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  #21  
Old 04-02-2009, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR
1)Mainly because Israel hadn't been a sovereign nation for over 2500 years prior to 1948. And saying that Israel was only reestablished as a way to "force" a prophecy fulfillment is really a deceptive and misleading statement. Since when have the world governments cared about fulfilling Bible prophecy? It happened because GOD wanted it to happen, no other reason.

Also because of other things that haven't been in place until the last 50-60 years: nuclear weapons, instant worldwide communication (this conversation you and I are having right now would have been considered impossible just 30 years ago), and the concept of a global community are all major signs that have only come about recently.
1) It happened because the Jews asked for it, and many of them who had fled from the Germans were within those countries who granted the request. Could that be GOD at work? Sure. But, there is no denying the fact that the Jews actively campaigned to MAKE a prophecy come true.

2) Nathan, what you have is some other stuff...yes but how long before that technology is used? are we CERTAIN the weapons being mentioned in the scriptures are Nuclear...and not even more advanced weapons which havent been created yet? If they are Nuclear...why does that mean the end is nigh...perhaps we dont use the technology in the way specified for Thousands of years...

Until the Tribulation begins, the Propehecy does not specifiy the time BETWEEN signs.

besides...you didnt answer my question...how do you know the Jews wont be displaced and recongregate at a later point in History? This constantly happened in the Old Testament...they came, they lived, they were taken into captivity, they broke free...and the cycle repeated...whose to say this isnt just another cycle...whose to say arabs like...Iran for example.. isnt going to displace the Jews and rule in Israel for a thousand years.......and then after that, the Israelis return.

I'll tell you something else...Define "Established Nation" because I can think of one VERY important thing which HASNT come back to Israel since it last left the land...something SO important to the people they begged GOD to provide.

I dont see a Monarchy in Jerusalem. I dont see a return of an Heir who can carry on the line of Kings...If you look at Israel now...and want to say its "Established" that depends on your Definition...because "Soverignity" needs a "Soverign" and they dont have one...they have a Government...but again...you presuppose so much.

I'm not saying we are thousands of years away...but equally, I'm not saying its gonna happen tommorow. The truth is the Scripture are DELIBERATLEY hazy. They quite on purpose miss out KEY things which could help define their passing.

They tell us a Temple has to be built...they do not tell us, how many Temples will be built before THE Temple.

They tell us the Jews will be in the Holy Land...but they dont tell us how many times they might come in and out of inheritance during History

They tell us of peace...but thats subjective anyway...what constitutes peace...how long must it last for a nation to declair itself peaceful...how many treaties will be made which fail, before THE peace arrives.
We assume the weapons and the systems in place at present will be used...but we dont know that to be the case. We dont know whether its the systems in use...but the fact they might not be used for eons...or infact if there will be other systems....how many times will there be a world Government BEFORE the leader of that is the Anti-Christ? How many changes in a single currency...before we're united enough for it to work?

You assume Nukes...and that they will be used quickly...you assume this financial crisis is the tribulational begining...rather then any past crisis, or any future crisis...you limit yourself to what you can see...and thats dangerous...because then you put your faith in your interpretation rather then admit its ambiguitis at best, indistinquishable at worst...

...then your faith is ruined when noone uses Nukes...when a Temple is built but no messiah returns...when a world Government appears but faulters....when an invading country pushes the Jews out of Israel....when Jerusalem is being besiged like in times of old, and the islamists are slaying all the jewish children...
.

Understand...that with my interpretation, all these things dont matter a jot. I know that GOD will do what he says...but I wont be shocked if he does it in his own time...and if what I thought was obviously the start of the Tribulation...is nothing more then my own pressure on GOD to finish a creation he's only a tenth of the way through...
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2009, 11:47 PM
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a Funny...to illustrate my point

In the fall of my first year at Saint Paul's Cathedral, they closed a side chapel and started digging it up to re-wire it. I asked the question,

"when will it be completed"

and was given the answer

"April...but we're unsure of the year"



Thats what Revelation gives us. "April" but it doesnt tell us what year. So every January, you have people saying "next month...."
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  #23  
Old 04-03-2009, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) It happened because the Jews asked for it, and many of them who had fled from the Germans were within those countries who granted the request. Could that be GOD at work? Sure. But, there is no denying the fact that the Jews actively campaigned to MAKE a prophecy come true.

2) Nathan, what you have is some other stuff...yes but how long before that technology is used? are we CERTAIN the weapons being mentioned in the scriptures are Nuclear...and not even more advanced weapons which havent been created yet? If they are Nuclear...why does that mean the end is nigh...perhaps we dont use the technology in the way specified for Thousands of years...

Until the Tribulation begins, the Propehecy does not specifiy the time BETWEEN signs.

besides...you didnt answer my question...how do you know the Jews wont be displaced and recongregate at a later point in History? This constantly happened in the Old Testament...they came, they lived, they were taken into captivity, they broke free...and the cycle repeated...whose to say this isnt just another cycle...whose to say arabs like...Iran for example.. isnt going to displace the Jews and rule in Israel for a thousand years.......and then after that, the Israelis return.

I'll tell you something else...Define "Established Nation" because I can think of one VERY important thing which HASNT come back to Israel since it last left the land...something SO important to the people they begged GOD to provide.

I dont see a Monarchy in Jerusalem. I dont see a return of an Heir who can carry on the line of Kings...If you look at Israel now...and want to say its "Established" that depends on your Definition...because "Soverignity" needs a "Soverign" and they dont have one...they have a Government...but again...you presuppose so much.

I'm not saying we are thousands of years away...but equally, I'm not saying its gonna happen tommorow. The truth is the Scripture are DELIBERATLEY hazy. They quite on purpose miss out KEY things which could help define their passing.

They tell us a Temple has to be built...they do not tell us, how many Temples will be built before THE Temple.

They tell us the Jews will be in the Holy Land...but they dont tell us how many times they might come in and out of inheritance during History

They tell us of peace...but thats subjective anyway...what constitutes peace...how long must it last for a nation to declair itself peaceful...how many treaties will be made which fail, before THE peace arrives.
We assume the weapons and the systems in place at present will be used...but we dont know that to be the case. We dont know whether its the systems in use...but the fact they might not be used for eons...or infact if there will be other systems....how many times will there be a world Government BEFORE the leader of that is the Anti-Christ? How many changes in a single currency...before we're united enough for it to work?

You assume Nukes...and that they will be used quickly...you assume this financial crisis is the tribulational begining...rather then any past crisis, or any future crisis...you limit yourself to what you can see...and thats dangerous...because then you put your faith in your interpretation rather then admit its ambiguitis at best, indistinquishable at worst...

...then your faith is ruined when noone uses Nukes...when a Temple is built but no messiah returns...when a world Government appears but faulters....when an invading country pushes the Jews out of Israel....when Jerusalem is being besiged like in times of old, and the islamists are slaying all the jewish children...
.

Understand...that with my interpretation, all these things dont matter a jot. I know that GOD will do what he says...but I wont be shocked if he does it in his own time...and if what I thought was obviously the start of the Tribulation...is nothing more then my own pressure on GOD to finish a creation he's only a tenth of the way through...
Technically, yes, what you say is possible. Is it probable? Not really. There are just too many unique developments from the last half century for Christ's second coming to be thousands of years away.

However, no one here is claiming that Christ is going to return tomorrow. There's still lots left that has to happen. I think it's possibly within our lifetimes, but it could be 2 or 3 more generations away. We really can't know.
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2009, 08:21 AM
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almost all of those reasons are things that have been happening every generation for thousands of years all over the world.

every generation thinks it will be the one when Christ returns. nothing new
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:31 PM
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Reason number 102...The Bears have signed a franchise quarterback.
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by que
almost all of those reasons are things that have been happening every generation for thousands of years all over the world.

every generation thinks it will be the one when Christ returns. nothing new
Really? I didn't know they had nuclear weapons and satellite communications thousands of years ago?
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by que
almost all of those reasons are things that have been happening every generation for thousands of years all over the world.

every generation thinks it will be the one when Christ returns. nothing new
You have to look at the signs in context. The problem has been people have been Biblically illiterate, or mistranslated them. Like Nate said there are many signs that were impossible to fulfill even 30 years ago! And all of the others have been intensifying and or are novel.

Study the signs, go back and read them point for point, instead of just making blanket statements like "bah, people have said that for years!"

Last edited by Vizion; 04-03-2009 at 08:51 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2009, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
Well, a huge percentage of the Bible is prophecy. (Somewhere around a 1/3) If we weren't supposed to be paying attention to it, then why would GOD waste so much time giving out these visions? (obviously, he wouldn't have)

Prophecy has many purposes including:

* preventing believers from being deceived by false prophets/christs, * helping believers to face a tulmultuous world without worry or fear (it helps in knowing that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better, but they are still guaranteed to get better for believers),
*it helps add a sense of urgency to our mission work
*helps us to prioritize what's important and what's not (do we send missionaries to a village in India that has never heard the Gospel, or do we instead use that money to put a new carpet in the church?).


Looking at current events in the news today, those Christians who know prophecy understand that this current "world peace at all costs" movement and the emerging global market are all major signs that the time of the Anti-Christ is very near (probably within our lifetimes).

Revelation 22:7
"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
Had to pick on NateR...
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2009, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
Really? I didn't know they had nuclear weapons and satellite communications thousands of years ago?
You dont know the Prophecy is related to either....and you dont know how much more advanced either field might grow or need to be for the Tribulation

for all you know...the Tribulation is thousands of years into the future, the transmissions are interstella satelites, and the weapons are able to be dropped from space.

you simply dont know
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2009, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn
you simply dont know
And neither do you. The difference is that I'm willing to learn and study. You've obviously consigned yourself to perpetual ignorance.

You claim that prophecy is impossible for us to understand so we shouldn't even bother. So, you never answered the question of why GOD would fill 1/3rd of the Bible with prophetical visions and predictions that are absolutely useless to us.
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