At Least 26 Dead in Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Also, we all know that Christ will return as a monarch. However, He is the only One who deserves that title. Just because we recognize that fact doesn't mean we need to bow the knee to just any human schlubb who claims to be anointed by GOD. Sure GOD anointed human kings in the Old Testament, but we need to remember that their demand for a king was considered a rejection of GOD.

I think thats ultimately because the Human King can not fully reflect Christ....and how damaged is the world because Human Kings have acted in ways which are contrary to their sacred annointing?

Would we even be having this discussion, if King George had done his duty concerning the collonies?

But there is evidences in the Scriptures for this method of politics being carried out correctly...and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence of that being the case for a Constitution....Certainly not a Constitution that stands APART from the Governing body...and certainly not one that claims to be absolute...EXCEPT FOR...The Old Testament Law

[Tyburn]

From the Mouth of a Monarchy Two Millenia in age...and a decendant of Mad King George....comes something which shows what Monarchy is all about

""This is the time of year when we remember, that GOD sent his Only Son, to Serve, not to be Served. He Restored Love and Service to the Centre of our Lives in the person of Jesus Christ. It is my prayer this Christmas day, that his Example and Teaching may continue to bring people together, to give the best of themselves, in the service of others.""

If you want to see her full speech its in the political section.

Queen Elizabeth believes that she was born, annointed by GOD, to Serve the Nation. You may have experienced a heratage lashed with the markings of the worst a monarchy can symbolize...I hope this shows you the best of Monarchy.

Try to understand that this is the Monarch who saw her Empire distroyed, Saw her Status reduced to figurehead, and yet despite all that she could well be the best Monarch that has ever rulled over us.

I think at this stage I will bow out of this thread. I have shown you clearly, where our Cultures dissagree, and given you my theological understandings that have led me to that place. Neither of us will change our position, because we are both indoctrinated into our respective cultures. To continue will just be to spiral into ever deepening irrelevence.

But I just wanted you to know that Monarchs can be good as well as bad.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I dont believe in GOD-Given Rights.

Then you should cancel any plans you have to move to America, this is not the country for you.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I believe in Rights given by Laws of the Land...but I do not pretend they are an absolute...Nor that they are GODS LAW.

So, the right to life is something granted by a human-run government? If a government decides you have no right to live would you willingly allow them to terminate your life? If you say "no" then you have just contradicted your own argument.

What about property rights? Is that something granted by a government? Can the government come into your house and take all of your possessions and drained your bank account? Would you willingly go along with that? If you believe that your government is the source of your property rights, then you would have to. Otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I Believe the "Right" to bear arms, is a Right only under constitutional law, an ammendment, by the will of a Federal Government in the 1780s

Then you are pretty ignorant of your own nation's history.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I see that the Bible only really gives precedence for a Government capable of creating Law as stemming from a Monarch, or an Emporar...because they are supposed to be the reflection of Christ (even if they fail as sinners)

Then you are pretty ignorant of the Bible as well.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I note that the Federal Government of the 1780s is not only based on a contrary system, but actually denies the above entirely, is several key ways.

It's only a contrary system based on your limited understanding.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

*They deliberatley use Monarchy as the basis for "The Tyrant"
*They claim all men are born equal, and thus refute Ordination, or Annointing, for that would imply the Monarchic Branch as in some way superior
*The set an absolute basis for eternal rule, which would deny any Monarch the ability to change rules, add rules, subtract rules, or modify rules

The Founding Fathers simply acknowledged that Jesus Christ was our one true King. The line of Biblical kings was passed on to Jesus thousands of years ago. Since He is still alive, then no human being can legitimately claim to be a "GOD-anointed" monarch. That job is not vacant and it never will be again. In this day and age, any human trying to claim that they have been anointed by GOD to be a monarch is simply a liar and a fraud.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

In order that the above be underwritten by something more powerful then a Government, they appeal to a higher source, thus freeing themselves from the responsibility of having made the Rules...for they say that these are not their laws...but the GOD-Given Rules...therefore they also, presumably, believe this law not only suitable to themselves...but suitable for the entireity of man.

I may find those Rules Just, I may even like some of them. I may believe they are founded on Christian principles..but I will NOT pretend that their source is anything other then a Government of men.

Therefore...when the Citizens start also appealing to GOD...I find there presumption as false, as the presumption of the people who created it. That I can not deny...or else the Constitution of the Federal Republic of the United States of America...being GOD-Given...is on a par with The Old Testament Law...since I know that to be GOD-Given.

In that Law their are Rights...but those rights are unobtainable...and therefore account to the same as not being in existance. Therefore if I believe the US Constitution and its Bill of Rights to be legitmately of GOD, and filled with obtainable Rights...I can not believe them both.

You're argument makes absolutely no logical sense. Are you saying that GOD-given right, by their very definition, must be unobtainable? That's nonsense.

However, I can understand your inability to understand these concepts, since you've known nothing but a monarchy your entire life. It's not your fault, you just haven't learned to think outside of your little box yet.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I choose to believe the Old Testament.

How can you? Based on your comments, you have obviously never really read it. The Pentateuch (aka The Torah) (aka Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)(aka Mosaic Law), did NOTHING to set up a human monarchy. It actually sets up a theocracy, with GOD as the head of the government. It was only after Israel rejected GOD's form of government that He allowed them to have a monarch.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

What is Illogical about that?

Pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Queen Elizabeth believes that she was born, annointed by GOD, to Serve the Nation.

Well, someone lied to her, because that's not possible. The line of David was terminated after Christ, thus NOBODY living today can make that claim. So, Queen Elizabeth is a nothing more than a pretender to the throne.

[huan]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Laws of Nature...and things which are "Self evident" are opinions which varry from person to person, from philosopher to philosopher. They are "opinions" and Opinions are not Facts.

in actuality they are truths, not opinions. logic dictates that much.

and since the Bible talks about God's law being written on all of our hearts, I'm not sure why you would contest this. we feel bad when we lie or steal as a result of it. the fact that we have done wrong therefore is self-evident; no law of man can change that. no government of man can draft laws which grants or represses the rights of human beings, which are God given.

[Tyburn]

FAO PTM:

I Remember telling you how when GOD had protected Saint Paul's Cathedral from Two waves of German Bombers, the third wave never turned up in the skies above London due to bad weather over the Channel.

I just wanted to tell you that it isnt the first time GOD has used Weather in the Channel to stop an Enemy of England from Triumph when for all intense and purposes they should advance.

The Other Occurance was 23rd July 1588. In Short, the King of Spain decided to avenge the execution of His Wife, Queen Mary of Scotland, whose claim to the English Throne was that she was Roman Catholic, whilst the reigning Monarch Queen Elizabeth I was Anglican.

Through excellent military strategy, which involved forcing the spanish to break the formation of their armada by sailing kamakazi warships on fire into their midst, and excellently bad weather, which the Spanish Ships couldnt cope with, but the English Ships could, the Armada never even made landfall in England...let alone attempt a full scale land invasion.

The Spanish have never faced such a tremendous defeat at sea, even to this day...and within a decade their Monarch had died in disgrace...and thats when their financial issues concerning bankruptcy began (they are STILL Bankrupt over half a Millenia later )

They should have won with ease. I Believe that GOD himself protected our Nation at that time, just like he did in the 1940s.

Queen Elizabeth I said: My loving people, we have been persuaded by some that are careful of our safety, to take heed how we commit ourselves to armed multitudes for fear of treachery; but, I do assure you, I do not desire to live to distrust my faithful and loving people. Let tyrants fear, I have always so behaved myself, that under God I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and goodwill of my subjects; and, therefore, I am come amongst you as you see at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of battle, to live or die amongst you all – to lay down for my God, and for my kingdoms, and for my people, my honour and my blood even in the dust. I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king – and of a King of England too, and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realm; to which, rather than any dishonour should grow by me, I myself will take up arms – I myself will be your general, judge, and rewarder of every one of your virtues in the field. I know already, for your forwardness, you have deserved rewards and crowns, and, we do assure you, on the word of a prince, they shall be duly paid you. In the mean time, my lieutenant general shall be in my stead, than whom never prince commanded a more noble or worthy subject; not doubting but by your obedience to my general, by your concord in the camp, and your valour in the field, we shall shortly have a famous victory over those enemies of my God, of my kingdom, and of my people


I wont bother addressing Nathan since he seems incapable of reading my replies that have already covered his points. As for Huan....Matters of Conscience differ from people to people....YOU might feel bad when you steal or lie...but some people have no problem with rape and murder...therefore its NOT a logical following, that because a majority aggree it becomes a right from GOD

I have no problem with Rights under any Law. My Problem isnt that Guns are protected by US Law...that I dont despute, and never have. My issue is with where Americans believe their law comes from. Many Diss nations like mine for having laws stemming from potentially Tyranical Governments, or monarchies....but somehow a constitution written BY A GOVERNMENT which was their own...well thats exempt because its Rights are from GOD.

You think the British are pompous? At least you dont here us pretending our Rights are Divine...Not many Brits would even say that the Right of Kingship is Devine...I would say it has a basis in scripture...but its not a GOD given Right to have a Monarch...because GOD only gave the Old Testament Law.

Outside of the Old Testament Law, all Laws are relative to their Authority, and as different laws differ under different authorities, no laws can be absolute...therefore, logic dictates that as Rights spring from the Law, so the same applies.

Heaven help us if we took everything the Europeans claims are Human Rights as GOD Given...Would the United States of America, halt the extradition of a Terrorist, because it is a GOD given right for someone to have a family...and he's written down his pooch as his sole dependant? I mean FFS!! THATS what happens when you start down the Human Rights road.

I accept that not all Laws are Just...I personally dont think its Just to hang people just because they are homosexual...but in some countries, by following the law, that is exactly what they do. Its not rocket science what I would do if that rule ever came to England....obviously, I'd run and hide, or leave the country, and from afar I would lobby for change...but I certainly wouldnt deny that the authority of those particular lands have the jurisdiction to make those rules....In England you see in our past what happens when people dont like a law thats made...they try to do something to change the law. If you have a problem with a Monarch...you dont declair that GOD hates all Monarchs...No...You assassinate the Monarch and replace him with one that you like or you aid the attempts of a perfered candidate to overthrow the Government you dont like...thats what Queen Mary was trying to do when she got executed for High Treason...and thats the risk you run...and ironically, for all that some of the loud mouthed americans on this forum go on...the one thing that George Washington is said to have understood completely, is the gravity of what he was doing. He knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was committing High Treason, and he knew very well what would happen if he was unsuccessful in his bid for Freedom.

The total Irony is that George Washington actually had deeply held respect for the Monarchy, for its position, for its power...AND for what it was worth...which is why he was challenging in the first place. He felt mis treated by the institution that should have been supporting him, and he felt the credibility divide was too much for reconcilliation. But what he never advocated was any kind of abolition.

He didnt want to free England from Tyrany...Just the collonial outposts. The Venom with which one of you has spoken against a Reigning Monarch who has given nothing but the most exemplory of service to her subjects, is sickening...and would be sickening to any 1700 American or English. Before Elizabeth is spoken against, perhaps one should look at the American Government....A Federal Government, that has enslaved fifty soverign American States, with a bogus Supreme Court only capable of rulling in favour of its Federal Financial Supply line, a Bi-Partisan Government that play silly beggers whilst their people are stuck in the midst of a recession...and a President, who doesnt even get ellected on the basis of a simple democratic popular vote.

If You ask me...even with your blasted firearms...your more in bondage then I...you just dont know it.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Then you should cancel any plans you have to move to America, this is not the country for you.

Probably less then half of all americans even believe in the Christian GOD, therefore, logically they cant believe in GOD given anything. I cancelled my plans to move to the State in 2009, if you were paying more attention you would know why. Ironically, I dont feel they have adequet Employment Rights...Something evidently NOT GOD Given according to America

So, the right to life is something granted by a human-run government? If a government decides you have no right to live would you willingly allow them to terminate your life? If you say "no" then you have just contradicted your own argument.

I Would recognise they had the Authority to make the rulling. Willingness has nothing to do with it. I would run, hide, and leave the country. I didnt say that I loved all laws...just that Governments have the authority to make them. In some countries, people like me ARE terminated.

What about property rights? Is that something granted by a government? Can the government come into your house and take all of your possessions and drained your bank account? Would you willingly go along with that? If you believe that your government is the source of your property rights, then you would have to. Otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

All Property is owned by the Crown, Via the Councils. I might own the physical structures on the Land, but they own the land. Even with full ownership, we cant change our structures without planning permission from the Crown, except in various loop holes to do with size and classification of structures. I never said Governments had control of banking...Banks have control of banking...and thanks to YOUR banks...we have seen people who have lost pensions and the likes...does that make the people of Wall street Tyrants? Recognition of Authority doesnt mean you have to go along with it...so why you keep using "willingly" I dont know. After all...I know who you are on this Forum, but I still feel fine with telling you when I think your wrong. I recognise your authority, but I'm hardly "willing" to be silent as you would like on matters such as these

Then you are pretty ignorant of your own nation's history.

Really? Look on the Statute books...its called Common law...something you wouldnt understand since you've never lived under it. But its the right to repeal laws. Just because one King granted us a Law...doesnt mean later Kings did the same. Sorry its not the same with your Presidents.

Then you are pretty ignorant of the Bible as well.

I'm not the one who believes in Calvinism and a Loveless GOD.

It's only a contrary system based on your limited understanding.

Of Course...I was forgetting the American knows best I have the ability to see things from others perspectives...which is why I could do this whole debate by myself...coz I can factually fight both sides of most of the debates I enter, especially on here. Thats something you never could do. You couldnt write my side of this argument...but I could write a piece giving the arguments for GOD given Rights AND Gun control if I wanted to. Infact...I could do that better then you've done here in this thread. I'm not as dumbass as you think.

The Founding Fathers simply acknowledged that Jesus Christ was our one true King. The line of Biblical kings was passed on to Jesus thousands of years ago. Since He is still alive, then no human being can legitimately claim to be a "GOD-anointed" monarch. That job is not vacant and it never will be again. In this day and age, any human trying to claim that they have been anointed by GOD to be a monarch is simply a liar and a fraud.

Now thats the first proper counter you've made in the whole thread. I almost dont want to ruin it by answering...since its so beautifully composed. Christ is also the High Priest...so I suppose in your eyes, anyone that has a calling to the priesthood is a liar and fraud also...as no doubt that vacancy is filled also.

I wont confuse things further by saying the Jesus Christ was King BEFORE King David, before Any Monarch....he has always been King because he is timeless...so are THEY Frauds and Liars also? and how about poor Zadok the Priest who it is inscribed in the Bible "Anointed" Solomon King? Tricked was he?

You're argument makes absolutely no logical sense. Are you saying that GOD-given right, by their very definition, must be unobtainable? That's nonsense.

CORRECT! I am saying the only GOD Given rights are from the Old Testament Law and that all of the Old Testament Law is unobtainable!

However, I can understand your inability to understand these concepts, since you've known nothing but a monarchy your entire life. It's not your fault, you just haven't learned to think outside of your little box yet.

Touche...coz living under Barack Obama must be...such fun

How can you? Based on your comments, you have obviously never really read it. The Pentateuch (aka The Torah) (aka Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)(aka Mosaic Law), did NOTHING to set up a human monarchy. It actually sets up a theocracy, with GOD as the head of the government. It was only after Israel rejected GOD's form of government that He allowed them to have a monarch.

I Didnt say the Law set up Monarchy...I said in Old Testament times (I'll just quote you here) "He allowed them to have a Monarch" That was a direct permission...its not exactly a Right given to Israel...but as damn close as its possible to have one on a State level without the Old Testament Law

Pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far.

You may dissagree...but you shouldnt pretend you dont understand what I mean.

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

I wont bother addressing Nathan since he seems incapable of reading my replies that have already covered his points.

Liar, liar
pants on fire

[Neezar]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

The total Irony is that George Washington actually had deeply held respect for the Monarchy, for its position, for its power..

-Then why didn't he want that for us?

AND for what it was worth...which is why he was challenging in the first place. He felt mis treated by the institution that should have been supporting him, and he felt the credibility divide was too much for reconcilliation. But what he never advocated was any kind of abolition.

What's your point? Is anyone here advocating any kind of abolition for your monarchy?


He didnt want to free England from Tyrany...Just the collonial outposts. The Venom with which one of you has spoken against a Reigning Monarch who has given nothing but the most exemplory of service to her subjects, is sickening...and would be sickening to any 1700 American or English.

You should read of some of the venom spewed by our leaders (in public forums) at the time. No one here has come close to matching the hatred towards parliment and the king that was felt by those men.

I do applaud your mastery at diversion.

[VCURamFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZkHcbqG8yk