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  #21  
Old 01-15-2014, 07:17 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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i can't pretend to know what was going on in this guys head .. was he like that director (scott??) who jumped off a bridge cuz he was dying of brain cancer and didnt want his family to go through him fading away? who knows .. but i wouldn't go as far as saying that suicide is a selfish act ...

always good to see good discussion on here tho ... interesting views!

just waiting for dave's view on this so i can get the correct perspective on things!!!! .. just kidding dave .. really!
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2014, 07:48 PM
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There are people I know, who tell me that comitting Suicide is the unforgiveable sin. The only problem I have with that, is that I know that someone who takes their own life is not in a sound frame of mind, and I think for that reason, it probably isnt the unforgivable sin.

I know enough about anxiety to know that the mind has the ability to honnestly exist in different states...and that whilst in one state, that which appears fine and normal, is absolutely not in a heightened state of anxiety, I think a very similar thing occures with serious depression, although I dont think that mind states are to blame for the cause of that, whereas with anxiety I think they are.

Both come down to the same thing. You are not in your right mind. You can not judge clearly, you can not grasp certain absolute truths, your grasp on reality, in terms of certain ways of feeling...is absolutely wrong and messed up, and you can not break out of that mind set.

Either way, questions have to be asked, about how he was feeling, because, trust me when I say, almost never are suicides completely out of the blue. There are warning signs I think, particularly as close as a married relationship.

There is one other possiblity. In the post modern world, there are easy and quick ways to kill oneself....Hanging, is not one of them. Now I do not know this guy...but I do know of practises that involve ligature play, where occasionally, people die by accident. There cant be much disputing with blowing your head off, or swallowing to many pills....but Hanging oneself isnt as easy as it sounds, or, easy to get it wrong if your aim was not to kill yourself, but some form of self harm, or on occasions, I have even heard some ligature practises are related to sexual gratification.

Post mortems can help...for example if no note was left, but there were other toxins in the blood that could distort ones sences, then there really is the possibility that if none of the family, or friends were aware the guy was suicidal, there are no good motives, like financial ruin, or blackmail...and there were extensive plans for the future, combined with no track record of mental instability or depression...all i'm saying is that a noose, more then any other method, doesnt always neccessatate suicide...and in the case of a hanging...WHY he hanged himself is as important as the fact he did hang himself. the same can not be said for any other type of method (except for sabotaged self harm obv)
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2014, 07:54 PM
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The power of His name is so great that even in speaking it demons flee in terror.
I saw that happen once.
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2014, 07:58 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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There are people I know, who tell me that comitting Suicide is the unforgiveable sin. The only problem I have with that, is that I know that someone who takes their own life is not in a sound frame of mind, and I think for that reason, it probably isnt the unforgivable sin.

I know enough about anxiety to know that the mind has the ability to honnestly exist in different states...and that whilst in one state, that which appears fine and normal, is absolutely not in a heightened state of anxiety, I think a very similar thing occures with serious depression, although I dont think that mind states are to blame for the cause of that, whereas with anxiety I think they are.

Both come down to the same thing. You are not in your right mind. You can not judge clearly, you can not grasp certain absolute truths, your grasp on reality, in terms of certain ways of feeling...is absolutely wrong and messed up, and you can not break out of that mind set.

Either way, questions have to be asked, about how he was feeling, because, trust me when I say, almost never are suicides completely out of the blue. There are warning signs I think, particularly as close as a married relationship.

There is one other possiblity. In the post modern world, there are easy and quick ways to kill oneself....Hanging, is not one of them. Now I do not know this guy...but I do know of practises that involve ligature play, where occasionally, people die by accident. There cant be much disputing with blowing your head off, or swallowing to many pills....but Hanging oneself isnt as easy as it sounds, or, easy to get it wrong if your aim was not to kill yourself, but some form of self harm, or on occasions, I have even heard some ligature practises are related to sexual gratification.

Post mortems can help...for example if no note was left, but there were other toxins in the blood that could distort ones sences, then there really is the possibility that if none of the family, or friends were aware the guy was suicidal, there are no good motives, like financial ruin, or blackmail...and there were extensive plans for the future, combined with no track record of mental instability or depression...all i'm saying is that a noose, more then any other method, doesnt always neccessatate suicide...and in the case of a hanging...WHY he hanged himself is as important as the fact he did hang himself. the same can not be said for any other type of method (except for sabotaged self harm obv)
i believe that's how david carradine died .. the initial thought was suicide ... but turns out it wasn't ..

not saying that this is the case ..
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2014, 08:52 PM
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I think you know the difference between judging someone's analysis when it seeks to clear the subject of an unfair, biased judgement and someone who is completely unknown to you that did something terrible that didn't affect you personally in any form, Clearly it isn't our rightful place to judge/declare this man "selfish" when we cannot comprehend what this man was going through that led him to make a decision to end his life. you sound like someone justifying abortion, i know you well enough to know you wouldn't let people get away with this logic if they were trying to convince you it is okay to kill their own baby, and then call it just a "decision"

There is a right way to judge and a wrong way. nope, you can't say it is wrong, and then say, oh wait a minute, i know the right way to judge-----i have been clear that it is perfectly acceptable to judge and I agree with you that there is a right way to judge, which is by someone's fruit, that's biblical, and this guys fruit is that he murdered someone, and i don't care why he did it, he murdered someone---himself, that is his fruit and the bible tells me to judge him on itIt's best in a situation like this to #1 praise and worship GOD, and then pray God takes control and to pray for Cat and her family - that the Lord would USE them for his kingdom.
well, judging is judging, you can judge right and you can judge wrong, if it is wrong to judge someone as wrong, it is wrong to judge someone as right, it has to go both ways
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  #26  
Old 01-15-2014, 08:55 PM
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i believe that's how david carradine died .. the initial thought was suicide ... but turns out it wasn't ..

not saying that this is the case ..
Me neither.

But when ever the Suicide is Hanging, you have to ask....more so these days because its relatively easy and painless to die in thoughtless manners...anyone with access to a firearm, anyone with access to a blade, anyone with access to any form of pain medication, anyone with access to a motor (that doesnt have a catalytic converter ) anyone who has access to somewhere more then ten feet off the ground. Those methods are common and easy...you dont have to plan, you dont have to think, and they are quick and relatively, one presumes, painless.

Hanging is not. You have to plan where, you have to find material, and structures that are weight bearing, and you have to know what length to measure the ligature ideally...most people who hang themselves, probably dont do it right, and probably end up suffocating instead I would imagine.

thats not a nice, quick, painless, easy way to go...so if it IS suicide, I shall never be able to understand, why anyone would choose that method deliberatley...okay, if you were in prison and didnt have access to any other method.

The autopsy should be able to explain I would imagine, when viewed in conjunction with the actual scene of the death. However you view it...its nasty, nasty, nasty...and his family doesnt deserve it anymore then he might have done if it was an accident. This sort of death, more then any other, except perhaps dissapearing or going missing, must be the hardest thing to deal with from the families point of view. They will be asking themselves, if it was something they said or did...if only they hadnt, if only they had...and it must make it twice as bad if you are in the public eye, especially if it was an accident...the embarissment maybe, the difficult explaination...

...that poor woman.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2014, 09:08 PM
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well, judging is judging, you can judge right and you can judge wrong, if it is wrong to judge someone as wrong, it is wrong to judge someone as right, it has to go both ways
Bro, I agree with you totally on that end! What this man did to himself was wrong, and it is right, always to judge wrong...actions.

Calling what he did "selfish" which some have done here, and on another MMA forum I'm on is wrongly judging him. I say that only because we don't know what drove him to make such a decision...he may have been severely ill, or on drugs, or whatever, it doesn't matter because we don't know. Judging his actions wrong is right, but judging the reasons we make the decisions we make no matter how right we may be is wrong simply because we can't know. Only God can know.

I haven't stuck up for anyone this much on here since the last time someone judged my boy Jon Jones on here
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2014, 09:09 PM
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I saw that happen once.
Do tell, I want to hear this.
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2014, 11:14 PM
Bonnie Bonnie is online now
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
i can't pretend to know what was going on in this guys head .. was he like that director (scott??) who jumped off a bridge cuz he was dying of brain cancer and didnt want his family to go through him fading away? who knows .. but i wouldn't go as far as saying that suicide is a selfish act ...

always good to see good discussion on here tho ... interesting views!

just waiting for dave's view on this so i can get the correct perspective on things!!!! .. just kidding dave .. really!
I wonder how people decide on the "method" they will use?

Apparently, Tony Scott did not have a brain tumor. I know that's what the news was reporting at the time of his death, but his family denied the rumor and the coroner also stated they found no underlying health issue or cancer:

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Within hours of his death, a rumor began circulating that a possible motive for his suicide was that he had been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. Both his widow and his brother Ridley categorically denied the rumor. On August 22, LA County coroner's spokesman Ed Winters said the two notes Scott left behind made no mention of any health issues[45] but neither the police nor the family disclosed what was on those notes.[46]

On October 22, 2012, the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office announced that cause of death was "multiple blunt force injuries". Therapeutic levels of mirtazapine and eszopiclone were in his system at the time of death.[47] A coroner's official also affirmed Scott "did not have any serious underlying medical conditions" and was not suffering from cancer.
I liked how Neezy put it, it's a selfish act, but we cannot paint every person who commits suicide as a selfish person. I believe some people who commit suicide are totally "self-absorbed" as Flo said, and kill themselves for the sake of their own hide. For example, those who kill their spouses or others and THEN kill themselves so they don't have to face the consequences. Also, suicide by cop...I think there is definitely a selfish element in that.

I don't agree with Adam about depression and self pitying people. Self pitying people are into "attention", that's the point, "look at me, poor pitiful me..." so committing suicide would be defeating their purpose. lol Whereas, someone who is suffering from serious depression, or mental illness, they are coming from a different place, a different kind of darkness. Some people may get there by their own hand due to chemical/drug abuse that causes changes in their brain; some people may be prescribed drugs that have unintended consequences such as suicidal thoughts, while others are born with faulty genetics/heredity, or, a "perfect storm" is created due to natural occurrences in the body like hormones that have gone terribly wrong.
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  #30  
Old 01-16-2014, 12:11 AM
adamt adamt is offline
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I wonder how people decide on the "method" they will use?

Apparently, Tony Scott did not have a brain tumor. I know that's what the news was reporting at the time of his death, but his family denied the rumor and the coroner also stated they found no underlying health issue or cancer:



I liked how Neezy put it, it's a selfish act, but we cannot paint every person who commits suicide as a selfish person. I believe some people who commit suicide are totally "self-absorbed" as Flo said, and kill themselves for the sake of their own hide. For example, those who kill their spouses or others and THEN kill themselves so they don't have to face the consequences. Also, suicide by cop...I think there is definitely a selfish element in that.

I don't agree with Adam about depression and self pitying people. Self pitying people are into "attention", that's the point, "look at me, poor pitiful me..." so committing suicide would be defeating their purpose. lol Whereas, someone who is suffering from serious depression, or mental illness, they are coming from a different place, a different kind of darkness. Some people may get there by their own hand due to chemical/drug abuse that causes changes in their brain; some people may be prescribed drugs that have unintended consequences such as suicidal thoughts, while others are born with faulty genetics/heredity, or, a "perfect storm" is created due to natural occurrences in the body like hormones that have gone terribly wrong.
actually bonnie, we might be agreeing on that, I guess my point is that you don't really hear about the real depressed people cause they aren't seeking attention, yet we all hear about this clinical depression. I am not at all talking about postpartum blues, or side effects or ptsd, I know those things are legit, but as a pastor I have seen and heard more than my fair share of depression stories and a lot of them are self inflicted problems that they want to blame on satan, and they are just wallowing in self pity feeling sorry for themselves. we live in a world where everyone wants a label and those in charge are all too happy to label others. I know people now who want their kids to be labeled autistic and the best they can get is aspergers, but they insist of having their kid labeled to justify their poor parenting, which consists of sitting their kids in front of the tv all the time. I know kids who are perfectly normal little boys that their schools want to medicate them for adhd because they have a hard time focusing, but isn't that normal for boys? so I acknowledge real depression, but I think you hit the nail on the head saying the real depressed people aren't seeking attention for it
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