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  #21  
Old 03-30-2009, 11:19 AM
mscomc
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Originally Posted by Neezar
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that there is very little chance of an error or that it happens more often than people think?



Well damage happens alot more then you think. There a tons of potential mutagens that you have probably come across and didnt know it. Certain bromide based compounds, radioactive waste that has been "dumped" in a region near you didnt know about, certain hexavalent substances in dumped in water supply, certain solvents etc etc

Nate was right, that the cell can repair this damage most of the time (99.99999999%). But the system is not fool proof, even if you can use a homologous chromosome to repair the damage...because there is always a possibility that you dont induce damage in the middle of mitotic division...now you have a higher chance for error. But nevertheless mutation is slow, and any proposed hypothesis with it as the sole means of any kind of evolution indicates that it would take BILLIONS of years to notice a very significant changen in an organism. What we dub as significant, can be subjective...hope that cleared it up

Take care.
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  #22  
Old 03-30-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by NateR
Yes, I'd be interested to hear about that.
Sure ...... I have to go to my lab today, but when I get back, ill shed some light on this.

Take care.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mscomc
Well, I was only reffering to my disagreement with your definition of entropy. I was not really talking about the effects of a radio wave on DNA. I was just using it as example because i thought your orginal definition of the second law was flawed. The part of the law you stated is true for ISOLATED systems, not closed or open .

BUT...adressing your new points.

Now I just want to say something, and please dont take me as arrogant, flashy or mean spritied: But I am doing my masters in bio-chemisty....I am fully aware of the repair machinery used in cell control, molecular regulation and other areas......I beleive you are mentioning that if a nucleotide base pair is damaged, the repiar machinery can use a homologous chromosome to repair the problem....Did you know this has an error rate of 1/ 10^9 nucleotides? This may sound small, but all it takes is one small mutation and that cell will now divide, and divide and divide via mitosis, the error rate is regardless of how "bad" the damage is. If there is 9 damaged nucleotide base pairs instead of one, now there is just a 0.0000001% chance of improper repair. If you want, I can really go in depth in regards to the repair machinery (maybe for another topic )

I also fully agree that you cannot add information to genome via ionizing radiation. Any change (benefical or not) comes from an impairment of a normal genomic pathway, so in a way you are loosing information.

I was clarifying what you were trying to say because from what I read it sounded more like you were re-enforcing Nate's statement about entrophy instead of arguing the point. Any change is an impairment and losing info. Therefore, to me that kinda equals entropy.

(note: I'm saying this with the basic idea that any change that is benefical is very rare and accidental. )
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  #24  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mscomc



Well damage happens alot more then you think.
Oh, don't I know it! I am a nurse. I literally see it everyday!
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  #25  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:29 PM
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Oh, don't I know it! I am a nurse. I literally see it everyday!

You are a nurse? Hey awsome, what kind of medicine do you practice? Maybe we can have discussions of funny experiences you have had....i have like 30 doctors in my family...they all tell me stuff

Anyway, I think I now see where you and nate may be comming from. Nate orginally said that according to the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy of a system will increase over time, essentially more molecular "chaos" as it is reffered to as. And he is partially correct in that statement...... The entropy of a system will increase in this way, BUT ONLY IN AN ISOLATED Thermo System As I mentioned before, a thermo system that is isolated is one that cannot exchange work (usually in the form of heat) and matter (usually solid mass). Now, Nate is correct in saying that an evolved species is suppose to have evolved for the better in the sense that it is less "chaotic", and hes right, so this would seemingly go against the second law. However, Biological organisms have been classified (through many years of Bio-thermodynamics) to be Open thermo systems. An open system can exchange matter and energy readily (I just randomly gave radio waves as an example of energy), and thus order (or a decrease in entropy) is possible. This is one of the major arguments to counter against what many creationists (not trying to generalize here, sorry if it upsets anyone) say about the second law.

To further complicate things (sorry 'bout this ). There is really no such thing as a perfect Isolated system, unless you are talking about the UNIVERSE as a whole...and many creationists would say if the Universe is an isolated system then therefore all process' should lead to an increase in entropy.... BUT,opponents of this would say... Entropy is a pathway independent energy function. It is defined mathematically as:

Entropychange = Entropyfinal - Entropy initial

In other words, it doesnt matter that what happens in between, as long as we end up with an eventual increase in entropy, then evolution is possible becasue the small decreases in entropy of a living oragnisms evolution would be small compared to the LARGE increases in entropy from other systems: like a stars nuclear fusion etc... Therfore the NET entropy of the entire system (our universe) can still be increasing....


Phewww, that was alot to right...hope I got that across.

I'll talk about some ways that organisms can naturally increase their genome size by adding more information to the existing information. Ill start with simple organims like bacteria and then I'll move my way up to humans

But now I need a snack , all this writing.

Oh Neezar, by the way, My name is MALCOM, nice to meet you.

Last edited by mscomc; 03-30-2009 at 05:52 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:38 PM
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*fart*









I got nothing to contribute
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  #27  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:41 PM
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*fart*









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I know the feeling
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscomc
You are a nurse? Hey awsome, what kind of medicine do you practice? Maybe we can have discussions of funny experiences you have had....i have like 30 doctors in my family...they all tell me stuff

Anyway, I think I now see where you and nate may be comming from. Nate orginally said that according to the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy of a system will increase over time, essentially more molecular "chaos" as it is reffered to as. And he is partially correct in that statement...... The entropy of a system will increase in this way, BUT ONLY IN AN ISOLATED Thermo System As I mentioned before, a thermo system that is isolated is one that cannot exchange work (usually in the form of heat) and matter (usually solid mass). Now, Nate is correct in saying that an evolved species is suppose to have evolved for the better in the sense that it is less "chaotic", and hes right, so this would seemingly go against the second law. However, Biological organisms have been classified (through many years of Bio-thermodynamics) to be Open thermo systems. An open system can exchange matter and energy readily (I just randomly gave radio waves as an example of energy), and thus order (or a decrease in entropy) is possible. This is one of the major arguments to counter against what many creationists (not trying to generalize here, sorry if it upsets anyone) say about the second law.

To further complicate things (sorry 'bout this ). There is really no such thing as a perfect Isolated system, unless you are talking about the UNIVERSE as a whole...and many creationists would say if the Universe is an isolated system then therefore all process' such lead to an increase in entropy.... BUT,opponents of this would say... Entropy is a pathway independent energy function. It is defined mathematically as:

Entropychange = Entropyfinal - Entropy initial

In other words, it doesnt matter that what happens in between, as long as we end up with an eventual increase in entropy, then evolution is possible becasue the small decreases in entropy of a living oragnisms evolution would be small compared to the LARGE increases in entropy from other systems: like a stars nuclear fusion etc... Therfore the NET entropy of the entire system (our universe) can still be increasing....


Phewww, that was alot to right...hope I got that across.

I'll talk about some ways that organisms can naturally increase their genome size by adding more information to the existing information. Ill start with simple organims like bacteria and then I'll move my way up to humans

But now I need a snack , all this writing.

Oh Neezar, by the way, My name is MALCOM, nice to meet you.
Hey, Malcom. I'm Denise (Neesy or Neezar, whatever you prefer, lol).
I am a rookie RN in the Emergency Room. And as far as NET entropy....

I don't care how my entropy compares to a star's entropy. It is still entropy. After all, with humans it really is all about me.

And to your comment 'evolution is possible' well, entropy is probable.
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Neezar
Hey, Malcom. I'm Denise (Neesy or Neezar, whatever you prefer, lol).
I am a rookie RN in the Emergency Room. And as far as NET entropy....

I don't care how my entropy compares to a star's entropy. It is still entropy. After all, with humans it really is all about me.

And to your comment 'evolution is possible' well, entropy is probable.

Hey you practice emergency medicine? HA, coolio, two my uncles are ER attendings in philadelphia. Man I have heard some of ther weirdest things... and some tragic things. From what they tell me, the ER medical staff are some of the unsung heroes of medicine, especially the nurses with all they have to put up with.

Hey get this... my one uncle completed medical school here in Canada before doing is ER residency in the states. He told me, when he did his ER rotation, he saw 1 gunshot wound by a BB gun in the entire 3 months he was there. When he got to Philly, he saw 15 in his first week....Not to poke fun at gun violence (or the difference in countries, IM NOT SAYING CANADA IS BETTER THEN THE US)....but he told me you have be really on your toes the whole time. You guys have a really demanding job, and should really be commended for it
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  #30  
Old 03-30-2009, 05:55 PM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Originally Posted by mscomc
Hey get this... my one uncle completed medical school here in Canada before doing is ER residency in the states. He told me, when he did his ER rotation, he saw 1 gunshot wound by a BB gun in the entire 3 months he was there. When he got to Philly, he saw 15 in his first week....Not to poke fun at gun violence (or the difference in countries, IM NOT SAYING CANADA IS BETTER THEN THE US)....but he told me you have be really on your toes the whole time. You guys have a really demanding job, and should really be commended for it
Gun violence in a big city is always going to be much higher than normal. It's still a pretty rare occurrence in most of the US rural areas (which is still a majority of the country).
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