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  #31  
Old 04-07-2009, 04:57 PM
matthughesfan21
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Funny as it may be, he is still wrong on so many levels.

First level... I am not discrediting Lebron. Not at all. In fact, I said he has much more raw talent then Kobe. It's the on-court leadership quality that I said Kobe has the edge on. That comes with winning championships. How long it takes you to do it has NOTHING to do with it. Kobe helped lead a Lakers team to a Championship after only 4 seasons. It took Jordan 7 years. I could see Lebron doing it here in the next couple years. They are both in the same league, but I still think Kobe has that little extra under his belt compared to James in that category for right now.

I also never said that Jordan and Kobe had crappy teams around them when they won championships, but the point is JORDAN AND KOBE MADE THEIR TEAMMATES BETTER PLAYERS. Instead of trying to compare Shaquille O'neal to Zydrunas Ilgauskas, why not look at the fact that the Cavs have had some pretty decent people on their roster since James entered the league.
Ilgauskas is actually a 2 time all star, and they also had players like Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall, and Drew Gooden. James led them to the finals, and they lost. Ben Wallace came in last season, and they made it to the Semi-finals, but they could not stop Boston.

Winning 65 games is great, but it dont mean crap if you fail in the playoffs. Ask my Phoenix Suns that. Still, Lebron IS awesome, and he could very well keep getting betting and better, only time will tell. This league is FULL of good competition right now, and it's no easy road for anybody.
you don't think Lebron is making his teammates better...Do you think that Ilgauskas' all-star appearances were at least partially possible because of Lebron being on his team, it really helps a big man look good when you have lebron taking up all the attention...Lebron plain and simple makes his teammates better as well, he may not have won a championship yet, but to even make it to a championship with a below average roster(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html)

compare that to the teams Kobe has played with that won championships, the level of talent across the board is higher...I'm not discrediting Kobe, but it just seemed like you were saying lebron doesn't make the players around him better, which imo is complete BS
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  #32  
Old 04-07-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were both great players who were hall of fame caliber even without Michael Jordan. Heck, Rodman is arguably one of the best defensive players ever. However, it's a lot of the other supporting crew that the Bulls had that largely fed of the energy brought by those guys. That is what makes a great team. That is what makes a dynasty.

Jordan had a style and confidence that has been unrivaled in the NBA, and when he was in the zone his teammates got pumped up and more focused too. Guys like Paxson, Kerr, Harper, Armstrong, Longley, Cartwright, and Horace Grant. Jordan made okay players look good, and the good players look great, while leading ALL of them to legendary status.

Yeah i didnt mean that Pippen or Rodman for that matter weren't world class but Jordan enhanced their game, but i guess in fairness, they also helped him.

I cannot compete with you on knowledge of this! See i was under the impression that Jordan and Pippen were greats and that whilst a great rebound expert, after Jordan left Rodman's game was never as good.

I may well be wrong!
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  #33  
Old 04-07-2009, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by matthughesfan21
you don't think Lebron is making his teammates better...Do you think that Ilgauskas' all-star appearances were at least partially possible because of Lebron being on his team, it really helps a big man look good when you have lebron taking up all the attention...Lebron plain and simple makes his teammates better as well, he may not have won a championship yet, but to even make it to a championship with a below average roster(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html)

compare that to the teams Kobe has played with that won championships, the level of talent across the board is higher...I'm not discrediting Kobe, but it just seemed like you were saying lebron doesn't make the players around him better, which imo is complete BS
I never once said that Lebron did not make his teammates better. I just said that he does not have the same credibility in that department as Kobe does at this point in time, and neither one of them are Jordan.

The Cavaliers roster is not and has not been below average for quite some time, and if you really care that I much I will break it down against the Lakers squad with Shaq, but it's kinda silly. Regardless, It don't really work both ways in the NBA. You are either winning championships or you are not. You cannot make it to the finals, lose, and then blame it on sub-par talent. Again, I am not discrediting LeBron by any means. I will say it a third time, I think he has more raw talent than Kobe.

The whole reason this came up was because of a comparison between Kobe and LeBron against MJ. The truth is, nobody is like MJ and nobody will ever be like him. During Jordan's prime, there was no competition for him. He dominated everyone. The game of basketball has not channged, yet the competition is so much tighter today then it was during Jordan's era. There is some great talent in the league today, and some great potential, besides just LeBron and Kobe.
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  #34  
Old 04-07-2009, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonlion
Yeah i didnt mean that Pippen or Rodman for that matter weren't world class but Jordan enhanced their game, but i guess in fairness, they also helped him.

I cannot compete with you on knowledge of this! See i was under the impression that Jordan and Pippen were greats and that whilst a great rebound expert, after Jordan left Rodman's game was never as good.

I may well be wrong!
Oh, I hear ya bro, don't sweat it! I love talking basketball, especially in April.

Jordan definitely enhanced their games. Thats why he was the greatest.

As for Rodman, he was already getting old when he came to the Bulls, and he was not as good in his later years with the Lakers or the Mavericks, but that is pretty much any old player. Still, he was awesome with the pistons and spurs before he came to the Bulls, and he was a 7 time all defense first team player and 7 time rebounding champion. Plus a bunch of other odd stats that are just crazy. Also, Phil Jackson seriously said that Rodman was the hardest working athlete he ever coached.
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  #35  
Old 04-07-2009, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Oh, I hear ya bro, don't sweat it! I love talking basketball, especially in April.

Jordan definitely enhanced their games. Thats why he was the greatest.

As for Rodman, he was already getting old when he came to the Bulls, and he was not as good in his later years with the Lakers or the Mavericks, but that is pretty much any old player. Still, he was awesome with the pistons and spurs before he came to the Bulls, and he was a 7 time all defense first team player and 7 time rebounding champion. Plus a bunch of other odd stats that are just crazy. Also, Phil Jackson seriously said that Rodman was the hardest working athlete he ever coached.

Ah i see, i only really saw him with the Bulls and then the subsequent slide but how could anyone better them years with the Bulls!

Wasn't aware of how good Rodman was before that, just knew he was a colourful character.

I certainly miss them guys, my favourite teams were always Houston, San Antonio, and the Sonics.

i miss playing basketball, was never very good but enjoyed playing it!
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  #36  
Old 04-07-2009, 09:38 PM
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jordan definitely made the guys around him better .... i also like stockton, dude had some serious passing skills .... i don't think malone gets his type numbers or HOF without him ... also, there are only certain guys that can dominate the game ... i think jordan, lebron, shaq and duncan are guys like that ... kobe is good, but he hasn't proven that he can make the guys around him better like these others have ...
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  #37  
Old 04-08-2009, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke
kobe is good, but he hasn't proven that he can make the guys around him better like these others have ...
Wrong
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  #38  
Old 04-08-2009, 03:14 AM
Chuck
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Originally Posted by JB Rattlesnake
Funny as it may be, he is still wrong on so many levels.

1. I am not discrediting Lebron. Not at all. In fact, I said he has much more raw talent then Kobe.

2. It's the on-court leadership quality that I said Kobe has the edge on.

3.That comes with winning championships. How long it takes you to do it has NOTHING to do with it.

4. why not look at the fact that the Cavs have had some pretty decent people on their roster since James entered the league.

5. Winning 65 games is great, but it dont mean crap if you fail in the playoffs.

6. Lebron IS awesome, and he could very well keep getting betting and better, only time will tell.
1. I get that from you JB and I respect that. In all of our talks/debates about sports, boxing, Super Bowl etc you have always been respectful and you always bring up intelligent points. So I guess I just wanted to say thanks for being somebody who can have a good discussion and not just post abunch of bias crap. Derek is another guy that I love talking sports with on here btw

2. Obviously you aren't including off the court incidents or Kobe wouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as LeBron. As far as on the court.. I disagree. When you talk Kobe you hear things like selfish, ball hog, prima donna etc.. I don't think he makes the people around him better at all. I think most people who get traded from the Lakers are relived to be away from him. Now I will give you this much.. I haven't followed him in about 2 years so it's certainly possible he's grown up and matured... but the Kobe I remember was a lot of things.... but a leader wasn't one of them .

3. I think Championships are a horrible litmus test on greatness. If we go by that then obviously Steve Kerr is a much, much better player then Stockton. Big Ben would be better then Marino etc... Championships are important no doubt but they can't be the determining factor in my opinion. IF how long it takes to win them means nothing then we can't even use that as criteria until both players are retired.

4. "decent" maybe... but nobody, absolutely nobody even close to Shaq, Pippen, Rodman or Fisher.

5. Failing in the playoffs is exactly what the Lakers and Kobe have done every single year since Shaq left. How many rings has he won without Shaq?

6. I do think LeBron is awesome and he is the only player I see or have seen that has a chance at becoming as great or nearly as great as MJ.
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  #39  
Old 04-08-2009, 03:27 AM
matthughesfan21
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Originally Posted by Chuck
1. I get that from you JB and I respect that. In all of our talks/debates about sports, boxing, Super Bowl etc you have always been respectful and you always bring up intelligent points. So I guess I just wanted to say thanks for being somebody who can have a good discussion and not just post abunch of bias crap. Derek is another guy that I love talking sports with on here btw

2. Obviously you aren't including off the court incidents or Kobe wouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as LeBron. As far as on the court.. I disagree. When you talk Kobe you hear things like selfish, ball hog, prima donna etc.. I don't think he makes the people around him better at all. I think most people who get traded from the Lakers are relived to be away from him. Now I will give you this much.. I haven't followed him in about 2 years so it's certainly possible he's grown up and matured... but the Kobe I remember was a lot of things.... but a leader wasn't one of them .

3. I think Championships are a horrible litmus test on greatness. If we go by that then obviously Steve Kerr is a much, much better player then Stockton. Big Ben would be better then Marino etc... Championships are important no doubt but they can't be the determining factor in my opinion. IF how long it takes to win them means nothing then we can't even use that as criteria until both players are retired.

4. "decent" maybe... but nobody, absolutely nobody even close to Shaq, Pippen, Rodman or Fisher.

5. Failing in the playoffs is exactly what the Lakers and Kobe have done every single year since Shaq left. How many rings has he won without Shaq?

6. I do think LeBron is awesome and he is the only player I see or have seen that has a chance at becoming as great or nearly as great as MJ.
I agree on most of your points, Kobe has become a much better passer though, I believe he is averaging about 5 APG this season, but lebron is averaging about 7, Lebron has always been a better passer than Kobe, but Bryant is starting to show he cares more about the team concept than he used to, but imo its still not on the level as Lebron
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  #40  
Old 04-08-2009, 03:40 AM
Chuck
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Originally Posted by matthughesfan21
I agree on most of your points, Kobe has become a much better passer though, I believe he is averaging about 5 APG this season, but lebron is averaging about 7, Lebron has always been a better passer than Kobe, but Bryant is starting to show he cares more about the team concept than he used to, but imo its still not on the level as Lebron
Well you better agree with me ya jackass!! Not only did I compliment you but I was supporting your opinion of LeBron!!!

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