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  #11  
Old 02-21-2013, 12:51 PM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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dana never liked jon fitch to start, so his last loss was just a reason to get rid of him ... plus, everyone is onto his gameplan ... he's been figured out .... doubt he was gonna make another title run ....
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by flo View Post
Great points, Dave! I think you're absolutely correct. Ditto for code of conduct working both ways.



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Thanks Flo
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Max View Post
If a fighter is simply a permanent mid-card guy whats the point in keeping him? Why not cut him and bring in new guys and see if one of them has what it takes to be a future champion.
Because Europeans are NOT Americans...There is a few things you dont understand about the British Attitude to Employment.

In The United States, nine out of ten employers are known as "At Will" employers. This means they often dont indulge in written contracts, forever keep you on two weeks notice...and dont need any reason other then a dislike of you to sack you.

AND...If that happens, and you get sacked, they do not provide Unions for unfair dismissal, they do not pay you redundancy or a settlement for doing something morally bankrupt.

Thats how it is in the US, borne out of the "American Dream" that YOU can do anything you want...BUT if you fail...its all on YOU.

England, and most of the rest of the world doesnt do that. We believe that Employers have certain responsibilities, and Workers have certain "GOD-Given" Rights. We have Civil Law and Industrial Tribunerals that mean that IF a Company want to sack you they need a VALID REASON. They also, have to have in writting, which is legally binding, the idea that THEY have Rules which THEY MUST FOLLOW. This is inclusive of Subcontractors...and even people who dont work for you but get hurt on your premises in accidents and the likes.

In England, ANY US Company who Employs in a manner which is recongised by the British Government...MUST abide by BRITISH EMPLOYMENT LAW. The Ultimate Fighting Championship has failed to do this. I suspect, that they may not be recognised as a Company in the UK that Employ people because if they did...they couldnt legally do what they did to Paul Sass, Terry Etim, or Che Mills.

I suspect they get away with it because they will claim that the British Staff are Employed by and at a branch in the United States, and therefore, officially, their place of employment is in the US, under US Law, even if they then work in the UK...it would effectively be classed as an American Deployment of a British member of Staff.

I suspect the benefit of that is that Paul Sass and others may not be taxed on their earnings, because officially its not going on in the United Kingdom. The pay, the contracts, the employment, are all in the US...but deployed in the UK for events.

Never the less...they deal with people who would view a threat to their job as a threat to their livelihood and a threat to their very existance. I expect that actually, at least one out of the three probably has a full time employment job anyway in England...but thats not the point.

Europeans are likely to hate you forever if you sack them without following procedures or for no particular reason. They would consider that grossly unfair, and harbour ill will about the situation for years.

The UFC may not be aware that Europeans feel VERY differently about the whole ideal of employment. It isnt common place to have your lifeline financially taken away at the drop of a hat without any recompense, or any need for your Employers to justify themselves...to us, that is absolutely outrageous...outrageous enough that in this country it would be ILLEGAL... a Firm that did to those fighters what the UFC just did...would be taken to a Tribuneral at the VERY Least

You CAN NOT just sack people because you dont want them anymore. British people subjected to that will NOT respond well, they will NOT forget, they will NOT forgive.

Which is fine for the UFC...unless they go to a competator and start doing really well. Also...British Fans are going to be thinking the same as I've put above....Check out Facebook if you dont believe me...The hardcore British fans,, many associated with the Fight Teams themselves, are absolutely livid.

That is not good for business, if you charge extortinate tickets and PPV and expect to expand mainstream in this country. The UFC already dont sell out their British Cards anymore...Dana White better prepare for a more hostile reception on these Isles next time he visits...even if thats not for months...this feeling of having been hard done by, and basically spat upon, by a pompous American Company...isnt going away...and may not go away even if the UFC were to U-Tern....There is no guarentee that some of these guys would EVER want to fight for such a company again, on principle of how they have been wrongly treated...something which the American Fighters dont have an issue with

Just like if you leave a Tip in China, you will offend the propriator...If you threaten, or if you do, give the boot to a European without a good valid reason, its considered one of the most offensive things you could possibly do towards them. Its not a carefree matter...its a serious two finger gesture at someone from my Culture, its...frankly, unspeakably ugly. I am no exception to that...if I hold a position within an organization, whether employment, or voluntary, and they aggressively move to dismiss me, or they threaten me with dismissal...then you can forget any friendship between us, no matter what you may have done for me in the past...if you threaten my existance in terms of affiliation to an instution, or you threaten me with consequences of financial hardship, we will be at War....

Its been Nine Years since my last Paid Employer tried that. Despite the fact that they were not successful, I have NEVER forgotten, and the impact is one of the largest on my entire three decades of life. The last voluntary association that offended me in the same way (minus obviously the financial implications) was less then a month ago, after a series of threats which were issued over the course of the last eight years...I finally had enough of their bad attitude and told them where to keep their Voluntary position, which had long since lost its perks at any rate. I havent forgotten what they did either, and my Friendship with the individual I hold directly accountable is terminated, my Friendship with the individual I hold indirectly responsible is probably irreperably damaged.

Whilst in the US, their is this stupid air of professional silence...that doesnt wash in my Culture...if someone pisses on you, then you are entitled to shame them publically. Infact its encouraged, because the force of popular opinion often makes these companies bow to the pressure.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
Because Europeans are NOT Americans...There is a few things you dont understand about the British Attitude to Employment.

In The United States, nine out of ten employers are known as "At Will" employers. This means they often dont indulge in written contracts, forever keep you on two weeks notice...and dont need any reason other then a dislike of you to sack you.

AND...If that happens, and you get sacked, they do not provide Unions for unfair dismissal, they do not pay you redundancy or a settlement for doing something morally bankrupt.

Thats how it is in the US, borne out of the "American Dream" that YOU can do anything you want...BUT if you fail...its all on YOU.

England, and most of the rest of the world doesnt do that. We believe that Employers have certain responsibilities, and Workers have certain "GOD-Given" Rights. We have Civil Law and Industrial Tribunerals that mean that IF a Company want to sack you they need a VALID REASON. They also, have to have in writting, which is legally binding, the idea that THEY have Rules which THEY MUST FOLLOW. This is inclusive of Subcontractors...and even people who dont work for you but get hurt on your premises in accidents and the likes.

In England, ANY US Company who Employs in a manner which is recongised by the British Government...MUST abide by BRITISH EMPLOYMENT LAW. The Ultimate Fighting Championship has failed to do this. I suspect, that they may not be recognised as a Company in the UK that Employ people because if they did...they couldnt legally do what they did to Paul Sass, Terry Etim, or Che Mills.

I suspect they get away with it because they will claim that the British Staff are Employed by and at a branch in the United States, and therefore, officially, their place of employment is in the US, under US Law, even if they then work in the UK...it would effectively be classed as an American Deployment of a British member of Staff.

I suspect the benefit of that is that Paul Sass and others may not be taxed on their earnings, because officially its not going on in the United Kingdom. The pay, the contracts, the employment, are all in the US...but deployed in the UK for events.

Never the less...they deal with people who would view a threat to their job as a threat to their livelihood and a threat to their very existance. I expect that actually, at least one out of the three probably has a full time employment job anyway in England...but thats not the point.

Europeans are likely to hate you forever if you sack them without following procedures or for no particular reason. They would consider that grossly unfair, and harbour ill will about the situation for years.

The UFC may not be aware that Europeans feel VERY differently about the whole ideal of employment. It isnt common place to have your lifeline financially taken away at the drop of a hat without any recompense, or any need for your Employers to justify themselves...to us, that is absolutely outrageous...outrageous enough that in this country it would be ILLEGAL... a Firm that did to those fighters what the UFC just did...would be taken to a Tribuneral at the VERY Least

You CAN NOT just sack people because you dont want them anymore. British people subjected to that will NOT respond well, they will NOT forget, they will NOT forgive.

Which is fine for the UFC...unless they go to a competator and start doing really well. Also...British Fans are going to be thinking the same as I've put above....Check out Facebook if you dont believe me...The hardcore British fans,, many associated with the Fight Teams themselves, are absolutely livid.

That is not good for business, if you charge extortinate tickets and PPV and expect to expand mainstream in this country. The UFC already dont sell out their British Cards anymore...Dana White better prepare for a more hostile reception on these Isles next time he visits...even if thats not for months...this feeling of having been hard done by, and basically spat upon, by a pompous American Company...isnt going away...and may not go away even if the UFC were to U-Tern....There is no guarentee that some of these guys would EVER want to fight for such a company again, on principle of how they have been wrongly treated...something which the American Fighters dont have an issue with

Just like if you leave a Tip in China, you will offend the propriator...If you threaten, or if you do, give the boot to a European without a good valid reason, its considered one of the most offensive things you could possibly do towards them. Its not a carefree matter...its a serious two finger gesture at someone from my Culture, its...frankly, unspeakably ugly. I am no exception to that...if I hold a position within an organization, whether employment, or voluntary, and they aggressively move to dismiss me, or they threaten me with dismissal...then you can forget any friendship between us, no matter what you may have done for me in the past...if you threaten my existance in terms of affiliation to an instution, or you threaten me with consequences of financial hardship, we will be at War....

Its been Nine Years since my last Paid Employer tried that. Despite the fact that they were not successful, I have NEVER forgotten, and the impact is one of the largest on my entire three decades of life. The last voluntary association that offended me in the same way (minus obviously the financial implications) was less then a month ago, after a series of threats which were issued over the course of the last eight years...I finally had enough of their bad attitude and told them where to keep their Voluntary position, which had long since lost its perks at any rate. I havent forgotten what they did either, and my Friendship with the individual I hold directly accountable is terminated, my Friendship with the individual I hold indirectly responsible is probably irreperably damaged.

Whilst in the US, their is this stupid air of professional silence...that doesnt wash in my Culture...if someone pisses on you, then you are entitled to shame them publically. Infact its encouraged, because the force of popular opinion often makes these companies bow to the pressure.
I won't lie, I didn't read your entire post. Do these fighters really feel that they have been wrongly treated?

Here's my 2 cents. These fighters are contractors, they sign a contract to fight x number of fights knowing that this contract can be terminated beforehand by the employer. Hence, they know what they are getting into before signing.

Also, if a fighter or any employee is not contributing to the generation of revenue, why should they continue to have a job? Dana said today that they have over 450 fighters on the roster and that is 100 too many. This is a business and fighters know going in that they may not be with the UFC forever or at all.

I respect and appreciate your passion for the sport and how your culture is, but I just don't see how anyone can think these fighters that were cut were "wronged".
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:15 PM
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Also, think of it this way. On a normal fight card there are 10-12 fights, so 20-24 fighters. With the current 450 person roster, it would take about 20 cards to allow each person to fight once! Fans want to see titles defended, they want to see the top guys fight a couple times a year. With a huge roster this cannot happen.

These cuts, overall, are good for everyone. It might suck at first, but it allows fighters to not get shelved and can go out and fight more frequently. It may even help them overall and get them back in the UFC. For the UFC, it allows them to deliver the highest quality product that they can.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:00 PM
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""Jon Fitch is f***ing expensive." - Dana White

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/2/22...iUfHz7oOsQ3l2F

(apparently this just takes you to the "Morning Report", so you'll need to scroll down to the "Media Stew" section to watch the video)
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:02 PM
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Dana White on UFC roster cuts: 'There's 100 more guys that are gonna go'


From MMAFighting.com:
Quote:
ANAHEIM, Calif. -- Consider it 2013's version of "Do you want to be a f--- fighter?"

The UFC made waves on Wednesday by cutting 16 fighters from the roster, including the stunning decision to part ways with veteran welterweight contender Jon Fitch.

But on Thursday, UFC president Dana White told reporters that the cuts were simply the tip of the iceberg, and that as many as 100 fighters out of a roster of nearly 500 could get their walking papers.

"There's 100 more guys that are gonna go. It's not over," White said following the UFC 157 press conference. "We have 475 guys under contract. We have over 100 guys too many. We have over 100 guys too many on the roster right now. What's going to happen is, if you lose, the blood has not all been spilled yet. There's more coming."

The bulging roster is a result of several factors, including the addition of flyweights, women's competitors, and former Strikeforce fighters of myriad weight classes.

While White won't come right out and say that boring fighters are going to be cut from the company, he did make it clear the company puts a premium on those with crowd-pleasing styles.

"What you should do is try to go out and be the best in the world," White said. "And you should try to go out and whup everybody's ass and impress them. It depends on how much money you want to make. If you want to go around and lay on people, how many people are beating down the door to see any of those guys fight again?"

White mentioned two fighters whose names have been brought up by fans since Wednesday's news came down: Dan Hardy and Leonard Garcia. Hardy was once retained despite losing four straight fights, while Garcia has several losses and a couple questionable decision wins on his record.

"Guys lose some fights and, you know what, Dan Hardy puts it out there all the time, we're going to keep Dan Hardy," White said. "I'm going to keep Leonard Garcia because the guy's got heart. He comes in to fight. And then you get into a situation where, you've got a lot of guys here. I tell the guys on The Ultimate Fighter, every one of you are going to fight on the card. You get in these situations sometime. You go on a f--- skid in this business, you gotta go, and you gotta go win some fights and come back. No different than it's ever been since day one in this company."

The UFC boss also used the performances put on by several former Strikeforce fighters on the UFC 156 undercard as the sort of thing he wants to see from his fighters going forward.

"I go back to Bobby Green," White said. "Bobby Green fought [Jacob] Volkmann. Bobby Green did not f--- quit in the fight. Referee screwed him big-time, right when he gets that top position, and he's doing damage, she stands him up. The kid stays in there, he fought until the end and he fought until he won. If you want to stay in this f--- company, that's how you better fight. That's what you better do. Be Bobby Green. Those kids that came in that night from Strikeforce were so hungry. They were hungry, man. That's what I want, I want guys who are hungry."

While White isn't apologizing for the roster cuts, he was apologetic for one aspect of the news: The fact several fighters found out they were no longer with the UFC through Twitter.

"That was 100 percent my fault, I take full responsibility for it and I apologize for it," White said. "Because first of all, Vladimir Matyushenko, I've known him since we bought this company, I love that guy, I respect him very much as a fighter and have a great relationship with him. It's bothered me for the last two days that I did that to these kids, to find out on Twitter, or through somebody else that you were cut, instead of getting the phone call first. I really do apologize to all the guys that happened to."
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:16 PM
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I won't lie, I didn't read your entire post. Do these fighters really feel that they have been wrongly treated?

Here's my 2 cents. These fighters are contractors, they sign a contract to fight x number of fights knowing that this contract can be terminated beforehand by the employer. Hence, they know what they are getting into before signing.

Also, if a fighter or any employee is not contributing to the generation of revenue, why should they continue to have a job? Dana said today that they have over 450 fighters on the roster and that is 100 too many. This is a business and fighters know going in that they may not be with the UFC forever or at all.

I respect and appreciate your passion for the sport and how your culture is, but I just don't see how anyone can think these fighters that were cut were "wronged".
1) I imagine so. Reason being they are signed up to fight a number of fights knowing that three losses in a row equates to being cut. What they will not be expecting is to get cut for no good reason. Because the UFC have failed to properly handle their rota, is not a good excuse....when even someone like me could have designed no less then THREE ways the UFC could have avoided this

1) Start refusing to employ ANYONE but the Finalists of The Ultimate Fighter...that is the WHOLE POINT of the Show...it is NOT a free pass into the organisation

2) Lengthen their cards for this year to put all Strikeforce Employees through a sudden death mathc in order to qualify for continued employment in the UFC

3) ONLY employ the Strikeforce Champions and the imediate contenders into the UFC.

What noone in their right bloody mind would do, is simply grant every bloody fighter and his dog immediate rights to be in the UFC PLUS everyone ever associated with TUF...and then sacked people who got to the UFC ON MERIT ALONE and who do NOT have three losses in a row.


Any guy out there. Let me tell you what you better do—you better fight your f—king ass off and make it good and win," White said emphatically. "That's the only way people want to see you."

How the Hell does Dana know WHAT WE WANT TO SEE? If he Cared what the Public thought, firstly it wouldnt be a private company, it would be a sharehold, secondly, rather then dismiss people to his bloody competitors...he would be listening and consulting with fans...those fans who bother to be passionate and post online...and the number is dwindling across the entire internet due to saturation of the market which is something else the UFC havent got to grips with after TWO YEARS now...is that they are angry at Dana...They are being VERY rude about him...and that wont be ultimately good for business...mark my words...The domination of the UFC in the MMA market is coming to an end....I think by 2015 Bellator will have surpassed the UFC...and most of it, simply because they are using prime UFC stock that the UFC have discarded because they are f'ing dumbasses....and because their products are over priced, watered down, and fast becoming not worth their money...the old UFC Greats are retired...and the Hardcore fans are struggling to pick up the flash in the pans.

He needs to gain control....I worry that his health issues are frankly clouding his judgement...because this who strikeforce thing has been handled poorly even for White


One of the comments I came across says simply "I wish the UFC would Cut Dana White"
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:47 PM
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1) Start refusing to employ ANYONE but the Finalists of The Ultimate Fighter...that is the WHOLE POINT of the Show...it is NOT a free pass into the organisation
I agree for the most part, but I do think there are exceptions. Let's be realistic, things can happen on that show that can prevent someone from winning ie. Matt Hammil getting hurt. I am not saying he would have beat Bisping in the finals, but with your logic he would not make it in the UFC.

The show is about finding new talent, only the winner is given a guaranteed contract.

Quote:
2) Lengthen their cards for this year to put all Strikeforce Employees through a sudden death mathc in order to qualify for continued employment in the UFC
Have you been to a UFC event? Currently they take about 5-6 hours to complete and most people don't even show up until the main card is about to start. To have more fights on the card would not be a good idea, IMO.

Quote:
3) ONLY employ the Strikeforce Champions and the imediate contenders into the UFC.
How many people are considered immediate contenders? Let's take the MW division, you have Rockhold as champ, Tim Kennedy, Jacare, Lorenz Larkin, and Robbie Lawler as the top from Strikeforce. So out of the "contenders", who gets in?

I worked for a company that believed that everyone should be continuously improving. They wanted everyone to improve every year. If you were content in your job and what you did, you were gone. This, to me, is the same as Dana stating to fighters to be exciting and give fans a reason to want to watch you fight.

Do you really think Dana doesn't listen to the fans? He is on the Underground quite a bit interacting and listening to the fans. He tries to make the fights that the fans want. I have mentioned this before, but I'll tell the story again. Right after UFC 87: GSP/Fitch, I got an email from the UFC (not sure what I had signed up for, but anyway). The email had me take a survey ranking the HW fighters in the UFC. It asked questions about who is the most exciting, who should fight for the title next, etc. I honestly believe that this survey led to Brock getting his shot at Couture. So I do believe that they listen.

To think that Dana is going to bury the UFC and Bellator is going to reign is completely ridiculous. Bellator has the financial backing to do it, but in fighter and fans eyes they know who is king. IMO, the UFC has not let someone go where you can look at and say that they blew it. So is someone like Jon Fitch going to be the savior of MMA? Or maybe Ben Saunders?

Getting cut from the UFC is not a death sentence, some of these guys will be back at some point.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:25 PM
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1) The show is about finding new talent, only the winner is given a guaranteed contract.



2) Have you been to a UFC event? Currently they take about 5-6 hours to complete and most people don't even show up until the main card is about to start. To have more fights on the card would not be a good idea, IMO.



3) How many people are considered immediate contenders? Let's take the MW division, you have Rockhold as champ, Tim Kennedy, Jacare, Lorenz Larkin, and Robbie Lawler as the top from Strikeforce. So out of the "contenders", who gets in?

4) I worked for a company that believed that everyone should be continuously improving. They wanted everyone to improve every year. If you were content in your job and what you did, you were gone. This, to me, is the same as Dana stating to fighters to be exciting and give fans a reason to want to watch you fight.

5) Do you really think Dana doesn't listen to the fans? He is on the Underground quite a bit interacting and listening to the fans. He tries to make the fights that the fans want. I have mentioned this before, but I'll tell the story again. Right after UFC 87: GSP/Fitch, I got an email from the UFC (not sure what I had signed up for, but anyway). The email had me take a survey ranking the HW fighters in the UFC. It asked questions about who is the most exciting, who should fight for the title next, etc. I honestly believe that this survey led to Brock getting his shot at Couture. So I do believe that they listen.

6) To think that Dana is going to bury the UFC and Bellator is going to reign is completely ridiculous. Bellator has the financial backing to do it, but in fighter and fans eyes they know who is king. IMO, the UFC has not let someone go where you can look at and say that they blew it. So is someone like Jon Fitch going to be the savior of MMA? Or maybe Ben Saunders?

Getting cut from the UFC is not a death sentence, some of these guys will be back at some point.
1) The point is...they dont need half the TUFers...and they DONT NEED THE WOMEN EITHER.

2) I have been to THREE UFC events...UFC 70, UFC 85 and UFC 120 I Know they take Hours to complete...but there are ways the UFC can speed that process up....The other way to do it...is create a sudden death card all of its own...for the Strikeforce contracts.

The UFC dont care about who shows up...thats a minute proportion of the audience...they only care that the tickets are bought...and they are...the people can turn up when they like, or not at all. Incidently...if they dropped their prices, they would get more custom...its too expensive in the UK...MUCH too expensive.

3) Thats at the UFCs descretion to decide

4) That assumes Dana White actually knows what Fans want...How does he know that? I want to see the people I like, Know and care about fighting...I want them to strike the right ballence between being exciting, and being sensible, between standing and trading, and excellent ground work. IF Dana White cuts the people I like...I will follow those people to other organizations...because I dont actually care about the UFC, nor do I care for its Executive...they have given me no reason to care for them, no proof they care about anything but their own agenda, and no understanding of any fighters or fans who arent US Citzens.

5) I think he listens less and less, I think they do surveys and then twist the results to give them what they want. He doesnt want Fans to call his organisation to account, he wants to rule as a dictator. He deliberately sets some fighters up with impossible matches to get as much chance of getting the results he wants. He saves others who should be gone. He has favourites, He pushes others at the expense of those who work really hard. He gives token gestures to fans. If he took things seriously, he would have a team that is constantly patrolling the biggest MMA websites, feeding back ideas, and monitoring public opinion. The ejit hired someone from the Sun newspaper to be on the board to decide the official UFC P4P rankings...and COMPLETELY Excluded Sherdog He did it, because he doesnt like Sherdog...because he cant separate his emotions from his common sence.

...and the UFC do not acknowledge letters, nor other means of contact 9 out of 10 times...I had more luck getting through to politicians, then the UFC Brass...that tells you something...You and I...we are nothing to them...they just want your money, and the ability to do whatever the hell they please.

6) Firstly...it would be useful if you told me how long you've been interested in MMA, and been online about the subject. For those of us who have been online for a while, we have seen the effect the UFC expanding into different countries and adding more cards has had...and believe me...its had a negative impact...especially in non American areas...its all but distroyed the MMA Online Communities...Not just this Forum...but litterally loads...the UFC cant even garner a proper active forum on their own website....one off post reactions to news reports are probably post for post, more active then the largest MMA forums...people are ready for something new.

Now...Dana White hasnt yet struck a name that ammounts to much, he will be disliked in the UK for his actions...which matter if he ever wants to expand and be mainstream here...and some of the guys he cut on the british scene still have the potential to be future champions callibre fighters...he will look dumbass if they do that in another organisation and then refuse to come back...But you should see that there was what I would consider a real bitterness when he threatened Urijah Faber for this next weeks fight...if he really does have to cut hundreds...he WILL start to piss people off if those fighters are well loved and well known...if he goes after Frankie Edgar, Urijah Faber...Whilst taking care of Leonard Garcia, Mac Danzig...then all Bellator will have to do is grow quietly...and people will shift...When I first joined the MMA community, the hardcore fans were of the firm belief that Pride FC was the real top league, and NOT the UFC...not only can it happen again...I now believe it will.
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