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  #191  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:39 AM
rearnakedchoke rearnakedchoke is offline
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My prayers are with the families during the christmas season ... Anytime is going to be tough for this ... But parents are probably going to hurt more at this time of the year .... Very sad
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  #192  
Old 12-25-2012, 06:22 AM
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My prayers are with the families during the christmas season ... Anytime is going to be tough for this ... But parents are probably going to hurt more at this time of the year .... Very sad
Amen
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  #193  
Old 12-25-2012, 07:49 AM
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no authority to take away rights that GOD has granted. .
No where, outside of a man made constitution does it say the right to bear arms is a GOD given right in the first place. Thats the whole point from a non-US perspective.

We dont believe GOD Granted you that as a Right...we believe the Federal Government of the US Circa 1780s Granted you that right.

Its a bit like us trying to claim our Government is violating the Magna Carte or something...those arent GOD Given Rights...just rights the barons felt they deserved vs the Monarchy.
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  #194  
Old 12-25-2012, 07:50 AM
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Try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUFQoNW7NPs
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  #195  
Old 12-25-2012, 02:28 PM
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No where, outside of a man made constitution does it say the right to bear arms is a GOD given right in the first place. Thats the whole point from a non-US perspective.

We dont believe GOD Granted you that as a Right...we believe the Federal Government of the US Circa 1780s Granted you that right.

Its a bit like us trying to claim our Government is violating the Magna Carte or something...those arent GOD Given Rights...just rights the barons felt they deserved vs the Monarchy.
People have the GOD-given right to protect their family and their property from harm. In order to do that in this world, you need to be armed.

Did you not read the part where I stated that the right to own firearms for protection was granted by the King of England as far back as 1689?

So, you can believe whatever you want about the source of our right to own firearms, but all you are doing is revealing yourself to be ignorant of your own nation's history.
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  #196  
Old 12-25-2012, 05:08 PM
huan huan is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
No where, outside of a man made constitution does it say the right to bear arms is a GOD given right in the first place. Thats the whole point from a non-US perspective.

We dont believe GOD Granted you that as a Right...we believe the Federal Government of the US Circa 1780s Granted you that right.

Its a bit like us trying to claim our Government is violating the Magna Carte or something...those arent GOD Given Rights...just rights the barons felt they deserved vs the Monarchy.
it doesn't matter what you believe, you do not understand U.S. government and the philosophy behind its founding if you think our government is the body granting ANY rights. founding documents are merely a reflection that those rights have always existed and are laws of nature, which are self-evident. government's role is intended to be nothing more than protection of the citizen and their individual rights, which obviously includes protection from governing bodies.

it makes me kind of sad really, that you think rights are granted from government. but I guess that's why when your government came knocking for guns no one put up any kind of a meaningful resistance.
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  #197  
Old 12-25-2012, 08:13 PM
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People have the GOD-given right to protect their family and their property from harm. In order to do that in this world, you need to be armed.

Did you not read the part where I stated that the right to own firearms for protection was granted by the King of England as far back as 1689?

So, you can believe whatever you want about the source of our right to own firearms, but all you are doing is revealing yourself to be ignorant of your own nation's history.
The King of England is not a God, anymore then your founding Fathers are Gods...both may grant you rights UNDER THE LAW...but that doesnt mean the Law They give you...or the Rights in those laws are from GOD...anymore then any politicians opinions on what should and shouldnt be rights

GOD never says in plain English that you have a right to protect your family. You can INFER it, by saying that the Mans role is to lead the family and protect it, and therefore you need a firearm to be able to perform that function...but that is YOUR inference...your OPINION...its not a black and white solid "Right" Besides...giving Job a gun to protect his family wouldnt have made him any more successful would it now? You have one verse asking missionaries to by swords...and yet every time they draw those Swords, Christ tells them to quit it...and if you check your History...you find they were all Martyred...which wasnt an accident.

GOD makes no Rights...thats why he makes Promises for things that are important, but that we are not afforded by Rights. Salvation, for example. That is an ESSENTIAL BIBLICAL TRUTH...particularly, for someone, like you, who did a U-Tern on Calvinism...My Goodness...if we all had "Rights" then we wouldnt need to be "Ellected" because our Sin wouldnt stop us...after all, the Law would have given us Rights, and we would be Righteous.

We're Not.

You have NO GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS...you dont even have the right to your own life. WTF do you think St Paul means when he talks about being a "Slave for Christ" St Paul was a Roman Citizen...do you know what Roman Slaves were? You were perchased, at no small cost. Something a lot of Evangelical Christians forget about. Salvation ISNT FREE...its only Free for you. The Debt was still paid, the Law was still settled. Make no mistake. You were bought, by Christs passion. You belong to Him. You own Nothing, You have No Rights...everything you get is a Blessed Gift.

We are all tremendously lucky that he Loves us at all. That is His Free Will.

Maybe you'd understand, if you understood what a Monarchy is...and that Christs Rule will be as a KING at worst, Emporar at best...We dont know exactly what form his Government will take. You could...if you were very staunch, say that just as a Roman Emporar rulled with a Senate...so Christ will indulge the Christians in a little leadership ahead of governing the angelic host, as St Paul insists happens at some point. My Guess is that he wont. He will be Rex Celestis, Soverign Ruller of Earth and Heaven....if you dare step into his light without Christ...you will face the same peril as those who came into contact with the Ark of the Covernant, without being specifically instructed to. Thats why the Temple had a curtain....it wasnt to signify simply Holiness...but also for straight forward protection of the Sinner against a perfect GOD....being that the very spot of communion prior to Christ, between Man and GOD was the physical space above the Ark...He litterally sat upon a throne incasing his Law. Rather Spectacular. Something that Mortal eyes would not be able to behold without being first sanctified.
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  #198  
Old 12-25-2012, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by huan View Post
it doesn't matter what you believe, you do not understand U.S. government and the philosophy behind its founding if you think our government is the body granting ANY rights. founding documents are merely a reflection that those rights have always existed and are laws of nature, which are self-evident. government's role is intended to be nothing more than protection of the citizen and their individual rights, which obviously includes protection from governing bodies.

it makes me kind of sad really, that you think rights are granted from government. but I guess that's why when your government came knocking for guns no one put up any kind of a meaningful resistance.
Laws of Nature...and things which are "Self evident" are opinions which varry from person to person, from philosopher to philosopher. They are "opinions" and Opinions are not Facts.

Therefore you ask...in whose opinion are the "founding documents (are) merely a reflection that those rights have always existed and are laws of nature, which are self-evident." Logically speaking, that opinion lies with the people who wrote the constitution. That was a Federal Government of the 1780s.

In Political Philosophy, Rights come from Law, Law comes from Governments, Governments come from Kings, Kings are ordained by GOD to Rule. Therefore Rights come froma Human Being, who GOD has put in place. This is a fallen world, those are fallen people...therefore their Laws are not perfect, Their rights might be Just...or injust.

Without Order their is but chaos. Without Law, there are no Rights.

If you want to apply that to GOD, then look at his Law...if you can satisfy his Law, you may have the Rights that go with it....but good luck with that...his benchmark is permanent perfection and Holiness.
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  #199  
Old 12-25-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
The King of England is not a God, anymore then your founding Fathers are Gods...both may grant you rights UNDER THE LAW...but that doesnt mean the Law They give you...or the Rights in those laws are from GOD...anymore then any politicians opinions on what should and shouldnt be rights
Are you intentionally misunderstanding this? It sure seems that way. You seem to be interpreting every single comment I make to mean exactly the opposite of what I intend it to mean. Are you trying to be irrational?

And what does the Calvinism thing have to do with anything? Can a person's views and understanding of GOD never grow or change over time? Besides I don't ever recall speaking out against Calvinism in the past. If you can present some posts of mine to that effect then I'd read them and consider your point.

Also, we all know that Christ will return as a monarch. However, He is the only One who deserves that title. Just because we recognize that fact doesn't mean we need to bow the knee to just any human schlubb who claims to be anointed by GOD. Sure GOD anointed human kings in the Old Testament, but we need to remember that their demand for a king was considered a rejection of GOD.
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  #200  
Old 12-25-2012, 09:16 PM
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Are you intentionally misunderstanding this? It sure seems that way. You seem to be interpreting every single comment I make to mean exactly the opposite of what I intend it to mean. Are you trying to be irrational?
I dont believe in GOD-Given Rights.

I believe in Rights given by Laws of the Land...but I do not pretend they are an absolute...Nor that they are GODS LAW.

I Believe the "Right" to bear arms, is a Right only under constitutional law, an ammendment, by the will of a Federal Government in the 1780s

I see that the Bible only really gives precedence for a Government capable of creating Law as stemming from a Monarch, or an Emporar...because they are supposed to be the reflection of Christ (even if they fail as sinners)

I note that the Federal Government of the 1780s is not only based on a contrary system, but actually denies the above entirely, is several key ways.

*They deliberatley use Monarchy as the basis for "The Tyrant"
*They claim all men are born equal, and thus refute Ordination, or Annointing, for that would imply the Monarchic Branch as in some way superior
*The set an absolute basis for eternal rule, which would deny any Monarch the ability to change rules, add rules, subtract rules, or modify rules

In order that the above be underwritten by something more powerful then a Government, they appeal to a higher source, thus freeing themselves from the responsibility of having made the Rules...for they say that these are not their laws...but the GOD-Given Rules...therefore they also, presumably, believe this law not only suitable to themselves...but suitable for the entireity of man.

I may find those Rules Just, I may even like some of them. I may believe they are founded on Christian principles..but I will NOT pretend that their source is anything other then a Government of men.

Therefore...when the Citizens start also appealing to GOD...I find there presumption as false, as the presumption of the people who created it. That I can not deny...or else the Constitution of the Federal Republic of the United States of America...being GOD-Given...is on a par with The Old Testament Law...since I know that to be GOD-Given.

In that Law their are Rights...but those rights are unobtainable...and therefore account to the same as not being in existance. Therefore if I believe the US Constitution and its Bill of Rights to be legitmately of GOD, and filled with obtainable Rights...I can not believe them both.

I choose to believe the Old Testament.

What is Illogical about that?
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