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  #171  
Old 12-23-2012, 01:57 PM
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Wow. Up until this point in my 42-year old life, I really, honestly had no concept of how fundamentally different American culture is from Canadian, or Anglo-European. On the surface they appear much the same, but underneath, at the roots...not at all. I guess I need to frequent political forums a little more.

Anyway, we're 17 pages in, and it's playing out much like it is in society at large. Two sides are pointing fingers, accomplishing nothing, doing selective readings of both bible and statistics to prop up their beliefs and agendas when in fact the argument at hand is completely inconsequential to the actual problem. This is not a gun control issue, at least not at this point because that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The problem is the state of American society today not only allows this sort of thing to happen, but seemingly propagates it. And it's snowballing. Much like an addict at an intervention, the first step has to be an admission that there is a problem, by all sides. Only then, by everyone working together with political posturing and crowing aside, can real solutions be decided upon & implemented. Continue to ignore the real issues while focusing on (in comparison) trivial arguments, and that snowball I mentioned is only getting bigger and gaining momentum.

Don't choose a side, don't hide behind a political agenda, don't shift responsibility, don't place blame, don't accept that these tragedies are the cost of freedom...don't talk...act...act as one and prove that you are ONE Nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.
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  #172  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:26 PM
F34R F34R is offline
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Originally Posted by wavetar View Post
Wow. Up until this point in my 42-year old life, I really, honestly had no concept of how fundamentally different American culture is from Canadian, or Anglo-European. On the surface they appear much the same, but underneath, at the roots...not at all. I guess I need to frequent political forums a little more.

Anyway, we're 17 pages in, and it's playing out much like it is in society at large. Two sides are pointing fingers, accomplishing nothing, doing selective readings of both bible and statistics to prop up their beliefs and agendas when in fact the argument at hand is completely inconsequential to the actual problem. This is not a gun control issue, at least not at this point because that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The problem is the state of American society today not only allows this sort of thing to happen, but seemingly propagates it. And it's snowballing. Much like an addict at an intervention, the first step has to be an admission that there is a problem, by all sides. Only then, by everyone working together with political posturing and crowing aside, can real solutions be decided upon & implemented. Continue to ignore the real issues while focusing on (in comparison) trivial arguments, and that snowball I mentioned is only getting bigger and gaining momentum.

Don't choose a side, don't hide behind a political agenda, don't shift responsibility, don't place blame, don't accept that these tragedies are the cost of freedom...don't talk...act...act as one and prove that you are ONE Nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.
A lot of Americans do this, daily... our government doesn't. Specifically, I don't have an ounce of my being involved in politics, shifting responsibility, nor do I blame others for things they don't do. Tragedies are a cost of life. I don't rely on talking, I act, period.

I just can't understand things that others do... one in particular; our President.

How, after four years, does he come on tv after a shooting, and claim that the majority of Americans want guns gone? How does he NOT know, or not care about, how things he wants to say that won't actually help anything that it's being promoted to fix?

All the data over the past hundreds of years is there. People that actually think about, research, etc., these things have presented this information to others, kinda like the articles posted here, etc., yet that information isn't used properly by the people we elected to do what is best for US, not them.
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  #173  
Old 12-23-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wavetar View Post
Wow. Up until this point in my 42-year old life, I really, honestly had no concept of how fundamentally different American culture is from Canadian, or Anglo-European. On the surface they appear much the same, but underneath, at the roots...not at all. I guess I need to frequent political forums a little more.

Anyway, we're 17 pages in, and it's playing out much like it is in society at large. Two sides are pointing fingers, accomplishing nothing, doing selective readings of both bible and statistics to prop up their beliefs and agendas when in fact the argument at hand is completely inconsequential to the actual problem. This is not a gun control issue, at least not at this point because that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The problem is the state of American society today not only allows this sort of thing to happen, but seemingly propagates it. And it's snowballing. Much like an addict at an intervention, the first step has to be an admission that there is a problem, by all sides. Only then, by everyone working together with political posturing and crowing aside, can real solutions be decided upon & implemented. Continue to ignore the real issues while focusing on (in comparison) trivial arguments, and that snowball I mentioned is only getting bigger and gaining momentum.

Don't choose a side, don't hide behind a political agenda, don't shift responsibility, don't place blame, don't accept that these tragedies are the cost of freedom...don't talk...act...act as one and prove that you are ONE Nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.
Hmmm, sanctimonious much?

The anti-gun crowd (in the media - not referring to specific people in this thread) has been attempting to capitalize on this tragedy to advance their own agenda right from the very start. If you don't approve of us arguing in defense of our freedoms, then that's your problem. I'm not going to apologize for it.

To jump into the middle of a conversation and act like you are the lone voice of reason trying to placate fighting toddlers is the ultimate in arrogance. So go back and read the ENTIRE thread from start to finish and then decide if you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation. If you still feel that the conversation is somehow beneath you after all that, then don't post in this thread again.

We know what the real issue is: We live in a fallen and corrupted world that is ruled by Satan. Evil is a very real thing in this world and it will continue to be until Christ's return. That's why bad things happen to good people, but even that statement is not entirely accurate, because the Bible is clear that there is no such things as a good person. The only exception to that being Jesus Christ, of course.

In church this morning, our pastor addressed the tragedy in Connecticut and told us of a similar event that is tied in with the Christmas story. Matthew 2:16-18 talks of all the young male children who were massacred in Bethlehem by order of King Herod in an attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth. The soldiers were ordered to kill any male child ages 2 and under. Not only did GOD allow that to happen, He told the prophet Jeremiah that it would happen hundreds of years before Christ was born. So the seemingly senseless slaughter of young children was a small part of the plan of salvation from the very beginning.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure not a single kid was killed in Bethlehem by an "assault rifle" on that night. So the problem is not guns, the problem is human nature. We are hopelessly evil, every single one of us, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's why we need Jesus.
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  #174  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:24 PM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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Originally Posted by wavetar View Post
Wow. Up until this point in my 42-year old life, I really, honestly had no concept of how fundamentally different American culture is from Canadian, or Anglo-European. On the surface they appear much the same, but underneath, at the roots...not at all. I guess I need to frequent political forums a little more.

Anyway, we're 17 pages in, and it's playing out much like it is in society at large. Two sides are pointing fingers, accomplishing nothing, doing selective readings of both bible and statistics to prop up their beliefs and agendas when in fact the argument at hand is completely inconsequential to the actual problem. This is not a gun control issue, at least not at this point because that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The problem is the state of American society today not only allows this sort of thing to happen, but seemingly propagates it. And it's snowballing. Much like an addict at an intervention, the first step has to be an admission that there is a problem, by all sides. Only then, by everyone working together with political posturing and crowing aside, can real solutions be decided upon & implemented. Continue to ignore the real issues while focusing on (in comparison) trivial arguments, and that snowball I mentioned is only getting bigger and gaining momentum.

Don't choose a side, don't hide behind a political agenda, don't shift responsibility, don't place blame, don't accept that these tragedies are the cost of freedom...don't talk...act...act as one and prove that you are ONE Nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.
How does American society "allow" this sort of thing to happen exactly?
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  #175  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
Hmmm, sanctimonious much?

The anti-gun crowd (in the media - not referring to specific people in this thread) has been attempting to capitalize on this tragedy to advance their own agenda right from the very start. If you don't approve of us arguing in defense of our freedoms, then that's your problem. I'm not going to apologize for it.

To jump into the middle of a conversation and act like you are the lone voice of reason trying to placate fighting toddlers is the ultimate in arrogance. So go back and read the ENTIRE thread from start to finish and then decide if you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation. If you still feel that the conversation is somehow beneath you after all that, then don't post in this thread again.

We know what the real issue is: We live in a fallen and corrupted world that is ruled by Satan. Evil is a very real thing in this world and it will continue to be until Christ's return. That's why bad things happen to good people, but even that statement is not entirely accurate, because the Bible is clear that there is no such things as a good person. The only exception to that being Jesus Christ, of course.

In church this morning, our pastor addressed the tragedy in Connecticut and told us of a similar event that is tied in with the Christmas story. Matthew 2:16-18 talks of all the young male children who were massacred in Bethlehem by order of King Herod in an attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth. The soldiers were ordered to kill any male child ages 2 and under. Not only did GOD allow that to happen, He told the prophet Jeremiah that it would happen hundreds of years before Christ was born. So the seemingly senseless slaughter of young children was a small part of the plan of salvation from the very beginning.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure not a single kid was killed in Bethlehem by an "assault rifle" on that night. So the problem is not guns, the problem is human nature. We are hopelessly evil, every single one of us, and there is nothing we can do about it. That's why we need Jesus.
You respond as if I'm talking directly to you, which I clearly am not. I have read the entire thread, and have posted 3 or 4 times in it, so it's not like I suddenly jumped in. I'm not presenting a pro or anti stance on the gun issue, simply pointing out it's really more of a side bar that's deflecting attention (not solely in this thread, but in the public domain as well) from the many socioeconomic issues causing the decline of a great country. I don't recall asking for an apology from you or anyone else. If by "adding anything intelligent to the conversation", you mean jumping down the throat of someone who either doesn't share your beliefs or offers a different point of view, then no, clearly I have nothing to offer in that regard.
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  #176  
Old 12-24-2012, 01:35 AM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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We Americans (at least, the ones who are constitutionalists) believe our rights are God-given. It is a belief, RNC. Like faith. Those God-given rights in which we believe are confirmed by our Constitution.

You shouldn't belittle us and our Constitution, which we cherish, by asking if "God wrote it" or if it says "in the bible that guns are a right". You are very disrespectful to ask for clarification and claim you aren't joking while making those two statements ridiculing our beliefs. We don't ask that you accept them, they are ours. Please respect that.
come on flo ... i am not ridiculing you ... i am saying, i have been on here for a while now, and between here and the christianity section, it has been said that all things from god is biblical or can be found in the bible, ie homosexuality is wrong, gay marriage is wrong etc .. because it is in the bible ... that is why i am asking about the constitution and the bible ... are all the rights in there traceable to the bible??? i mean, as a canadian i can say that universal health care is my god given right ... i mean, i can say that all i want, but i doubt i can find any biblical sense to say it is god given .. nate provided a quote about jesus asking for people to get swords ... but jesus also said he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword when one of his apostles was seemingly defending jesus ...
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  #177  
Old 12-24-2012, 02:10 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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I didn't think you were being sanctimonious, Wavetar, but I did have that ? about one of the things you said.

How is American society allowing for these things to happen? Who knew Adam Lanza was a killer until he killed?
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  #178  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
The guy rating the statistic as "mostly true" doesn't seem all that convinced himself. However, unless they distinguish between crimes committed by illegally-owned firearms and crimes committed by legally-owned firearms, then the statistic seems intentionally misleading.

Plus, as PTM stated, including suicide statistics is definitely misleading.

The question here is, "does LEGAL gun ownership increase the crime rate?" I say no. I believe it has just the opposite effect.
Well maybe I'm missing something but everywhere I actually find reported stats to look at, the years of the stats reported are different. Like on one the numbers from the US are posted from 2010 and some of the other countries are reports from as early as 2003. That doesn't really seem fair.
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  #179  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by wavetar View Post
Wow. Up until this point in my 42-year old life, I really, honestly had no concept of how fundamentally different American culture is from Canadian, or Anglo-European. On the surface they appear much the same, but underneath, at the roots...not at all. I guess I need to frequent political forums a little more.

Anyway, we're 17 pages in, and it's playing out much like it is in society at large. Two sides are pointing fingers, accomplishing nothing, doing selective readings of both bible and statistics to prop up their beliefs and agendas when in fact the argument at hand is completely inconsequential to the actual problem. This is not a gun control issue, at least not at this point because that horse left the barn a long time ago.

The problem is the state of American society today not only allows this sort of thing to happen, but seemingly propagates it. And it's snowballing. Much like an addict at an intervention, the first step has to be an admission that there is a problem, by all sides. Only then, by everyone working together with political posturing and crowing aside, can real solutions be decided upon & implemented. Continue to ignore the real issues while focusing on (in comparison) trivial arguments, and that snowball I mentioned is only getting bigger and gaining momentum.

Don't choose a side, don't hide behind a political agenda, don't shift responsibility, don't place blame, don't accept that these tragedies are the cost of freedom...don't talk...act...act as one and prove that you are ONE Nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.
Any suggestions on those real solutions?
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  #180  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:00 AM
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A friend at work said she was talking with her kids about this and saying how sad it was that everyone would remember the shooter's name but no one would remember the kids/victims. Her kids decided to pick one of the victims and do something to remember them.

I like this idea and may have my boys do this. I think I will pick one also.
I'm going to pick Benjamin Wheeler.
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