can avoid the more difficult search for what the true problem is in many cases.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
Most? What are you talking about? Are they tested for the chemical imbalances? Or are the tests so expensive that they just give them meds that might correct imbalances and if it works then assume that was the problem? Are there people with the same chemical imbalances that don't have mental issues?
No, as I understand it, too much or too little seratonin creates the illness, and then the illness is reinforced, the extra seratonin, or the too little seratonin, or the speed at which the chemical is released or absorbed becomes a permanent shift. Whilst the body is adjusting there is control over it, but that control soon goes as the shift in production becomes the new homeostatic norm.

The way they did it with me was, they had no knowledge what was causing the symptoms, but they did no I was only depressed because of the symptoms at that time. Thats reactive depression. They discovered I was depressed when they got me to do an extremely long and sensative survay the results told them what I was.

Now I was issued with Sertraline for a particular reason. Until they knew that the symptoms were the production of either an injury or a primary illness, they assumed, based on the tests thus far, that the symptoms were psycho-somatic...thus I needed to be relaxed. Sertraline is an anti-anxiety drug as well, it killed two birds with one stone. Later they had me seen a Neurologist, and have an MRI scan to proove there was no injury...thats when the primary illness was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder.

I didnt want to go see the Doctor. I was registered with a doctor in Harrogate but living in London. She was sorting out a date for my MRI, meanwhile I was only on anti-nausea tablets because I had trouble eating and felt sick and dizzy all the time. When the symptoms came back, I was in a quandary because I wanted to stay with my doctor up north so that I could have my MRI...if I changed Doctors I'd have to re-arrange the whole procedure and i'd go back to the loooooonnnnnnng que waiting for MRI (I mean MONTHS!) The Second Onset was October 1st 2003....I didnt go to the doctors and get put on meds until December 5th....but the worst time was December 10th-January 12th....MY GOD the side effects of Sertraline are NASTY, REALLY NASTY! So bad, I even had a spell of confusion over christmas, and their are days in my memory that are kinda missing in retrospect.

I hasten to add that I NEVER had a single day off sick, or missed a single lecture at University whilst I was depressed...I am NOT advocating people have time off work or study....plenty of people use depression as an excuse to have months off work in England....I never had a single day
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