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  #71  
Old 12-30-2013, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kevint13 View Post
He wasn't "gifted" anyone. That was the best talent that the UFC had that were middleweights.
It's highly arguable that anyone of those guys were #1 MW contenders if we want to get real, mayyybe in the UFC, but def not in the world, and yet that's how the UFC spins them. Dana and his posse gave him a slew of easy W's, built up as much hype as they could about those same fighters, and then deified Anderson when he won. It's a script.

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It is not his fault that he was that much better than all of them. At least he tried going up in weight some also. And Hendo washed up....he went to KO Fedor a couple of years later. Oh wait, but he was washed up too, right?
Fedor wasn't washed up when Hendo beat him? Or, was Fedor ever really tested against the best fighters in the first place? In any event, Anderson dispatching Hendo who had lost to Rampage months earlier wasn't the sensation Rogan and Goldberg made it out to be (per the script).

As for going up in weight - look at the boobs they gifted to him It is a short list that reads like a lousy TMZ episode of "where are they now"?
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  #72  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:01 AM
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tee hee

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  #73  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:56 PM
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It's highly arguable that anyone of those guys were #1 MW contenders if we want to get real, mayyybe in the UFC, but def not in the world, and yet that's how the UFC spins them. Dana and his posse gave him a slew of easy W's, built up as much hype as they could about those same fighters, and then deified Anderson when he won. It's a script.
Did you not read what I said? He fought the best that the UFC had. I never said in the world, they were likely tied up to contracts in other organizations, this is a business also. It's not Anderson's fault that they didn't have the best fighters. He fought who they asked him to fight...in 2 weight classes. And he beat the former LHW champ, oh wait he was a can right (amazing that a crappy fighter can win a championship)?

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Fedor wasn't washed up when Hendo beat him? Or, was Fedor ever really tested against the best fighters in the first place? In any event, Anderson dispatching Hendo who had lost to Rampage months earlier wasn't the sensation Rogan and Goldberg made it out to be (per the script).
I don't think Fedor was washed up. Like many fighters that have fought awhile, they get figured out. Fedor could still end a fight with one shot. Same with Hendo, he got figured out and people realize to move away from the right hand.

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As for going up in weight - look at the boobs they gifted to him It is a short list that reads like a lousy TMZ episode of "where are they now"?
If there is such a conspiracy and fighters being gifted fights, then quit watching. I love the sport, but I get that it is a business also and they are in it to make money (hence why Lesnar got a title shot).

There are people that think Matt had an easy division when he was champ, your thoughts?
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:41 PM
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Did you not read what I said? He fought the best that the UFC had. I never said in the world, they were likely tied up to contracts in other organizations, this is a business also. It's not Anderson's fault that they didn't have the best fighters.
I never said you did say that. The UFC says that. They make the claim that Anderson is the best MMA fighter in the history of the world. Their qualifications, their script. Am I false?

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Originally Posted by kevint13 View Post
He fought who they asked him to fight...in 2 weight classes. And he beat the former LHW champ, oh wait he was a can right (amazing that a crappy fighter can win a championship)?
Forrest was scripted to lose that fight. I know the UFC was hoping for a better scrap, but Forrest lost his motivation long before that fight and they knew it, so they gave Anderson Forrest, very far from the best, so going up to LHW to fight 3 stooges near the bottom of the ladder proved very little.


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Originally Posted by kevint13 View Post
If there is such a conspiracy and fighters being gifted fights, then quit watching. I love the sport, but I get that it is a business also and they are in it to make money (hence why Lesnar got a title shot).
I don't think all fighters are given cans. I agree with my boy Jon Jones in that he has had to take serious fights, and many others have had to as well. But you're buying into the HYPE the UFC is selling about Anderson Silva, maybe your love for MMA has clouded your vision here. The claims they make are WITHOUT merit about this guy. He hasn't beaten the best. He's beaten the guys and the cans they gave him TO beat.

First fight out they put him against Chris Leben...who is, was and always will be an "eh" fighter. AS wins, I'll give him that, but that moved him to the #1 MW spot? I don't think that was a gift so much as a test...so be it.

Second fight he gets Rich Franklin for a title shot...Ok, same deal, but Rich was an awesome fighter and for some reason he was 1-dimensional in that fight and was clinched up by AS.

Third fight TUF season 4 winner Travis Lutter...a season of crappy fighters who were thrown out of the UFC, then brought back for a shot at redemption. This was Anderson's first "gift" from the UFC. Even still Lutter had a good showing overall, he just gassed, yet the UFC toted AS as "unstoppable" at this point bc of this fight. The script began with this fight.

Fourth fight Marquardt - OK, he proved himself legitimate again like with Franklin. The script gets its first real merit.

Fifth fight Franklin again, and again the same result. The script get Richer. There is talk about deification now.

Sixth fight Hendo - OK, though Hendo wasn't the machine of invincibility the script wrote him out to be, but the script paints a different picture.

Seventh-Tenth fights - all of these guys were gifts for Anderson, and the 2 title shots in there were a joke to say the least. None of those fighters are with the UFC anymore. Per the script you'd think everyone of those fighters were top 3 in the world, once again cementing how indestructible and legendary AS was, is and always will be.

Eleventh fight Meia - I wouldn't say Meia was a total can, but AS clowned him the whole time and the fight was a farce. AS proved himself brilliant at playing mind games with his opponents. The script gets better because they can show the pyscological aspects of AS game.

Twelfth fight Chael 1 - AS gets dominated 4.5 rounds by Chael with his 1 dimensional strategy, and then Chael (much like Anderson with Weidmann ) fails himself and loses the fight...to himself. Of course, the psycological aspect gets blotted out of the script in this fight since Chael didn't succumb to any fear. Of course, AS was "injured" before the fight and the UFC was just fine with those excuses. Coming from anyone else would have gotten them practically cut from the UFC.

Thirteenth fight Vitor - I'll give him that one. Vitor however, had only beaten Franklin at this point in the UFC, and Franklin had been up and down against OK fighters for the most part since losing to AS. So, how legitimate was the victory? The last 3 Vitor victories before that fight were outside of the UFC against nobodies.

Fourteenth fight Okami - an obligatory title shot much the same as Cote and Leites, and those guys were gifts, so Okami was also another gift and another W, and more legitmacy for the script.

Fifteenth fight Chael 2 - another 1 dimensional fight on Chael's end which cost him, not a gift, but once again like Anderson/Chael 1 - Chael lost that fight on account of himself Of course, that's not part of the script.

Sixteenth fight Bonner - a gift, plain and simple.

The UFC deems this guy "the greatest Mixed Martial Artist of all time", the "greatest martial artist of all time", and the "most dominant mma fighter of all time", yet, he wasn't dominant in every round of every fight, nor is their sufficient merit to define him undisputably the greatest MMA fighter of all time when his opponents by and large were questionable opponents. Dana White get disgustingly wealthy off of the script he writes and Joe Rogan/Mike Goldberg likewise have become millionaires from reading it to the masses of fans.

I do think for whatever it's worth that AS is the best MW the UFC championship has had, but I don't think AS is the best UFC MW and def not the best the world has to offer. According the script you'd think it would blasphemous to say such things, but I think Chris WM just proved again that AS has holes, can be exposed and can lose. I think Machida, Rashad, Souza and other company would prove the same theory correct if the script would have allowed/or will allow for those matchups. Of course, they can always backpeddle with excuses now should he lose due to his injury and ancient age of 38 years.

Th problem is that the UFC doesn't want that in the script so therefore the script revision must read that AS probably/most likely will have lost both WM fights "to himself"....in much the same way BJ Penn lost the first Frankie fight "to himself" Still, the dumb masses of sheep fans will believe it.

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Originally Posted by kevint13 View Post
There are people that think Matt had an easy division when he was champ, your thoughts?
I'd have to look into that, I didn't follow the UFC through most of Matt's reign.
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Last edited by Vizion; 12-30-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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  #75  
Old 12-30-2013, 05:02 PM
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I never said you did say that. The UFC says that. They make the claim that Anderson is the best MMA fighter in the history of the world. Their qualifications, their script. Am I false?

Forrest was scripted to lose that fight. I know the UFC was hoping for a better scrap, but Forrest lost his motivation long before that fight and they knew it, so they gave Anderson Forrest, very far from the best, so going up to LHW to fight 3 stooges near the bottom of the ladder proved very little.


I don't think all fighters are given cans. I agree with my boy Jon Jones in that he has had to take serious fights, and many others have had to as well. But you're buying into the HYPE the UFC is selling about Anderson Silva, maybe your love for MMA has clouded your vision here. The claims they make are WITHOUT merit about this guy. He hasn't beaten the best. He's beaten the guys and the cans they gave him TO beat.

First fight out they put him against Chris Leben...who is, was and always will be an "eh" fighter. AS wins, I'll give him that, but that moved him to the #1 MW spot? I don't think that was a gift so much as a test...so be it.

Second fight he gets Rich Franklin for a title shot...Ok, same deal, but Rich was an awesome fighter and for some reason he was 1-dimensional in that fight and was clinched up by AS.

Third fight TUF season 4 winner Travis Lutter...a season of crappy fighters who were thrown out of the UFC, then brought back for a shot at redemption. This was Anderson's first "gift" from the UFC. Even still Lutter had a good showing overall, he just gassed, yet the UFC toted AS as "unstoppable" at this point bc of this fight. The script began with this fight.

Fourth fight Marquardt - OK, he proved himself legitimate again like with Franklin. The script gets its first real merit.

Fifth fight Franklin again, and again the same result. The script get richer. There is talk about deification now.

Sixth fight Hendo - OK, though Hendo wasn't the machine of invincibility the script wrote him out to be, but the script paints a different picture.

Seventh-Tenth fights - all of these guys were gifts for Anderson, and the 2 title shots in there were a joke to say the least. None of those fighters are with the UFC anymore. Per the script you'd think everyone of those fighters were top 3 in the world, once again cementing how indestructible AS was.

Eleventh fight Meia - I wouldn't say Meia was a total can, but AS clowned him the whole time and the fight was a farce. AS proved himself brilliant at playing mind games with his opponents. The script gets better because they can show the pyscological aspects of AS game.

Twelfth fight Chael 1 - AS gets dominated 4.5 rounds by Chael with his 1 dimensional strategy, and then Chael (much like Anderson with Weidmann ) fails himself and loses the fight...to himself. Of course, the psycological aspect gets blotted out of the script in this fight since Chael didn't succumb to any fear.

Thirteenth fight Vitor - I'll give him that one. Vitor however, had only beaten Franklin at this point in the UFC, and Franklin had been up and down against OK fighters for the most part since losing to AS. So, how legitimate was the victory?

Fourteenth fight Okami - an obligatory title shot much the same as Cote and Leites, and those guys were gifts, so Okami was also another gift.

Fifteenth fight Chael 2 - another 1 dimensional fight on Chael's end which cost him, not a gift, but once again like Anderson/Weidmann 1 - Chael lost that fight on account of himself

Sixteenth fight Bonner - a gift, plain and simple.

The UFC deems this guy "the greatest Mixed Martial Artist of all time", the "greatest martial artist of all time", and the "most dominant mma fighter of all time", yet, he wasn't dominant in every round of every fight, nor is their sufficient merit to define him undisputably the greatest MMA fighter of all time when his opponents by and large were questionable opponents.

That's the only issue I have. I do think for whatever it's worth that AS is the best MW the UFC championship has had, but I don't think AS is the best UFC MW and def not the best the world has to offer. According the script you'd think it would blasphemous to say such things, but I think Chris WM just proved again that AS has holes, can be exposed and can lose. I think Machida, Rashad, Souza and other company would prove the same theory.

Only problem is the UFC doesn't want that in the script so therefore the script revision must read that AS probably/most likely lost "to himself"....in much the same way BJ Penn lost the first Frankie fight "to himself"

I'd have to look into that, I didn't follow the UFC through most of Matt's reign.
I get what you are saying for the most part, I don't totally agree but when does that ever happen?

I don't understand your "script" theory. You make it seem like the UFC picked him and decided that they were going to make him successful. Now if you mean after they saw him wreck Leben and Franklin...I could see why they would want to, but I just don't think they would do this (I could be wrong though).

I went and looked back and Anderson was never a huge "betting" favorite until he fought James Irvin (There was no data for Leben, Franklin 1, or Lutter).

Quote:
UFC 162: Anderson Silva -215 / Chris Weidman +165
UFC 153: Anderson Silva -1350 / Stephan Bonnar +850
UFC 148: Anderson Silva -235 / Chael Sonnen +175
UFC 134: Anderson Silva -425 / Yushin Okami +325
UFC 126: Anderson Silva -325 / Vitor Belfort +250
UFC 117: Anderson Silva -450 / Chael Sonnen +300
UFC 112: Anderson Silva -425 / Demian Maia +325
UFC 101: Anderson Silva -240 / Forrest Griffin +190
UFC 97: Anderson Silva -275 / Thales Leites +215
UFC 90: Anderson Silva -370 / Patrick Cote +300
UFC Fight Night 14: Anderson Silva -600 / James Irvin +400
UFC 82: Anderson Silva -140 / Dan Henderson +100
UFC 77: Anderson Silva -300 / Rich Franklin +220
UFC 73: Anderson Silva -190 / Nate Marquardt +155
Based on these and provided that casino sportsbooks offered comparable, it wouldn't seem that everyone thought he was fighting complete cans.

I'm not buying into the hype that you believe that the UFC is trying to promote on Anderson Silva. I am looking at what he has done and how he has done it. I am looking at it from a P4P view. Anderson in his prime with his skills could beat anyone in the world, that is what I believe. It is all subjective and you disagreeing is cool. I just want you to see where I am coming from and we can still disagree. I would be willing to bet that RNC would think the same about GSP too and you possibly about Jon Jones now or in the near future. But it isn't the UFC's hype machine that makes me feel this way, it is Anderson's style and skills that make me believe it.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:07 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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I get what you are saying for the most part, I don't totally agree but when does that ever happen?

I don't understand your "script" theory. You make it seem like the UFC picked him and decided that they were going to make him successful. Now if you mean after they saw him wreck Leben and Franklin...I could see why they would want to, but I just don't think they would do this (I could be wrong though).

I went and looked back and Anderson was never a huge "betting" favorite until he fought James Irvin (There was no data for Leben, Franklin 1, or Lutter).



Based on these and provided that casino sportsbooks offered comparable, it wouldn't seem that everyone thought he was fighting complete cans.

I'm not buying into the hype that you believe that the UFC is trying to promote on Anderson Silva. I am looking at what he has done and how he has done it. I am looking at it from a P4P view. Anderson in his prime with his skills could beat anyone in the world, that is what I believe. It is all subjective and you disagreeing is cool. I just want you to see where I am coming from and we can still disagree. I would be willing to bet that RNC would think the same about GSP too and you possibly about Jon Jones now or in the near future. But it isn't the UFC's hype machine that makes me feel this way, it is Anderson's style and skills that make me believe it.
no man .. imo, they were definitely over promoting anderson ... and now it will all be about jon jones .. and rousy ... guys like gsp, brock didn't need the promotion .. the ppv numbers are awful this year and i think gsp walked away because he felt he was a bit slighted by the ufc, particularly dana .. lets see how many ppv's hendricks or lawler sell ...

and i agree with vizion ... anderson, yes he fought the guys who were placed in front of him, and they may not be cans, but they weren't world beaters ... i think the only person on the top 10 p4p list he fought was chael .... and rich
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:12 PM
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I'd have to look into that, I didn't follow the UFC through most of Matt's reign.
"Reigns" Plural...Matt Hughes had Two Reigns, GSP also had two reigns

But BJ Penn and Anderson Silva couldnt bounce back.

Plus...not meaning to be funny...but lets see where they all are now...

BJ Penn...still dithering on whether he's retired, or really retired, a bit like he dithered over whether he wanted to be welterweight champion, or lightweight champion, or both, at once

Anderson Silva...Those who live by the sword...well..he was fast-tracked, prooved his worth, but then started messing around. He's the only champion who Dana White has refused to personally crown with the belt, he liked to seemingly humilliate his opponent. It didnt end well for him, and he wont be back.

Georges Saint Pierre...too far, too fast, couldnt cope with it. He finished his reign knowing he'd lost when he won, and unable to speak any sence whatsoever. The guy had his mind pickled with pressure

Matt Hughes...Hall of Famer, Executive of The UFC, best online forum for over half a decade. Still physically intact, Still compus Mentus.

Is there ANY comparison?
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:14 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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"Reigns" Plural...Matt Hughes had Two Reigns, GSP also had two reigns

But BJ Penn and Anderson Silva couldnt bounce back.

Plus...not meaning to be funny...but lets see where they all are now...

BJ Penn...still dithering on whether he's retired, or really retired, a bit like he dithered over whether he wanted to be welterweight champion, or lightweight champion, or both, at once

Anderson Silva...Those who live by the sword...well..he was fast-tracked, prooved his worth, but then started messing around. He's the only champion who Dana White has refused to personally crown with the belt, he liked to seemingly humilliate his opponent. It didnt end well for him, and he wont be back.

Georges Saint Pierre...too far, too fast, couldnt cope with it. He finished his reign knowing he'd lost when he won, and unable to speak any sence whatsoever. The guy had his mind pickled with pressure

Matt Hughes...Hall of Famer, Executive of The UFC, best online forum for over half a decade. Still physically intact, Still compus Mentus.

Is there ANY comparison?
bj penn is fighting edgar for the third time at 145 ... i am sure you know this ... but he may have another run left in him ...
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:17 PM
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bj penn is fighting edgar for the third time at 145 ... i am sure you know this ... but he may have another run left in him ...
Perhaps he'd like the middleweight crown also whilst he's at it

He's always got a little roll left in him has Baby Jay
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:34 PM
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no man .. imo, they were definitely over promoting anderson ... and now it will all be about jon jones .. and rousy ... guys like gsp, brock didn't need the promotion .. the ppv numbers are awful this year and i think gsp walked away because he felt he was a bit slighted by the ufc, particularly dana .. lets see how many ppv's hendricks or lawler sell ...
That's your opinion and mine is different. If PPV numbers were an issue, then why did this fight cost more, to make up for crappy numbers or because this fight was going to sell? My guess, probably both.

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and i agree with vizion ... anderson, yes he fought the guys who were placed in front of him, and they may not be cans, but they weren't world beaters ... i think the only person on the top 10 p4p list he fought was chael .... and rich
You can make this argument about many current and former champions: BJ Penn and Chuck Liddell are two examples. They are both considered legends and some of the greatest of all time, yet they didn't fight the world's best either and if they did they lost. It's not the fighters fault, it is the landscape of the UFC and the divisions at the time and you just accept it. Guys like GSP and Jones are benefiting from having deep divisions. Cain is about to run into the same issue as guys like BJ, there are not enough good HWs to give him a challenge. But that is just the way it is.
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