At Least 26 Dead in Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

[adamt]

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

I don't know if u are serious or joking when providing an event that happened almost a century ago .... No one is saying knives, or planes or explosives can't kill people ... They are just saying guns are much more efficient ... And semi-automatic and assault weapons are even more efficient than regular guns ... And if these guns are readily available ... By legal or illegal means ... Things like this are going to happen ...

seriously?!!?!? guns are more efficient than a plane or bomb? I'm pretty sure that when one bang from a bomb kills dozen of people compared to one bang from a gun killing one person(or in this instance it took 3-11 bangs) then technically a bomb is about a hundred times more efficient



Umm.... things like this are going to happen if guns are available?!?!?!? I think the facts are that things are going to happen like even if guns aren't available. In fact guns stop things like this from happening, but you don't here about the massacres that are stopped!


in 2004 the assault ban expired, partly because the fbi and cia said it was unneccessary, and since then gun sales have skyrocketed, and crime rates have plummetted---- those are stats, whether it feels like it or not, that is reality

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

You might claim you need the right for protection and deffence...well you can do that with a peashooter you dont NEED a military weapon...so why bother having one...thats what I would challenge...

.what is an issue is that you can access weapons that have no real function other then military use.

A few months ago I heard a 20+ year military man making a comment. It was in the middle of a conversation about US in regards to world relations, etc. But this comment stuck out for me. He said something to the effect of :

You know why we don't have other military forces invading the US? It's not because our military is so powerful or so many. It's because they know that the US citizens are armed and they will have to face them, too.

I say the US would be committing suicide by banning law abiding citizens from owning firearms.

Originally Posted by wavetar

. 300 Million privately owned and registered guns (with how many others unknown?) means they can be easily had by anyone who really wants to have one, regardless of how draconian new gun laws may be.

Because of this, the U.S. .....

^Glad that info is out there.

[wavetar]

Originally Posted by flo

Good article and I agree with the former paragraph. You know I respect your opinion, wav, but to the latter - I disagree that it's because of economic inequality. I think it's a cultural problem, none of the shooters were poor, elderly, etc., although yes, they were definitely mentally ill and I agree with you there that our society may need to look for better solutions to help the mentally ill, or at least prevent them from harming others (like the man who was pushed in front of the subway train last week by a mentally disturbed man).

I'm a capitalist and don't think that income redistribution is the answer to anything. The "top two" in earning percentile are already supporting the rest of the population with entitlements, etc. Sadly, the ethic here has changed from "what can I do for my country (city, neighborhood, family)" to "what can they do for me?".

Understood Flo, and to be clear, I wasn't saying economic inequality was the sole cause of this, or any other mass shooting. My point was it's high time we (and I include Canada in this, we're kinda joined at the hip) took a serious look at the many internal issues which are leading to a breakdown in our societies. We concern ourselves with the rest of the world, yet our own houses are not in order, in fact, they are collapsing.

I agree the ethics are changing as you say, but the leaders of business and government have contributed mightily. Businesses by taking millions of jobs out of the nation's economy by out sourcing, and government by allowing this to happen. You can only take away so much before the strain begins to show, and attitudes begin to change for the worse.

There's a million books on socioeconomic issues, so I won't belabor the point here. I'm just saying big changes are needed. However, it has to begin with an acknowledgement that there is indeed a serious problem, and that it's a fundamental issue with our society. Without that, we remain divisive, ineffective, and powerless to make changes.

[TENNESSEAN]

Dave, no disrespect but you know absolutely nothing about guns. No sub machine guns where used. They are illegal you can own them with a license but its very hard to do.

[County Mike]

To everyone screaming for tougher gun laws. A little history lesson:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- ------------- -------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
Mexico established gun control in 1976. Crime is among the most urgent concerns facing Mexico. Mexican drug trafficking rings play a major role in the flow of cocaine, heroin, and marijuana transiting between Latin America and the United States. Drug trafficking and organized crime have also been a major source of violent crime in Mexico.

Mexico has experienced increasingly high crime rates, especially in major urban centers. Crime continues at high levels, and is repeatedly marked by violence, especially in Mexico City, Tijuana, Ciudad Juárez, Nuevo Laredo, Michoacan, and the state of Sinaloa. The high incidence of crime in Mexico has also poured across the border and influenced crime in the United States, including drugs, illegal immigration, and gangs.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
------------------------------
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti-gun control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

Switzerland issues every household a gun! Switzerland's government trains every adult they issue a rifle. Switzerland has the lowest gun related crime rate of any civilized country in the world! It's a no brainer! Don't let our government waste millions of our tax dollars in an effort to make all abiding citizens an easy target.

I'm a firm believer of the 2nd Amendment! If you are too, please make this go viral.
peace

[rearnakedchoke]

i don't think the intent is to go around and take away peoples guns ... but i can understand the fear around gun control being that potential first step in doing so ... i grew up in a house where guns were around for hunting ... we can get guns here, so its not like they are illegal ... you can't carry them around loaded or anything .. but there is no real need for that imo ...

[rearnakedchoke]

Originally Posted by adamt

seriously?!!?!? guns are more efficient than a plane or bomb? I'm pretty sure that when one bang from a bomb kills dozen of people compared to one bang from a gun killing one person(or in this instance it took 3-11 bangs) then technically a bomb is about a hundred times more efficient



Umm.... things like this are going to happen if guns are available?!?!?!? I think the facts are that things are going to happen like even if guns aren't available. In fact guns stop things like this from happening, but you don't here about the massacres that are stopped!


in 2004 the assault ban expired, partly because the fbi and cia said it was unneccessary, and since then gun sales have skyrocketed, and crime rates have plummetted---- those are stats, whether it feels like it or not, that is reality

when i say more efficient .. in the grand scheme of getting guns and ammo then making a bomb or hijscking a plane .. i don't know how many people die per year from planned bombings or hijacked planes used as weapons in the US ... but i am sure it is less than gun deaths ...

[adamt]

Originally Posted by County Mike

To everyone screaming for tougher gun laws. A little history lesson:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- ------------- -------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
Mexico established gun control in 1976. Crime is among the most urgent concerns facing Mexico. Mexican drug trafficking rings play a major role in the flow of cocaine, heroin, and marijuana transiting between Latin America and the United States. Drug trafficking and organized crime have also been a major source of violent crime in Mexico.

Mexico has experienced increasingly high crime rates, especially in major urban centers. Crime continues at high levels, and is repeatedly marked by violence, especially in Mexico City, Tijuana, Ciudad Juárez, Nuevo Laredo, Michoacan, and the state of Sinaloa. The high incidence of crime in Mexico has also poured across the border and influenced crime in the United States, including drugs, illegal immigration, and gangs.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
------------------------------
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti-gun control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

Switzerland issues every household a gun! Switzerland's government trains every adult they issue a rifle. Switzerland has the lowest gun related crime rate of any civilized country in the world! It's a no brainer! Don't let our government waste millions of our tax dollars in an effort to make all abiding citizens an easy target.

I'm a firm believer of the 2nd Amendment! If you are too, please make this go viral.
peace

very true, especially that you won't see it on the evening news, they obviously have an agenda here

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

when i say more efficient .. in the grand scheme of getting guns and ammo then making a bomb or hijscking a plane .. i don't know how many people die per year from planned bombings or hijacked planes used as weapons in the US ... but i am sure it is less than gun deaths ...

well if that is your basis for argument, then we don't even need to talk about homicide at all, let alone guns, because homicide isn't even in the top 15 causes of death anymore. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
So if that is the standard of "efficiency" then alcohol, obesity, automobiles and suicide are much more efficient at killing people. We really would need to look at banning alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, and most definitely abortion.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Neezar

A few months ago I heard a 20+ year military man making a comment. It was in the middle of a conversation about US in regards to world relations, etc. But this comment stuck out for me. He said something to the effect of :

You know why we don't have other military forces invading the US? It's not because our military is so powerful or so many. It's because they know that the US citizens are armed and they will have to face them, too.

I say the US would be committing suicide by banning law abiding citizens from owning firearms.




^Glad that info is out there.

The reason you never get invaded has nothing to do with your weapons. Its pure Geography....But you can be...and have been collonized. Your Whole way of being exists because various European Empires set up collonies on your soil. You may not think that that constitutes an invasion...and a full scale invasion you would be right, mainly, again due to the vastness...you are NOT one Country, but Fifty...in terms of countries...I think the French managed to invade the most of Continental America...But I can assure you also that when the British and others docked off your coasts, the land was FAR from empty. Now WTF do you suppose happened to the people who lived in those lands before your decendants conqurered. I very much doubt the vast majority of you are anything but the product of large scale immergration...Essentially your not "American" ethnically speaking at all. You are the living remains of the conquest that you guys never seem to speak about. The joke of making such a silly statement about invasion is on you...invasion is the reason you exist on that side of the world and not this! (at least for the vast majorty of people)

Modern day...Noone can attack the US coz the technology wont stretch that far without refueling...why do you think your so dependant on the West to be able to fight your wars? the same is true for you....thats why there are US bases all around Europe...its a half way point, because remove those bases and you'd be a seagoing force only...your aircraft would have to be launched, and would have to make stops on ships in order to even reach your enemies, let alone fight them.

Only Canada and mexico could invade you...you got out of Mexico by using the Republic of Texas as a shield during its collonialism period...and Canada...well you pre-empted any invasion attempt by trying to invade her right after the war of independance...unfortunately for you (in this case) there is several inland oceans between your nation and hers...and you werent very successful in your attempt...another thing you never hear Americans speak about...FAR from wanting simply to be free of British Rule...you then ACTIVELY marched on a nearby nation and tried to oppress its people. What a cheek considering how much you go on about rights and freedoms...perhaps those could be extended to the canadians also?

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by TENNESSEAN

Dave, no disrespect but you know absolutely nothing about guns. No sub machine guns where used. They are illegal you can own them with a license but its very hard to do.

I saw the photograph...it looks like a machine gun to me maybe its not technically...but since they already ban those apparently, perhaps they would ban the ones that look like them

I'm not suggesting giving up guns...simply, giving up those which look, or act like machine guns or military grade weapons. That has nothing to do with your right to bear arms...its to do with letting people of use of the firearms they need for protection and hunting...NOT for warfare just to make themselves feel powerful or leave them lying around where nut jobs can use them

You say the problem is with the Humans, not the guns...yeah well if the Humans are going to behave like children, and cant be trusted, then you take away the guns...its easier to sort the problem that way, rather then trying to fix the humans.