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  #21  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:01 PM
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Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.
For some reason, the flight to latin america/meso America left without Snowden on board, and Vladimir has made it quite clear that he is under no obligation to help the United States....he is pissed off because Barack Obama forced him to sign up to an agreement to say that President Assad of Assyria, one of Vlads best friends, had to step down for the Rebels to take power and end the civil war.

China has no particular want to be involved in American internal affaires...because thats essentially what this is...you have to understand two things. First ONLY the Federal Government considers him a Criminal...and secondly, whilst he might have told the Americans something they didnt know...he didnt say much that suprise any other Super Power (either now or previous) We know very well that the United States Government will spy on everyone as much as the possibly can...after all, we are probably doing the same thing. Its expected...and so for the Russians and the Chinese....I'm afraid its probably "Big Wow" when it comes to the revelation the Federal Government is looking into everyones personal lives The Chinese and Russians would go as far as to say that is what Governments SHOULD be doing anyway
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  #22  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:16 PM
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1) Why blame Abraham Lincoln...because he believed that no state(s) should be allowed to separate itself from the Union?



2) If our founding fathers could see how big we've allowed government to get, and how it's expanding and intruding into our lives, and how it's abusing it's powers to use against it's citizens, they'd probably say, !

Or words to that effect.
1) No...because he said that No Individual State had any Legal Status of its own. That is WHY he said they could not separate from the Union...without The BIG Federal Government, there was no Legitamacy in Law.

By doing that, he banished the Soveringties of FIFTY soverign States, with all the Freedoms listed in the Dec of Independance. When he won the Civil War the Union reigned Surpreme...and it has done eversince, moving further and further away from the design brief...because integral to the Consitution is the fact that the Federal Republic is "United States"...NOT "A United State" do you spot the difference.

Trust me...George Washington knew what a Single, BIG Government could do. Thats why Congress wasnt permanent, Why each of the Soverignties had their own "Presidents" why the Soverignties set the rules. The "Representatives" were not politicians...they were litterally, Representatives of the different States...when they convened a convention, The Union appeared out of their collective wranglings over political matters...and then, once the Congress had completed...each State then had to Ratify that within its own way of being. If you remove that process, which you MUST if you say that States have no individual legal power, they can not ratify anything....you've distroyed the fundemental emphasis of the mode of Government...set up a permanent Government...and it would inevitably ring bells of Westminister! The form of Governance that caused the War of Independance

Washington Believed the Former
Lincoln Believed the Latter.

2) I think Washington would be very distressed if he saw todays Union. He would recognise the European Union as being closer to his ideal...for each State in the European Union is Soverign...Though that is rapidly changing also.

Nathan is right, it doesnt matter the starting place...all Governments once they go, inevitably, begin to corrupt themselves in a manner ill befitting
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:25 PM
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our government .
Forgive me...but China and Russia do not realize your Government Exists. All they see is The Federal "Government" Union. A vast swaith of the Western World has never even heard of Illinois...before I came to this Forum...I was one of them there are doubtless many States I have never heard of, and wouldnt know without looking at a map

But in terms of the Federal Union....China probably simply doesnt care about this issue...and Russia is enjoying the opportunity to stick its fingers up, coz she is a point scorer...and she felt that the last battle was won by the US in regards to the G8 Summit and Assyria oh its petty.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:34 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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I think China and Russia are thumbing their noses in the US' face and making our government look like fools. This just shows how little respect for the Obama Administration the world really has.
they are probably also thinking that hey, if they are spying on their own people, what intelligence must they have on us! ... there is an article out there saying putin has said he knows that snowden is in the airport and that he is a free man .... he won't extradite him ... pretty crazy ....
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:35 PM
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Meanwhile...look what this "prism" shyte has stired up in England

Human rights group Liberty is taking legal action against the British security services amid fears its communications were hacked.

Liberty has issued a claim against the intelligence services over their suspected involvement in the Prism and Project Tempora privacy scandal.

A spokesman for the group said it was believed their electronic communications may have been unlawfully accessed by the security services and staff at the communications centre GCHQ.

It has issued a claim to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal (IPT), suggesting the human right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence could have been breached.

Liberty wants the IPT to establish whether British authorities used Prism or Tempora to bypass the rules governing access to personal material.

James Welsh, its legal director, said: "Those demanding the Snoopers' Charter seem to have been indulging in out-of-control snooping even without it - exploiting legal loopholes and help from Uncle Sam.

"No-one suggests a completely unpoliced internet but those in power cannot swap targeted investigations for endless monitoring of the entire globe."

Documents disclosed by US whistleblower Edward Snowden suggest GCHQ secretly accessed fibre-optic cables carrying huge amounts of internet and communications data.

The agency is said to be able to tap into and store data from the cables for up to 30 days for analysis under an operation codenamed Tempora.

GCHQ is also said to have accessed information about UK citizens via the US National Security Agency's secret Prism monitoring programme.

The Cheltenham-based agency insists it is "scrupulous" in complying with the law and Foreign Secretary William Hague has dismissed claims that it used Prism to circumvent the law as "baseless".
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  #26  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:49 PM
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Forgive me...but China and Russia do not realize your Government Exists. All they see is The Federal "Government" Union.
That's what I'm talking about when I refer to "our government." For better or worse, the Confederacy has been dead for 150 years now. The US Federal Government is our government.
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  #27  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
they are probably also thinking that hey, if they are spying on their own people, what intelligence must they have on us! ... there is an article out there saying putin has said he knows that snowden is in the airport and that he is a free man .... he won't extradite him ... pretty crazy ....
That could be part of it, but I think making Obama look like a fool is just bonus points.
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2013, 07:10 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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That could be part of it, but I think making Obama look like a fool is just bonus points.
you could be right .. but i remember both of these guys doing the same to Bush ... Russia with the Georgia conflict and something about when Bush went to the Beijing Olympics, spoke about China's track record with human rights and got told to keep quiet ... so sure, it may be Obama, but these two countries have always liked to get one over on the US ...
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  #29  
Old 06-25-2013, 07:56 PM
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yes, china dropped the ball on this one and the US are making it known that they did ... Russia seems to not want to say they know or don't know where he is .. and Ecuador or Cuba will no doubt not give up Snowden ... Ecuador is already holding Assange i believe, and i read they sent a plane to get him from russia, but that came back empty.
"Dropping the ball" suggests an unintended screw-up, I don't think that was the case. I heard China was behind Hong Kong letting him go. Snowden told China the U.S. was hacking them, could have been pay back. Now Putin has said Snowden is in Russia and that he has committed no crimes in Russia so he will not be arrested or extradited. It's obvious these countries fear no retaliation or consequences from us, and why should they when they have seen repeatedly that Obama is an all talk-no action President.

They've seen him willing to let Americans die in Benghazi with no consequences for those who killed them; they've seen our embassies overrun and burned all across the Middle East and Asia with no consequences; they see his weak foreign policies and retreat from the world stage; they see him constantly apologizing for America, and on and on....

You can't lead from behind or on the sidelines and expect to be respected as an effective Commander in Chief and world leader. It's na´ve thinking and puts us in a dangerous position.
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  #30  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
you could be right .. but i remember both of these guys doing the same to Bush ... Russia with the Georgia conflict and something about when Bush went to the Beijing Olympics, spoke about China's track record with human rights and got told to keep quiet ... so sure, it may be Obama, but these two countries have always liked to get one over on the US ...
I think this is different. Even if they didn't like us, I think there was respect and fear for what we could or would do. The lack of respect and fear being shown now is directly related to Obama, due to his foreign policies and lack of leadership in my opinion. They view him as being weak.
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