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Old 06-12-2013, 06:11 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
Okay...sorry but I really think President Lincoln was wrong...in those quotes, he uses as his premise that its unlawful to leave, a document PRE the Constituion, and tries to say that because History has never seen a state leave, therefore, history never can. Pepetual Unionism...ever expanding, but never contracting...thats a lovely ideal...but it doesnt make departure from the Union unlawful. Its all well and good to try and better the union, but if it doesnt work, there is only so long one should try to make it more perfect before deciding on another course of action.

"The States have their status in the Union, and they have no other legal status"

MY GOD, WTF does he think State Governments are???? The Union was designed to be the sum of all the states...the power flows from the bottom up, NOT the top down..."The Union" should exist without the input of the individual soverignties. I dont know what he thought he was saying there, but thats probably the most dictatorial thing I have EVER heard from a US President...and it just proves my point more. He believed The Union, Himself, was the be all and end all of legal matters. He didnt believe in the soverignty of the individual states at all. Thats undemocratic, thats NOT constitutionalist...THIS is why you have a problem with your Government today, THIS is why your State Governments have no authority, no power, no rights, no freedom, except that which is dictated to them by a Federal Entity that exists in its own right "If they break from this they can only do so against law and by revolution."

Hate to say it...but under the guise of that above...I would say that Americans, even if they didnt want to leave the union, might have needed a revolution.

I had thought this was the way it probably was...but I wanted to be sure because I didnt honnestly know the facts...now I have actual quotes I can see quite plainly.

I think your nation would have been better off without the war entirely.

Lincoln should have just let them go. Its ironic, that the very man who most wanted to save Democrasy, and preserve the longevity of the Union in order to keep alive the Washington Ideals, effectively, distroyed it, by trying to cling to power, and by violating the freedoms of the individual states.

He may have won the war...but at what cost? I dont think George Washington would recognise your Union today
seems to have done a good job ... doubt any state will try and secede anytime soon ... some states may talk a big game, but when it comes down to it, none of them have the cajones to do it ..
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:50 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
seems to have done a good job ... doubt any state will try and secede anytime soon ... some states may talk a big game, but when it comes down to it, none of them have the cajones to do it ..
Well, now they cant for financial reasons. You see...if the Union exists as the sum of its members, then it has next to no power without those members. The Union is therefore a Hive Mind of all the individual States to show a collective face in world affaires, to coordinate Trade, to run a military.

But Lincoln says that the States have no autonomous power...therefore a collection of States also has no autonomous power...therefore the Federal Union is not just a collection of States...there has to be something added to that collection to suply it with legitamate power.

That "Thing" is a Federal Government autonomous of the State System...The Extra, Golden State, that distributes power, and provides for all the individual States. This is something I dont think that George Washington would have wanted for VERY obvious reasons...its just a form of dictation of One State, over all the others. That One State is Primarily in the Federal Triangle of the Capitol City....and then in Federal Outposts in each of the States.

When times are good, I suppose they are fantastic...BUT without each individual State fighting its OWN CAUSE, which it can not do because of the Bi-Partisan issues...noone fights for their State anymore, they fight for their political party...and thats how each State has slowly been reduced to nothing more then a Council...which is now so completely hardwired into an illicit Federal System, that if you were to remove the Golden State...there WOULD be anarchy because the States are absolutely reliant on the Federal Government...Infact, the method the Federal Government use now is deprivation to any State Government that decides it wont play ball.

The Federal Government holds the money...and now that times are hard, you see the extent of the damage done. It appears that every single President from the time of Abraham Lincoln, to the Present, has unfortunately, and probably unwittingly, at least a few generations after the civil war, been aiding and abetting a system contrary to Constituional Values.

The President of the United States of America is more of a Monarch then ANY Monarchy of the current world. Forget the "checks and ballences" because those doing the "checks and ballences" they are dependant upon the Federal System for their existance...

The US needs a period of Devolution. It needs an INDEPENDANT President who will break up the Bi-Partisan System, transfer powers back to the State Governments, and be the figure head that he is supposed to be outside of war.

Only with a Constituionalistic approach can one really claim that dream. Im sorry, but its Constituion FIRST Union Second...and THATS the grave error that Lincoln made. He comprimised the beliefs of the Constituion to try and save the Union...and he basically turned the Union into a monster which then devoured the constituion. The United States has never been the same since...The reason no other country really knew this was because of the pre-world war issolationism. Thats the other trouble...if you depend on yourself as a Union, then you bind yourself together against soverignty...which only works as long as coorperation works...and nothing Gold can stay, as Robert Frost would say
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:52 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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passed the merry christmas bill ... but could pass the abortion bill in time ..... but i for one think killing this bill was a good thing ...
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