The UFC have a big name to cut from last night...

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by kevint13

1) It looks that way, but there isn't a rule at all. They do what they want without any guidelines, hence why you are upset. If they had structure in how they cut people we wouldn't be talking about it.

2) I read more into the "be exciting and fight you a$$ off" than "if you lost x in a row you are gone".

3) I hate to even defend Kos, but he is in a way that "company man". He stepped in on short notice to fight Hughes and has offered to do that on several occasions. I am sure that these actions sit well with the company.



4) I did support Max, but I am not about to make it a guideline for every instance. By your logic, lets look at some guys that are on losing streaks that should be gone:

- Rashad Evans - lost last 2, likely not going to be champ again.
- Rich Franklin - 2-2 in last 4, likely not going to be champ again.
- Wanderlei Silva - 2-2 in last 4, likely not going to be champ.
- BJ Penn - 1-2-1 in last 4, likely will not be champ again.

5) Should these guys still be in the UFC based on their last few fights? They all should stay because they are well known names and people want to see them fight.

6) What they have to decide is if the amount of money they have to pay Koscheck is worth it compared to what he does for them. And I would believe that he does still have some value.

7) Let me ask you this Dave and this is not trying to take a shot at your favorite fighter. Do you think Zuffa, as a whole, treated Jens well? They allowed him to stay around and lose 5 fights in a row without releasing him.

1) I think they should have a rule. One Rule, practised over all. You wouldnt tollerate this from a Government would you??? Why tollerate it from any company? Just because it belongs to someone, doesnt give them the right to treat their employees badly....or are you fine with coorperate slaves? You dont want to be slaves to your Government...but your fine being a Slave to your Employer? (I mean...where they act in a morally bankrupt way, obviously)

2) of course you did...and there is an argument that says Dana White is doing this to try and limit the number of decisions on a card, and just to shake up those who think any loss is good. But if thats true he still did it at the expense of people who didnt deserve to be Cut.

3) You mean he is a Favourite Thats the problem with at will employers...its bribes and corruption isnt it. if your face fits...if your a "Yes" Man as we put it in England. If you suck up to those in power, and kiss enough ass

4) Oh...I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about clearing the Roster for the elite fighters...not keeping a bunch of "names" Without order there is chaos. For business purposes, you have to be prepared to fire those who are not the elite, or else you arent the "Ultimate" fighting Championships are you?

5) Ludwig Beck was a very high ranking official in the German Army when Hitler came to power. He was one of the key leaders of a plott to kill Adolf Hitler in 1944, a plott which failed. After the Nazi party had reclaimed Berlin they took out those behind the plott, lined them up, and shot them all.

But Ludwig Beck was not amoung them. Because of his Status and his time served in the army, they offered him a pistol, and he did himself.

Dana White has made it clear that BJ Penn should resign and never fight again. That is exactly the same thing. He is offering Penn a way out that would save the embarissment of being forceably removed, by getting him to remove himself. They've done it with Chuck Liddell...and they've done it with Matt Hughes...Dana White made no silence in saying he wanted both to permanently retire..nothing left to proove, etc...and they will do it, no doubt this year to Rich Franklin aswell...I suspect that W.Silva, should he loose his fight next week will jump before he is pushed. He may not expect that level of courtesy from the UFC but cant see him waiting for them...its a phrase known as "falling on ones sword"

Who knows what will happen to Rashad Evans...and frankly...

6) If they dont cut him, they are hypocrits, who lie about wanting only the elite, and just want to keep their friends.

7) Well, they actually moved him from the UFC to the WEC because they couldnt justify him being in the UFC no more. I think during the WEC tenure something was going on with Jens...I'm still certain that he deliberately, for some reason held back in fighting Urijah Faber, I remember discussing that possibility with Jacob Hey at UFC 85 not long after. Jens is a special case even for the UFC because of the whole lower weight class...essentially, the Legacy of Jens Pulver is that you have 155lb fighters, and 145lbs and 135lbs and maybe eventually 125lbs divisions.

I wonder whether they actually trust him though, because they could have used him further and chose not to..I think they feel he might be a loose cannon. The commentating job was absolutely made for him, and they dithered and then never bothered...and they do him a dis-service by putting Mask in the hall of fame and not him.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by flo

private businesses are not necessarily democratic (thank goodness!). Owners are still flexible in policy and allowed to make their own decisions.

Democratic is the wrong word...but you know what I mean...I mean, they are fair and have some standards that they keep.

I do kinda think Black and White is a good place to start...even with flexible policy...you shouldnt just be making things up as you go along

[kevint13]

1) I think they should have a rule. One Rule, practised over all. You wouldnt tollerate this from a Government would you??? Why tollerate it from any company? Just because it belongs to someone, doesnt give them the right to treat their employees badly....or are you fine with coorperate slaves? You dont want to be slaves to your Government...but your fine being a Slave to your Employer? (I mean...where they act in a morally bankrupt way, obviously)

Unfortunately their methods of running a company are successful from a financial standpoint which to them is the most important. Remember, UFC is a business and not a sport.

I used to work for a company where I didn't feel that they treated people very well. I left on my own rather than risk getting fired because walking on egg shells waiting to get let go wasn't worth it. You never know what criteria they were going to use ie. age, performance, ect. It was the best decision that I ever made. The point is, businesses will operate however they want as long as they are within the law. The UFC is no different and not breaking any laws.

Morals and ethics are thrown out the window for most businesses, they are in it for financial purposes, not to be humane and employ people. That's just how it is....you can wish they actually cared, but they don't. I presume it is like this almost everywhere or there are companies like this everywhere. Unfortunately you just have to build a bridge and get over it!

2) of course you did...and there is an argument that says Dana White is doing this to try and limit the number of decisions on a card, and just to shake up those who think any loss is good. But if thats true he still did it at the expense of people who didnt deserve to be Cut.

Deserving is in the eye of the beholder and based on any criteria that you want to use. The UFC obviously had a reason to cut these fighters and they cut fighters all the time. This is only a big deal to everyone because one big name was on there. I am not going to argue 'deserving' because there is no cut and dry answer and I am completely ok with there not being one. This is where you and I will always be different, and that is ok too.

3) You mean he is a Favourite Thats the problem with at will employers...its bribes and corruption isnt it. if your face fits...if your a "Yes" Man as we put it in England. If you suck up to those in power, and kiss enough ass

He may be well liked by the UFC, but again he has a large fan base and another group, me included, that will pay to see him get his a$$ kicked! The UFC knows this and should gain from it, unless they can project him not being worth it which I think he is getting closer to, but not yet.

4) Oh...I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about clearing the Roster for the elite fighters...not keeping a bunch of "names" Without order there is chaos. For business purposes, you have to be prepared to fire those who are not the elite, or else you arent the "Ultimate" fighting Championships are you?

But us, as a fan and friend of some fighters, have to realize that some of our favorites are not 'Ultimate' either. They were given an opportunity to showcase their skills and unfortunately they are not 'Ultimate' at this time. Maybe they were and that is keeping them around, and I am ok with that. They have earned a little leeway.

5) Dana White has made it clear that BJ Penn should resign and never fight again. That is exactly the same thing. He is offering Penn a way out that would save the embarissment of being forceably removed, by getting him to remove himself. They've done it with Chuck Liddell...and they've done it with Matt Hughes...Dana White made no silence in saying he wanted both to permanently retire..nothing left to proove, etc...and they will do it, no doubt this year to Rich Franklin aswell...I suspect that W.Silva, should he loose his fight next week will jump before he is pushed. He may not expect that level of courtesy from the UFC but cant see him waiting for them...its a phrase known as "falling on ones sword"

Who knows what will happen to Rashad Evans...and frankly...

The point is, if they have lost 2 or 3 in a row and whether they are at the end of their careers or not, why should they get to leave graciously when others don't get to? Your side seems to be: everyone treated the same, no favorites. Am I right?

6) If they dont cut him, they are hypocrits, who lie about wanting only the elite, and just want to keep their friends.

They aren't being hypocrites, you cannot look at each situation or fighter the same. If that were the case, why is Ian McCall still around? He is still there because he busts his a$$ every fight and because there are so few fighters in the 125 pound division. There are some divisions have a ton of fighters many more than are needed, why is it so wrong to get rid of some and let them go pursue other opportunities when there just aren't any in the UFC right now.

7) Well, they actually moved him from the UFC to the WEC because they couldnt justify him being in the UFC no more. I think during the WEC tenure something was going on with Jens...I'm still certain that he deliberately, for some reason held back in fighting Urijah Faber, I remember discussing that possibility with Jacob Hey at UFC 85 not long after. Jens is a special case even for the UFC because of the whole lower weight class...essentially, the Legacy of Jens Pulver is that you have 155lb fighters, and 145lbs and 135lbs and maybe eventually 125lbs divisions.

I wonder whether they actually trust him though, because they could have used him further and chose not to..I think they feel he might be a loose cannon. The commentating job was absolutely made for him, and they dithered and then never bothered...and they do him a dis-service by putting Mask in the hall of fame and not him.

I may be wrong, but I believe Jens chose to leave to go fight at 145 pounds. Still, he won 1 fight under Zuffa since he returned. I love Jens and I love watching him fight, but how he didn't get cut sooner is beyond me. Obviously he is a favorite of Zuffa, is that ok?

Businesses that are operating in sports are run entirely different than you want them to. That is a reality. I know that this is not a business, per se, but is it fair for the England national team to cut David Beckham who is still fit to play? Afterall, this would be like firing him and your country seems to have a right to employment. And these guys do get paid to play on this team. Is it possible that this is looked at as an 'honor' to play on that team? Can't it be an honor to fight in the UFC and not a right?

[flo]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I thought America was about Freedoms and Rights for all men (including those employed) and a land where all men were created equal (Including those who run multimillion pound companies) with a people that believed in Democrasy (to hold those liable to produce Tyrany if left unchecked to account) and the abolition of autocratic mechanisms (like At Will Employers, and a lack of Unions) in order that justice (like having one rule for all, rather then so many execeptions you have two rules) and peace prevail.

We are about freedoms and rights, including the freedom of employers to hire and fire who they want. We are a republic with an economic system based on capitalism. We love millionaires (those of us who aren't socialists, that is) and are proud that we have a system where everyone has a fair shot at becoming a millionaire. In our capitalist republic, that is a success story.

[flo]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Democratic is the wrong word...but you know what I mean...I mean, they are fair and have some standards that they keep.

I wasn't talking about the political party but the adjective: pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality.

People aren't in business for social equality. They are in business to make a profit.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by flo

we have a system where everyone has a fair shot at becoming a millionaire. In our capitalist republic, that is a success story.

Only for the few who make it...not the myriads that fail.

LAs changed a lot over the years, since those great gold rush pioneers came in their creaky covered wagons, as far as they could go, end of the line, their dreams were yours, their dreams were mine.

But in those dreams were hidden dragons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1atWehdBp7M

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by kevint13

1) Unfortunately their methods of running a company are successful from a financial standpoint which to them is the most important. Remember, UFC is a business and not a sport.

I used to work for a company where I didn't feel that they treated people very well. I left on my own rather than risk getting fired because walking on egg shells waiting to get let go wasn't worth it. You never know what criteria they were going to use ie. age, performance, ect. It was the best decision that I ever made. The point is, businesses will operate however they want as long as they are within the law. The UFC is no different and not breaking any laws.

Morals and ethics are thrown out the window for most businesses, they are in it for financial purposes, not to be humane and employ people. That's just how it is....you can wish they actually cared, but they don't. I presume it is like this almost everywhere or there are companies like this everywhere. Unfortunately you just have to build a bridge and get over it!



2) Deserving is in the eye of the beholder and based on any criteria that you want to use. The UFC obviously had a reason to cut these fighters and they cut fighters all the time. This is only a big deal to everyone because one big name was on there. I am not going to argue 'deserving' because there is no cut and dry answer and I am completely ok with there not being one. This is where you and I will always be different, and that is ok too.



3) He may be well liked by the UFC, but again he has a large fan base and another group, me included, that will pay to see him get his a$$ kicked! The UFC knows this and should gain from it, unless they can project him not being worth it which I think he is getting closer to, but not yet.



4) But us, as a fan and friend of some fighters, have to realize that some of our favorites are not 'Ultimate' either. They were given an opportunity to showcase their skills and unfortunately they are not 'Ultimate' at this time. Maybe they were and that is keeping them around, and I am ok with that. They have earned a little leeway.



5) The point is, if they have lost 2 or 3 in a row and whether they are at the end of their careers or not, why should they get to leave graciously when others don't get to? Your side seems to be: everyone treated the same, no favorites. Am I right?



6) They aren't being hypocrites, you cannot look at each situation or fighter the same. If that were the case, why is Ian McCall still around? He is still there because he busts his a$$ every fight and because there are so few fighters in the 125 pound division. There are some divisions have a ton of fighters many more than are needed, why is it so wrong to get rid of some and let them go pursue other opportunities when there just aren't any in the UFC right now.



7) I may be wrong, but I believe Jens chose to leave to go fight at 145 pounds. Still, he won 1 fight under Zuffa since he returned. I love Jens and I love watching him fight, but how he didn't get cut sooner is beyond me. Obviously he is a favorite of Zuffa, is that ok?

8) Businesses that are operating in sports are run entirely different than you want them to. That is a reality. I know that this is not a business, per se, but is it fair for the England national team to cut David Beckham who is still fit to play? Afterall, this would be like firing him and your country seems to have a right to employment. And these guys do get paid to play on this team. Is it possible that this is looked at as an 'honor' to play on that team? Can't it be an honor to fight in the UFC and not a right?

1) Capitalistic Companies are there to make money, I understand that, but there is a point at which their desire to make money often over steps the bounds of morality which should be a concern for everyone

In England the Law keeps a far better ballence in terms of allowing freedom for those who created the business, and own them, but also providing safe guards for those who work in them. In England noone can just get up and leave if they dont like who they work for...if that was the case, we would all have done it...but jobs are so hard to come by these days that if you have a job, you do everything you can to keep it, no matter how shyte your employers get...and believe me, Capitalist Companies, they will do anything to make profit...in harder times when they can not make that profit, they make cuts...when you are in the position of being paid a single persons wage, but doing the job of multiple persons, so the Company doesnt spend so much on wages, you know things are hard

But its ethically wrong to have the ability to dismiss someone for no good and valid reason. In this country, basically, they cant just fire you. They have to follow set guidelines, and they have to be applied to everyone regardless of status...although you find there are people, sometimes so high up that are protected by their status...thats relatively rare now...or at least ive never encountered that.

2) I dont mind that they cut Jon fitch...but a great many Britons are angry that the UFC basically cut nearly all their grass roots potential from this country....is it good business sence to cut upcomming british fighters, when the few british names you have at the top are...basically, crap

3) You want him to stay on...so you can enjoy watching him fail again

4) But some of those cut, were basically ultimate to win, with stoppages three out of five matches, to only have been finished once in the only two losses on your entire record...and to be young enough to bounce back from that...and yet still be granted none of that precious "leeway" The company cant claim its about "ultimates" when it safe guards some obvious failiures can it??

5) I didnt say it was the right thing to do...I just said thats what they do with their favourites...and no I dont think thats right either....I think I refered to it as "Bribes and corruption" "Sucking up and ass kissing" or something like that

6) Let them go persue other opportunities That is the justification I came up with for myself one day in June. I had done absolutely nothing wrong, my Employer had turned against me, out of the blue I was bought into a little room and told to Resign or be fired. I spent the entire day wandering around pondering my decision...I decided that maybe it was okay...I'd just go do something else...having made that decision I went into my local and found others from my work place and told them all about it and they were horrified. They told me that Employers are not allowed to do that, and that I was bloody well going to fight for my rights...I had spent all day turning this ultimatum into a fair agrreement...but it wasnt a fair agreement, it was an ultimatum. I went back to my Employer, told them that I was not going to go quietly, and, as per there side of the deal, they began to fabricate evidences to mount a constructive dismissal campaign...they moved fast because you have to have been working for an employer a year to gain rights of unfair dismissal at a tribuneral...and knowing that, they wanted rid of me quickly.

the Registrar at the first disciplinary was so taken by my stance, he offered to represent me in later disciplinaries but I declined his offer. During the first Disciplinary I lost the pannel, whilst they returned a verdict of guilty, they could not apply any sentance because I had prooved their trial corrupted. I won the second disciplinary...and then they ran out of time for the third...and when I passed my year, the whole thing vanished into the ether...as if It had never happened.

GOD knows what I would have done if they were an At Will employer who didnt need to legitamize themselves...my entire way of life would have been distroyed, I would have been homeless, financially bankrupt. The desperate irony is that particular "company" was NOT a Capitalist Company...It was The Church.

7) I cant remember to be honnest, not without looking it up. I think back then, anyone who had been around a long time was demoted before being given the boot...they could do that because WEC was already seen as having been given the boot from the UFC...it was a demotion.

I dont think he was a favourite...for the reasons I gave before...if he was a favourite he would have been converted to a role as commentator and forced into retirement...perhaps he rejected them...I dont know...I might ask him.

8) It SHOULD be an honour to fight for the UFC...the reason why it isnt is because the UFC dont act in a professional and honourable way to their employees, or...at all....people think that Dana White is so refreshing because he speaks so crudely...but...in a sence he cant be taken seriously, because he says never...then does it, changes his mind, tells us, every new fight is the biggest in UFC history...He's not really a respectable character...and he tarnishes his own belts with fast tracking and the likes.

Respect is earned...its given to mature people, professional organisations...the UFC top brass are neither...well Dana White isnt...the very thought of telling an employee they are cut by Twitter...for example...he appologized...but any true businessman with any credibility would NEVER have ever let that be a possibility. Part of this is because they are too informal...they make too much up as they go along, rather then having a defined standard procedure...they make themselves look illegitamate...the whole reason we are discussing this is exactly why "Honour" is not really involved...You cant really regard the UFC as sacred or with any reverence at all...I dont know if you can ever change that really...I dont know how you'd start...I dont really know if its needed...I just want them to treat these fighters in a just manner

[flo]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Only for the few who make it...not the myriads that fail.

LAs changed a lot over the years, since those great gold rush pioneers came in their creaky covered wagons, as far as they could go, end of the line, their dreams were yours, their dreams were mine.

But in those dreams were hidden dragons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1atWehdBp7M

It's not a few, it's a LOT of people! And I don't consider people like my husband and me "failures" because we don't earn a million dollars :-)

I think you just like to stir the pot. Anyone here has the opportunity, if they're willing to work hard for it.

[kevint13]

1) Capitalistic Companies are there to make money, I understand that, but there is a point at which their desire to make money often over steps the bounds of morality which should be a concern for everyone

In England the Law keeps a far better ballence in terms of allowing freedom for those who created the business, and own them, but also providing safe guards for those who work in them. In England noone can just get up and leave if they dont like who they work for...if that was the case, we would all have done it...but jobs are so hard to come by these days that if you have a job, you do everything you can to keep it, no matter how shyte your employers get...and believe me, Capitalist Companies, they will do anything to make profit...in harder times when they can not make that profit, they make cuts...when you are in the position of being paid a single persons wage, but doing the job of multiple persons, so the Company doesnt spend so much on wages, you know things are hard

But its ethically wrong to have the ability to dismiss someone for no good and valid reason. In this country, basically, they cant just fire you. They have to follow set guidelines, and they have to be applied to everyone regardless of status...although you find there are people, sometimes so high up that are protected by their status...thats relatively rare now...or at least ive never encountered that.

But this is no different here. Times are tough here too and many people are staying in jobs that they absolutely hate because they don't have a choice. I chose to walk away from a situation like this. Thankfully I have been able to 'make things work' and am currently back in school, which I will be for the next 3 years.

We do have the ability to walk away from a crappy job, I am very thankful for this as my job had destroyed my health both physically and mentally. I guess I would rather have this right than guaranteed employment.

2) I dont mind that they cut Jon fitch...but a great many Britons are angry that the UFC basically cut nearly all their grass roots potential from this country....is it good business sence to cut upcomming british fighters, when the few british names you have at the top are...basically, crap

Upcoming fighters are different than contenders. Maybe the UFC does not want to develop fighters and they want contenders now. Is that wrong?

3) You want him to stay on...so you can enjoy watching him fail again

I guess I do. But Koscheck has assumed that role and he seems to enjoy being the 'villain'. So I don't see an issue with that and I am sure I am not alone.

4) But some of those cut, were basically ultimate to win, with stoppages three out of five matches, to only have been finished once in the only two losses on your entire record...and to be young enough to bounce back from that...and yet still be granted none of that precious "leeway" The company cant claim its about "ultimates" when it safe guards some obvious failiures can it??

You are obviously referring to Paul Sass. Let's look at a few other stats: He had 4 strikes total in his fight with Castillo....4...and that is a fight that went to a decision. His other loss was a first round submission. Sass is a talented fighter, but right now I don't think he is a contender or close to it nor are the two guys who beat him.

Now take a look at the UFC's LW division. Have you seen how many fighters they have under contract? Some of these guys will be gone here too, they just haven't fought yet this year.

5) I didnt say it was the right thing to do...I just said thats what they do with their favourites...and no I dont think thats right either....I think I refered to it as "Bribes and corruption" "Sucking up and ass kissing" or something like that

Kissing ass happens everywhere and in a lot of cases it works for people. Life is cut-throat and people will resort to extreme lows to get what they want/need. You can't let it bother you because it isn't going to change.

6) Let them go persue other opportunities That is the justification I came up with for myself one day in June. I had done absolutely nothing wrong, my Employer had turned against me, out of the blue I was bought into a little room and told to Resign or be fired. I spent the entire day wandering around pondering my decision...I decided that maybe it was okay...I'd just go do something else...having made that decision I went into my local and found others from my work place and told them all about it and they were horrified. They told me that Employers are not allowed to do that, and that I was bloody well going to fight for my rights...I had spent all day turning this ultimatum into a fair agrreement...but it wasnt a fair agreement, it was an ultimatum. I went back to my Employer, told them that I was not going to go quietly, and, as per there side of the deal, they began to fabricate evidences to mount a constructive dismissal campaign...they moved fast because you have to have been working for an employer a year to gain rights of unfair dismissal at a tribuneral...and knowing that, they wanted rid of me quickly.

the Registrar at the first disciplinary was so taken by my stance, he offered to represent me in later disciplinaries but I declined his offer. During the first Disciplinary I lost the pannel, whilst they returned a verdict of guilty, they could not apply any sentance because I had prooved their trial corrupted. I won the second disciplinary...and then they ran out of time for the third...and when I passed my year, the whole thing vanished into the ether...as if It had never happened.

GOD knows what I would have done if they were an At Will employer who didnt need to legitamize themselves...my entire way of life would have been distroyed, I would have been homeless, financially bankrupt. The desperate irony is that particular "company" was NOT a Capitalist Company...It was The Church.

That sucks, I feel for you and can sort of relate. You stuck up for yourself, I admire that. Just like you are doing on this, you are sticking up for the fighters, some being your friends. While we will disagree on if this was just, I can't argue against your passion. These fighters will do the same, they will fight again and hopefully give the UFC a reason to bring them back....they are fighters afterall.

7) I cant remember to be honnest, not without looking it up. I think back then, anyone who had been around a long time was demoted before being given the boot...they could do that because WEC was already seen as having been given the boot from the UFC...it was a demotion.

I dont think he was a favourite...for the reasons I gave before...if he was a favourite he would have been converted to a role as commentator and forced into retirement...perhaps he rejected them...I dont know...I might ask him.

It doesn't matter, my point was that he was given many chances and he lost, and in all buy one he was stopped. Most other fighters would have been cut after 3 losses, yet he lost 5 in a row. There had to be a reason that they kept him, which could easily be viewed as favoritism.

8) It SHOULD be an honour to fight for the UFC...the reason why it isnt is because the UFC dont act in a professional and honourable way to their employees, or...at all....people think that Dana White is so refreshing because he speaks so crudely...but...in a sence he cant be taken seriously, because he says never...then does it, changes his mind, tells us, every new fight is the biggest in UFC history...He's not really a respectable character...and he tarnishes his own belts with fast tracking and the likes.

Respect is earned...its given to mature people, professional organisations...the UFC top brass are neither...well Dana White isnt...the very thought of telling an employee they are cut by Twitter...for example...he appologized...but any true businessman with any credibility would NEVER have ever let that be a possibility. Part of this is because they are too informal...they make too much up as they go along, rather then having a defined standard procedure...they make themselves look illegitamate...the whole reason we are discussing this is exactly why "Honour" is not really involved...You cant really regard the UFC as sacred or with any reverence at all...I dont know if you can ever change that really...I dont know how you'd start...I dont really know if its needed...I just want them to treat these fighters in a just manner

I don't agree with a lot of things that Dana says or does, but there are some things that I do. He has said 'Never' to things only to do them, but when has it ever been wrong to change your mind or actually get informed and make a rational decision?

I still don't buy that he is into women's MMA, he is into Ronda. I really wanted to see her lose last night just to see what he would do. You want to talk about favoritism, there it is.

In all, I think Dana is a good guy and does his job the best that he can. I can't imagine all that he deals with all the time....the guy seriously lives this. He has a passion for the sport that cannot be denied, but it is definitely business first. I don't hold that against him.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by flo

It's not a few, it's a LOT of people! And I don't consider people like my husband and me "failures" because we don't earn a million dollars :-)

I think you just like to stir the pot. Anyone here has the opportunity, if they're willing to work hard for it.

its not just working hard for it though...its luck as much as hard work...because you could be the hardest worker in the world, and get a bum deal from your at will employer...Some of those guys the UFC cut, work harder, I KNOW, then some who remain on the roster.

My whole argument is that its NOT about hard work and accomplishment with the UFC...its about who they favour and like and who they protect...NOT about who is the Elite or most hard working fighters.

...and for the record...I dont think you are a failure NOONE who can grow Gardens like yours could ever be considered a failure, or be accused of not being hard working...I dont know about your actual job...but I do know about Gardening...I know I put a shed load of effort in and there is no way in Hell I would EVER manage to create something like what you've done...I remember when you showed me something about laying those bricks around a bed or something...and I thought...I wish I could do that now assuming you put as much effort into your work as you would do that (which is a fair assumption coz you tend to find, hard workers, are hardworkers at anything they do...lazy people, and lazy at everything) you probably dont have a million quid because your employer probably under values you...I expect I would see what you were doing and say your employer hasnt rewarded you for what you've done properly either.

I would give you a million pounds...but...I dont have a million pounds either...I am actually in a real low paying job, considering I am a graduate I am working on changing that, but it takes time...and any job is better then no job in a recession.