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  #11  
Old 06-11-2013, 06:55 PM
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I understand the world is a different place and we have to be able to have the ability to track terrorists, it's the unknown human factor that makes a program like PRISM so scary. Look how the IRS is being used against political opponents, look at what our AG has done in the James Rosen case. I have little faith in these so-called safeguards they say are in place to guard against abuse of this program when we see just how easy it is for people in positions of power to abuse that power and use it against their own citizens.

I want us to be safe from terrorists, I just hate that we have to wonder now if we're safe from our own government.
I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2013, 12:29 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.
Barack Obama had a lot to say about George Bush's NSA program before he became President which is ironic now since he's expanded it even more than what Bush was doing. Back then, Dems were against Bush's program, now that B.O. is doing it, they're just fine with it.

Right now, most people are saying security is more important to them than their privacy. I wonder what Ben Franklin would say today given the times. Back in his day he said this:

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Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither ~ Benjamin Franklin
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2013, 06:07 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.
sure .. people are going to side with the political group they identify themselves with most of the time ... i am sure most people on here would have no problem with this if it were the bush admin doing it, just like they had no issue with the patriot act ... but john mccain has stated his support for this program (i know he ran in 2008, not 2012), so this program would have probably been in effect with the GOP in charge too ...
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
sure .. people are going to side with the political group they identify themselves with most of the time ... i am sure most people on here would have no problem with this if it were the bush admin doing it, just like they had no issue with the patriot act ... but john mccain has stated his support for this program (i know he ran in 2008, not 2012), so this program would have probably been in effect with the GOP in charge too ...
I agree. This is not a "Democrats in power" thing, this is a "sinful human beings in power" thing. To assume that this would be different because the President had a little "R" next to his name as opposed to a little "D" is foolish.
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:34 PM
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Since the government was acting outside of the US Constitution by collecting data on American citizens who have not been accused of a crime, then he is more of a whistleblower, not a traitor.

It's the Obama Administration that is betraying the American people here, not Edward Snowden.
Erm...not JUST American citizens....



What IS embarissing is...that the American Union (and I make that as a distinguishment from America as in people) is so good at spying, when the British Secret Service want to know what British Citizens are doing....they ask the Americans

Its funny how in England there hasnt been a word about the ethics of the US looking at Citizens outside of its soverignty...but the British Government HAS tried to deny that the British Secret Service being barred from doing what the American Union has done to its Citizens...used the Americans to do their work for them and then fax them a copy

Lets be honnest...The "Union" isnt just representatives of State Governments, and thats the problem with it...once its beyond its design brief, it can make it up as it goes along.

As for the actual guy...well technically speaking, if he signed the American version of the British "Official Secrets Act" then, technically speaking, yes he IS a Traitor to the Union. But being a Traitor to the Constitution depends on whether the Union has broken it or not. It has. Therefore if one considers the Union Treacherous...well...its morally correct to unveil it for what it is.

The real problem is that as I see it, Americans seem to think that the constituion, and the Federal Union are one and the same...But its Constituion First, Union Second...The Constituion guides the Union, NOT the other way round....except...as we can see...actually The Union pays no attention to the Constituion at all...and those Checks and Ballences, they are now part of the problem because they are reliant on the Federal System...therefore, if the Union asks for someone unconstituional...say...a health reform...the Supreme Court will turn a blind eye, because it brings the federal system more money....and therefore, they are better off.

The First Step of recovery would be to crush the Bi-Partisanship of Congress. Remove large scale political parties all together, because they shouldnt exist, they are a product of Big Government.

The Second Step would be to return power to the State Governments where a host of political groups fighting for local issues should be encouraged

The Third Step would then be too largely collapse all the over-inflated departments, commission, and things that are part of an illicit Federal Union This would include passing back the law making to the State Governments

The Fourth Step would be to make the Branches, the Union itself, rather then a force of people controlled by Washington Federal Triangle

The fifth step would be to expect the State Governments to start to be self sufficient. They are independant Soverignties, and where they are not self sufficient, they should be fighting in congress for the trade to satisfy them. Congress should be a veichal for the independant States to get what they need from the rest of the world, that is all.

The final step, would then be to cease a 24/7 Federal Government in the way you have it today. The Secret Service should only be to look at foreign threats...local threats are for State Governments to deal with. Big Government looks for the need to conduct war and peace....not to spy on its own populas...the only spying that would ever need to be done, would be State Governments, Spying within their own boarders

Face it...you will NEVER go back to that. That, which is outlined above, is pretty much what England would consider Provincial Rule...its what George Washington would have known, where each state ran itself, and then all States sent representatives, once every so often for joint ventures.

Personally, I blame Abraham Lincoln, but thats just me
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonnie View Post
Right now, most people are saying security is more important to them than their privacy. I wonder what Ben Franklin would say today given the times. Back in his day he said this:
I believe that He and George Washington, would believe that the Federal Union as it now stands, is a non-democratic, dictatorial regieme. I reckon they would consider it closer to what England was when they Founded it, rather then closer to what it was when they founded it.

He recongised the Union as Conventions. Singular meetings of Continental Congress (as opposed to Congress, which existed, obviously, as part of every State Government) for joint issues of independant States concerning the outside world. A 24/7 sitting Government, would probably remind him of Westminsters Parliament...the which he considered Undemocratic, and under the authority of a Tyrant.

I think its a good job he died in a time, where the leaders of State Governments were also known as "Presidents" (He was President of The Supreme Executive Council of The CommonWealth of Pensylvania) Not...Guv'ner

Still...having said all of that...your country is still a shining example compared to the rest of the nations on the planet. Yes, you have faults...but not as many, and not as ingrained, though I am glad to see that any slide causes you all distress...for that shows you still care, and you care because your hope (unlike ours) has yet to be extinguished.
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  #17  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:04 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
Erm...not JUST American citizens....



What IS embarissing is...that the American Union (and I make that as a distinguishment from America as in people) is so good at spying, when the British Secret Service want to know what British Citizens are doing....they ask the Americans

Its funny how in England there hasnt been a word about the ethics of the US looking at Citizens outside of its soverignty...but the British Government HAS tried to deny that the British Secret Service being barred from doing what the American Union has done to its Citizens...used the Americans to do their work for them and then fax them a copy

Personally, I blame Abraham Lincoln, but thats just me


Why blame Abraham Lincoln...because he believed that no state(s) should be allowed to separate itself from the Union?

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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
I believe that He and George Washington, would believe that the Federal Union as it now stands, is a non-democratic, dictatorial regieme. I reckon they would consider it closer to what England was when they Founded it, rather then closer to what it was when they founded it.

He recongised the Union as Conventions. Singular meetings of Continental Congress (as opposed to Congress, which existed, obviously, as part of every State Government) for joint issues of independant States concerning the outside world. A 24/7 sitting Government, would probably remind him of Westminsters Parliament...the which he considered Undemocratic, and under the authority of a Tyrant.

I think its a good job he died in a time, where the leaders of State Governments were also known as "Presidents" (He was President of The Supreme Executive Council of The CommonWealth of Pensylvania) Not...Guv'ner

Still...having said all of that...your country is still a shining example compared to the rest of the nations on the planet. Yes, you have faults...but not as many, and not as ingrained, though I am glad to see that any slide causes you all distress...for that shows you still care, and you care because your hope (unlike ours) has yet to be extinguished.
If our founding fathers could see how big we've allowed government to get, and how it's expanding and intruding into our lives, and how it's abusing it's powers to use against it's citizens, they'd probably say, !

Or words to that effect.
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  #18  
Old 06-25-2013, 02:06 AM
Bonnie Bonnie is offline
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Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.
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  #19  
Old 06-25-2013, 05:02 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.
yes, china dropped the ball on this one and the US are making it known that they did ... Russia seems to not want to say they know or don't know where he is .. and Ecuador or Cuba will no doubt not give up Snowden ... Ecuador is already holding Assange i believe, and i read they sent a plane to get him from russia, but that came back empty.
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  #20  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:54 PM
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I think China and Russia are thumbing their noses in the US' face and making our government look like fools. This just shows how little respect for the Obama Administration the world really has.
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