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  #41  
Old 03-16-2013, 07:34 PM
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And as far as popes go, I guess he is as good as any other. Nobody's perfect.

Last edited by Neezar; 03-16-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:12 PM
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them being kidnapped and tortured (which ironically happened right after he publically shunned them),
That I didnt know. mindue...im sure if he had done something serious he would have been on trial as a lot of them were afterwards.
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  #43  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:40 PM
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They? Who is They?

And they can not disprove it either. lol
They are The Roman Curia.

The Roman Curia is the Court of The Pope, and The Government of The Vatican City State. The Curia includes a list of Fifteen Cross Country Departments led by a Prefect....in early times these were to help establish the church across the world...for example Congregation Index Librorum Prohibitorum...In short a department for classifying books, and deciding which ones were good...and which ones were to be censored. The Curia produced a list of banned books...most of them not suprisingly Astronomical or Natural Sciences based. The Catholic Church held sway on what could get published and distributed in Europe...anything contrary to their beliefs was smushed. Right now only Eleven Congregations exist, one of which is The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith...which Historically speaking, was the The Holy Inquizition. These are helpful in maintainence rather then establishment.

Aside from that, there are three Tribunerals. Essentially the Legal Judiciary of the Roman Church.

Beneith that lie currently nine Councils for various different things, from Culture, to Christian Unity

Beneith that is The Government of The Holy See

Below that is Two insitutes directly associated with the Pope himself

That, in a nut shell, is the Roman Curia, or Court of The Papacy. Aside from this is what is known as The Religious Orders...and they are divided into three sections. The College of Cardinals. These are senior Priests who are Elevated to the Position of Princes of The Church. Various members of the college will lead the different councils, tribunerals, and congregations of the Curia. But their main function is to assemble on the death of a pope, and go into a Conclave for the ellection of a new Pope. There is no telling how many Cardinals there can be, it is a whim of a Pope who will call a consistory every so often and choose whomever he wants...though they are usually all ArchBishops. They remain Cardinals for life, but are forced into retirement at 75, they may vote in a conclave so long as they are 79 years or younger in age.

Below them are the Contemplative Denominations, the vast majority of these were wiped out during the reformation. But many of the Orders exist, they are just really small...an example, the Benedictine, The Fransiscans, The Dominicans (who were mainly the ones involved in the Inquizitions) and The Jesuits. In the olden days, these were the insitutions that created the universities and taught the masses...it was from these insitutions that books could be banned by the congregation mentioned before...let me put this in perspective for you...in a country, the size of the State of California...the Roman Catholic Church at its height had more then SEVEN HUNDRED contact points for these Orders. Thats seven hundred outlets that will ban a book of learning if so deemed...and seven hundred less places you might be able to read a book on astronomy in an age where, outside of the Churches influence, outside of those seven hundred outlets...most couldnt read or write.

Below all that lie the Episcopate. The general heirachy of the Church, an archBishop, above Bishops, above Priests, above Decons.

This network feeds the grass roots Churches down the road from wherever it is you live, and suplies the best part of two billion people with The Faith.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:52 PM
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incidently...when King Henry VIII decided to ignore the Papacy...he pretty much did a reverse decimation. Rather then killing one in every ten...he distroyed nine out of every ten

and when I mean distroyed...I really mean beseging and distroying countless architectural beauties. One of the very best of them in this region of the land was a place known as Fountains Abbey. It belonged to The Cistercian Order

LOOK WHAT THEY DID TO IT



Everytime I go to that place, I wonder what it must have been like for the Monks who lived quietly in prayer to suddenly find King Henry and His Army attacking their home

Remember my old flat at Granville road...with the loo so bad I had to call environmental health on my landlord to re-do it? when they stripped the papers from the wall they found an original wall painting from the victorian builders.



Fountains Abbey in my Bathroom
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  #45  
Old 03-17-2013, 05:05 PM
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1) In the Early Church I dont think you would be able to know what was truth and what wasnt...there were so many thousands of writings flying around...its true to say that any personalized canon of any early church would have included papers NOT in the Biblical Canon...The one compiled for EXACTLY that reason...the whole reason why Constantine needed a direct and agreed canon for Christianity is because the Early Church didnt have one.
So, how is that different from the situation today, where people will read commentaries, Bible studies, devotionals, books about the Bible, pseudo-religious books, song lyrics, etc. without ever actually reading the Bible?

Either way, your facts aren't accurate. The early Church had a Bible. We call it the Old Testament, but they called it the Holy Scriptures. The Gospel was preached directly out of the Old Testament in the earliest days, before the New Testament was written.

Also, you seem to be leaving the key player out of the equation: The Holy Spirit. All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and all Scripture was given by direct revelation from GOD. So, if the Holy Spirit is working in someone, then they will have no problem discerning truth from lie. If the Holy Spirit is not working in a person's life, then they will be dragged away by their own lusts and desires.

So, for you to say that we wouldn't be able to know what was truth and what wasn't back in the first and second century, is nonsense. In fact, with the level of persecution that the early Church suffered, I would venture to say that their faith was stronger than ours is right now.
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  #46  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:35 PM
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So, how is that different from the situation today, where people will read commentaries, Bible studies, devotionals, books about the Bible, pseudo-religious books, song lyrics, etc. without ever actually reading the Bible?

Either way, your facts aren't accurate. The early Church had a Bible. We call it the Old Testament, but they called it the Holy Scriptures. The Gospel was preached directly out of the Old Testament in the earliest days, before the New Testament was written.

Also, you seem to be leaving the key player out of the equation: The Holy Spirit. All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and all Scripture was given by direct revelation from GOD. So, if the Holy Spirit is working in someone, then they will have no problem discerning truth from lie. If the Holy Spirit is not working in a person's life, then they will be dragged away by their own lusts and desires.

So, for you to say that we wouldn't be able to know what was truth and what wasn't back in the first and second century, is nonsense. In fact, with the level of persecution that the early Church suffered, I would venture to say that their faith was stronger than ours is right now.
I was hoping you would bring that up.

So Nathan...explain to me how it is possible, for what you consider a "small cult" of repackaged pagans...were guided enough by the Holy Spirit, that you believe, whilst they were not Christian at the time, and are not Christian now...Yet GOD still guided THEM into selecting which drafts went into Holy Scripture and which did not to create an entire Testament...that YOU ACCEPT

It surely isnt logical, for you to banish Roman Catholicism from Christianity...and then claim it was The Holy Spirit that guided their pagen councils into the New Testament.

Whilst YOU see the difference between Scripture and Christian themed works...dont suppose the Early Church did...Remember EACH DOCUMENT brought to the Councils for possible inclusion WAS ALREADY CONSIDERED WORTHEY BY THE FACTION THAT BOUGHT IT FOR CONSIDERATION IN THE FIRST PLACE

You are right that they all used the Old Testament...but what you dont seem to get is...they all had DIFFERENT NEW TESTAMENTS essentially...and on top of that you admit that only those with the Spirit can detect which of those Testaments are true...but you shun the ONLY institution to have EVER done that in a uniform manner.

Let me put it this way...There are Bibles within some of the Orthodox Traditions that DO NOT Accept the Roman Compilation.

Lets make this even more hard for you...Ever heard of The Jewish Reformation? because your Old Testament is MISSING SOME BOOKS why? coz the Jews changed their minds on what was and was not Scripture and deleted a few books, which Rome had already accepted!

Thats why you get the Apokrapha...Rome didnt know whether to say "hey these are scriptures coz the Jews first believed them" or "no these arent scriptures coz the Jews changed their minds"

CAN you change your mind on Scripture???

That section is not to be confused with Apokraphal Texts in general, which are the fragments taken as Gospel by various different factions of the Early Church...but dismissed by Rome!

YOU niether believe what the Pre Jewish Reformational Jews Believe..NOR Do you Believe EVERYTHING the Early Church Believe.

You have chosen to believe ONLY what Rome has told you...and then have the gall to say they couldnt do it without the Spirit...but somehow did and are not Christian.

...and you think I am illogical at times
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  #47  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:11 PM
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Show me one post in this thread where I "banished" Roman Catholicism from Christianity.
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  #48  
Old 03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
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Show me one post in this thread where I "banished" Roman Catholicism from Christianity.
You can change your mind all you like Nathan...but you have told Roman Catholics they are not Christian on this forum before...and the use of the term "Cult" which you did use in this thread, is NOT synonomous with Denomination

Now....

I did some research for Michelle...

and its really confusing...but here we go.

According to the Biblical Tradition, Christ sends, Seventy, plus the twelve out at the Great Comission to plant Churches. Three Generations removed we have a list that claims where some of those Apostles went. According to Roman Tradition, the decendants would have apostolic succession, and effectively be Popes...infact Saint Peter being Bishop of Rome is a Translation...ergo...he was Bishop of somewhere else first.

What makes THE Pope any more important is merely the Historical Situation with Rome, in the same way Constantinoples Bishop was huge, and yet has no decending from any Apsotle, only Emporar Constentine.

Some of these Bishopricks DO exist today...but due to the schisms between the Roman Catholics and the Various Orthodox Traditions, there are several Bishops in each of these Areas today, each respective of their own denomination, and each pertains to being THE Bishop, in the Apostolic Sence...thats also what helped Rome Survive...VERY FEW RIVALS outside of Byzantia.

We have

Rome, Jerusalem, Damascas, Nicomedia, Bostra, Soli, Samaria, Milan, Alexandria, Corinth, Thessalonika, Carchadon, Carthage, Pannonia, Odyssus, Macedonia, Byzantia, Heraclea, Ephesus, Smyrna, Britain, Athens, Tarsus, Thebes, Hyrcania, Marathon, Dalmatia, Puteoli, Phillipi, Sinope, Laodicea, (Assyria) Iconium, Panellas, Caesarea, Berytus (Thrace)Colophonia, Andriace, Dyrrachium, Apollonia, Eleutheropolis, Lystra, Sardinia, Corone, Chalcedon, Antioch, Apamea, Bibloupolis, Diospolis, Gaza

Church probably created town and not the other way round

Those we know are extinct through war or conquest by Romans or Muslims, or the collapse of Ancient Civilizations

Those listed from Biblical Sources in the New Testament, but now extinct

Those I've heard of

Those that still exist

Pretty sure these exist as named after various dieties
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  #49  
Old 03-19-2013, 07:49 PM
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You can change your mind all you like Nathan...but you have told Roman Catholics they are not Christian on this forum before...and the use of the term "Cult" which you did use in this thread, is NOT synonomous with Denomination

Now....

I did some research for Michelle...

and its really confusing...but here we go.

According to the Biblical Tradition, Christ sends, Seventy, plus the twelve out at the Great Comission to plant Churches. Three Generations removed we have a list that claims where some of those Apostles went. According to Roman Tradition, the decendants would have apostolic succession, and effectively be Popes...infact Saint Peter being Bishop of Rome is a Translation...ergo...he was Bishop of somewhere else first.

What makes THE Pope any more important is merely the Historical Situation with Rome, in the same way Constantinoples Bishop was huge, and yet has no decending from any Apsotle, only Emporar Constentine.

Some of these Bishopricks DO exist today...but due to the schisms between the Roman Catholics and the Various Orthodox Traditions, there are several Bishops in each of these Areas today, each respective of their own denomination, and each pertains to being THE Bishop, in the Apostolic Sence...thats also what helped Rome Survive...VERY FEW RIVALS outside of Byzantia.
Anyone else do a double take when they read this sentence?
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:57 PM
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Anyone else do a double take when they read this sentence?
Thats what they are called...Bishopricks

the emphasis on the B and R NOT B and P
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