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  #21  
Old 01-30-2014, 07:43 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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great .. i got dave agreeing with me .. now i'm screwed!!!!!!!



haha .. kidding
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2014, 10:24 PM
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Exactly

So if anyone has the right to happiness...I guess its fine for anyone to do anything they want, at the expense of anyone else...and claim its GOD-Given.

A Company CEO is made happy by maximum profit...and so pays his workers as little as possible...I suppose thats fine?

A Sadist enjoys harming his Wife for fun...I suppose thats fine?

A King expects Loyalty from his Subjects....Well...That was fine until the 1770s

The Truth is...if its not in the Bible, it may not be "GOD Given" and the Bible tells us that we have naught but through Grace...and that GOD is a King...you follow Him...or you suffer eternal death.

The US Constitution, and the DOI are not Scripture, therefore they are fallable...and to say anyone should be able to go after whatever makes them happy, and put no limits on that, leaves the possibility open for Philosophers like Fredrich Nietzsche and those who enjoy some of his more dangerous philosophies like Adolf Hitler for example.
You asked the question, I gave you the answer. So you disagree? Of course you do. You're British!

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Its worse then that.

All men might be born free...but did those European-American Settlers actually believe that those who were enslaved were anything but animals...and the constitution does not say that these GOD given rights are present for animals...infact, biblically speaking, animals are put on earth to serve man, and for man to take possession of.

This is why Pragmatics matter with the US Constitution....the Words are missleading from a Religious, and Ethnic point of view.
Not true at all. The idea that Africans were subhumans and little more than animals is a result of Darwin's theories. Prior to that, slavery was purely an economic necessity going all the way back to Biblical times.

Also, the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776 and the first serious effort to ban slavery in America started in 1777. So, these men were completely aware of the disparity between American idealism and the reality.

Just because someone is a poor representative of an idea, doesn't make the idea false. If that were the case then you would just have to look at one Christian to be able to discredit all of Christianity.
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  #23  
Old 01-31-2014, 07:48 PM
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1) You asked the question, I gave you the answer. So you disagree? Of course you do. You're British!



2) Not true at all. The idea that Africans were subhumans and little more than animals is a result of Darwin's theories. Prior to that, slavery was purely an economic necessity going all the way back to Biblical times.

Also, the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776 and the first serious effort to ban slavery in America started in 1777. So, these men were completely aware of the disparity between American idealism and the reality.

3) Just because someone is a poor representative of an idea, doesn't make the idea false. If that were the case then you would just have to look at one Christian to be able to discredit all of Christianity.
1) Well thats just racist



2) Erm...news for you, Nathan...I think you find the British Slave Trade was slightly older then the American version, and that those traits which carried over into the American Slave Trade were nothing but a copy of their British counterparts. Now the British certainly believed that Africans were sub-human, and whilst it ended up being a skin colour issue...it didnt begin that way, because the British system, was, and later returned to, its Roman Heratage, which indescriminate of skin tone, considered largely everything outside of itself Barbarous, and therefore not civilized, and therefore, not proper humans. Most of North Europe, Africa, and the Orient, fell under this description...infact, what a horrible suprise it must have been when the Visigoths actually besieged Rome at one point.

So the ideal of slavery had nothing to do with Darwin, and the use of Slaves for anything other then private ownership was something invented by the British to run the Empire...and the American South was based on that system..So I beg to differ that Darwin had anything to do with it. This was well before Enlightenment Philosophies...and if you bother to note what a good proportion of the American Civil War was really all about, you will find that those in the south, whilst fully in compliance with the Constitution and DOI would not extend such privalage to slaves...I'm sorry but you cant claim that those land barons thought of their workers as some kind of Servants.

the blacks in the south were not Servants. There is a huge difference. Servants have rights, Servants are primarily free, Servants are primarily in servitude voluntarily. Slaves are owned. Slaves have no rights. Slaves are property and commodity, like livestock on a farm, like a herd of buffallo, or cattle. They do not have any freedom, save that given by whoever owns them.

3) Well, that IS true...but then, since when do you take seriously, the thoughts of those who are poor representatives? Would you take moral lessons from a hypocrit? Even if those moral lessons were true...and we despute that these are true in the first place when it comes to what you presume is "GOD-Given Rights"

I dont believe there is any such thing as Human Rights in terms of the absolute nature of Truth, only what man perscribes to man, in accordance with its culture, and according to its relative chronology and zeitgiest...after all...in Europe...as often inspired by Americans...they have gone mad with this ideal of "Human rights" to the extent that they cant even deport foreign convicted criminals, because apparently they have the right to "a family life" which would be ruined by returning them from whence they came...and how about the prison sufferegets, who believe that prisoners should be allowed to vote in general ellections, because everyone has the right to exercise their democratic right to vote...all of these, so the European Court of Human Rights would have us believe are "GOD-Given" aswell.

What a load of bollox
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:49 PM
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I think your logic here is flawed. Just because a few people abuse the concept of human rights doesn't make the concept itself false.

As Christians we understand that everything we have is given to us by GOD. From the breath in our lungs to the food in our bellies, even our life itself.

So, GOD grants life. No one claiming to be a Christian can deny that.

Liberty. A person's natural desire is for freedom. Of course that desire gets corrupted because we are sinful, so liberty in this sense is NOT the freedom to pursue immoral or evil desires. It's the freedom to pursue the desires that GOD has placed in each and every one of our hearts. This is something that is a bit more difficult for non-Christians to understand, but it should be another no-brainer for Christians.

This is also where the two greatest commandments come into play: love GOD above all else and treat others the way you would like to be treated. If you keep those two commandments, then you can never abuse your liberty. The Founding Fathers understood this and it's why they warned us that the great American experiment would fail if our country abandoned the Christian values that we were founded upon.

The pursuit of happiness is simply the drive to live our lives according to the unique design that GOD has given each and every one of us. For some that might be raising a family, for others it might be art or music, still others might have a bent towards animal husbandry or farming. The list goes on and people can even have combinations of multiple GOD-given desires.

Governments can only infringe upon those basic rights and they do that with rigor, all the time. Even America itself has become corrupted to the point where American citizens don't even understand what this country was founded upon. Some of those people end up in the government and they might even end up in the highest seats of government (like the Presidency for example).

So, it's an ideal that America was founded upon; but that doesn't mean that we are always the best representatives of that ideal.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:14 PM
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1) As Christians we understand that everything we have is given to us by GOD. From the breath in our lungs to the food in our bellies, even our life itself.

So, GOD grants life. No one claiming to be a Christian can deny that.

2) Liberty. A person's natural desire is for freedom. Of course that desire gets corrupted because we are sinful, so liberty in this sense is NOT the freedom to pursue immoral or evil desires. It's the freedom to pursue the desires that GOD has placed in each and every one of our hearts. This is something that is a bit more difficult for non-Christians to understand, but it should be another no-brainer for Christians.

This is also where the two greatest commandments come into play: love GOD above all else and treat others the way you would like to be treated. If you keep those two commandments, then you can never abuse your liberty. The Founding Fathers understood this and it's why they warned us that the great American experiment would fail if our country abandoned the Christian values that we were founded upon.

3) The pursuit of happiness is simply the drive to live our lives according to the unique design that GOD has given each and every one of us. For some that might be raising a family, for others it might be art or music, still others might have a bent towards animal husbandry or farming. The list goes on and people can even have combinations of multiple GOD-given desires.

Governments can only infringe upon those basic rights and they do that with rigor, all the time. Even America itself has become corrupted to the point where American citizens don't even understand what this country was founded upon. Some of those people end up in the government and they might even end up in the highest seats of government (like the Presidency for example).

So, it's an ideal that America was founded upon; but that doesn't mean that we are always the best representatives of that ideal.
1) Suddenly you've dropped calvinism have you again? You rightly (pardon the pun) use the word "Grant"

GOD GRANTS lots of things...just like Matt Hughes might Grant an interview...does it mean that the receptor has a "Right" to that?

NO...What GOD gives is discretionary....a GIFT...you have NO rights under a Supreme Monarchy...The reason you probably dont understand that is the fundemental problem here.

Who do you think GOD is? and where exactly do you think YOU fit in to the food chain. You've been in the Military, this should be a no-brainer! You dont have "Rights" except those given to you by Authority...England, for Centuries was runned by a Supreme Monarch, in EXACTLY the way Martial Law in the military works.

2) You have no degree in sociology I presume, or you would know that people do not always seek freedom. They usually are satisfied with whatever they are used to, and some people, are naturally submissive and would find the idea of "Freedom" as horrifying as an agrophobic person being pushed outside.

We have drives to survive, and instincts...but the only Spiritual desire we have is to seek for purpose, meaning and to understand ourselves...that is because we were made as a half, with GOD providing fulfilment...and that is why we search.

Give freedom to a people who are not, and never have been democratic, and you end up endagenering the whole geographic location. Give someone who has been locked up fourty years, complete freedom, and they will probably struggle to cope to do anything.

People can be trained, Nathan, to accept all kinds of things...Again, having been in the military, I am shocked by your responces above.

3) The persuit of happiness, and a Vocational Calling, are NOT the same...infact I can give you Biblical Examples, of what a load of bollox that is. Shall we start with Moses and his response, when GOD gave him his calling. infact, its more likely you will be called in a place well outside of your comfort zone.

That has the duel purpose of stopping one taking too much pride in ones own achievements, when really, one knows that it is only the strength of GOD that allows them to do something which they, themselves, are NOT good at.

I tell you what...Proove it too me....Back up each of your Rights with a passage of Scripture, and I'll consider your POV in more depth. oh yes...Nathan...YOU taught me well
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:40 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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i have to agree with dave .. as long as i have been on this site, i have been told that if it isn't in scripture, it isn't biblical .. nate, you said somewhere up ^^^^ that the founding fathers used the bible to determine what was just, but you didnt know the verses .... the term "god given right" is thrown around a lot, especially for gun rights .. LOL ... i have no problem with someone saying, we have a right to bear arms given to us by the founding fathers of this country .. but saying god given without backing it up gives it no merit ...
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:48 PM
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1) Suddenly you've dropped calvinism have you again?
Exactly what did I say that contradicts Calvinism? GOD grants life. It's a fact and that statement is fully in keeping with the 5 points of Calvinism.

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Again, having been in the military, I am shocked by your responces above.
Aaaand your knowledge of the military seems to be just as deficient as your knowledge of Calvinism.

People don't join the military because they hate freedom and like to be dominated. That's idiotic. American citizens join the military because they love freedom and understand that it's worth temporarily putting their own personal freedoms on hold in order to defend freedom for all other Americans.

I'll get around to responding to the rest of your comments later.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:37 PM
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1) Exactly what did I say that contradicts Calvinism? GOD grants life. It's a fact and that statement is fully in keeping with the 5 points of Calvinism.



2) Aaaand your knowledge of the military seems to be just as deficient as your knowledge of Calvinism.

People don't join the military because they hate freedom and like to be dominated. That's idiotic. American citizens join the military because they love freedom and understand that it's worth temporarily putting their own personal freedoms on hold in order to defend freedom for all other Americans.

I'll get around to responding to the rest of your comments later.
1) The core principle of Calvinism is that things a pre-destined, and the reason they are pre-destined is because we can not initiate, because we are so sinful. If you love GOD, for example, Calvinists dont believe its because you choose to love GOD, but because GOD has chosen you to Love him, and initiated.

Someone in that position has NO rights. Not the right to free will, not the right to choose. They...more then any other denomination would denounce the ideals of any Rights period.

2) I think you miss understood me Nathan...I was actually talking about two different things...the Military as Heirachical....and dominance and submission...NOT Dominance and submission within the Military Heirachy.

One was to demonstrate to you YOUR position UNDER God...and One was to Demonstrate that your original premise about everyone wanting to be free is not a universal.

If you bothered to read my post...you would see...they arent even in the same numbered return. I cant wait to hear the rest of your responses..along I hope with your scriptural points to back up your argument...but in your own time Nathan
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:41 PM
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i have to agree with dave .. as long as i have been on this site, i have been told that if it isn't in scripture, it isn't biblical .. nate, you said somewhere up ^^^^ that the founding fathers used the bible to determine what was just, but you didnt know the verses .... the term "god given right" is thrown around a lot, especially for gun rights .. LOL ... i have no problem with someone saying, we have a right to bear arms given to us by the founding fathers of this country .. but saying god given without backing it up gives it no merit ...
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:35 PM
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1) The core principle of Calvinism is that things a pre-destined, and the reason they are pre-destined is because we can not initiate, because we are so sinful. If you love GOD, for example, Calvinists dont believe its because you choose to love GOD, but because GOD has chosen you to Love him, and initiated.

Someone in that position has NO rights. Not the right to free will, not the right to choose. They...more then any other denomination would denounce the ideals of any Rights period.
You're kind of almost halfway right, but then you just go and take a wild left turn in that second paragraph and get everything wrong.

GOD is sovereign, no one claiming to be a Christian can deny that. The Bible is also clear that love for GOD, faith and salvation are not possible if human beings are left to their own devices. In our natural state, we are haters of GOD and everything that GOD stands for. So that part is true.

However, understanding that we must be submissive to GOD is completely unrelated to being submissive to human governments. In fact, more often than not, human governments require their citizens to participate in actions that are a direct violation of GOD's law. In those cases, the government becomes a barrier between people and GOD and submission to those types of governments becomes a sin.

I personally hate using the term "Calvinism" because the 5 points of Calvinism predate John Calvin, the Church and even the New Testament. They can be found throughout the Bible, going all the way back to Genesis.

However, many Calvinists were instrumental in the formation of the United States and they absolutely did not denounce the idea of human rights. In fact, the US federal government was actually based on the structure of the Presbyterian church (a Calvinist denomination). In it's early days it was referred to as a "presbyterian government."

Finally, the truth of GOD's sovereignty does not mean that human rights don't exist. That's 100% false and not even a logical conclusion to draw; so I'm not really sure how you are coming up with that.

So, you should take the time to really examine what other people believe and not just assume that you can guess what they believe based on your own incomplete understanding of the topic.

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I cant wait to hear the rest of your responses..along I hope with your scriptural points to back up your argument...but in your own time Nathan
Honestly an internet debate is not a real priority for me right now. Plus, I want to give myself enough time to really think this through and understand why I believe what I believe before responding. It might take days, months or even years, but I'll get around to responding eventually.

Since silence on the internet is often falsely interpreted as surrender or submission, some people like to prematurely claim victory in a topic just because the person holding the opposing viewpoint doesn't instantly respond. However, if you really want a thoughtful, intelligent debate, then you can't fault people for taking the time to research and contemplate their responses.
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