At Least 26 Dead in Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

[huan]

Originally Posted by BradW

law enforcement are paid to protect the public and in doing their duty they routinely
have to deal with gun toting criminals and need access to something other then a hunting rifle
to protect themselves from harm.

private citizens on the other hand hardly ever encounter criminals,most of the time a persons life is only endanger when a mentally disturbed person
flips out and trys to kill everyone in sight...or maybe its someone thats just had enough of their spouse or family or coworkers,but no matter what the reason if these
people didnt have access to hand guns and assault rifles the death toll would surly be a lot lower.
a person can be killed by any gun but to kill a group of people it is much easier
with a semiautomatic or fully automatic hand gun or rifle then it is with a hunting rifle.

It is beyond obvious that you have little to no experience with firearms, as these types of opinions tend to go hand in hand with being uninformed. and your made up statistics about cops encountering more criminals than citizens is also laughable. tell that to my wife who walked in on someone robbing our home yesterday. it happens, and a heck of a lot more than you think.

[NateR]

Originally Posted by BradW

law enforcement are paid to protect the public and in doing their duty they routinely
have to deal with gun toting criminals and need access to something other then a hunting rifle
to protect themselves from harm.

Except for the fact that law enforcement officers frequently put their own safety ahead of the citizens they are supposed to serve and protect.

As the saying goes, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

But that doesn't mean the police will actually do anything when they get there because police are under no legal obligation to prevent crime or prevent harm to regular citizens. Anytime victims of crime have tried to sue the police for dereliction of duty in preventing violent crimes, some of which have lead to deaths, the victims have lost as the courts usually side with the police.

Look up Warren vs. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (DC 1981), in which police officers allowed three college girls to be raped and brutalized for over 14 hours after the girls had called 911 for help. The police arrived on the scene, knocked on the door and when the rapists didn't answer the door, because they were too busy raping the girls, the police left. When the girls tried to sue the police force, the courts ruled on the side of the police. The rapists were only armed with one knife. A single handgun in the possession of one of the girls could have prevented the entire crime. It's hard to imagine a gun making the situation much worse.

Then look up Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, 545 US 748 (2005). A couple had gone through a rough divorce and the husband was given a restraining order stating that he was not allowed within 100 feet of his wife or his 3 daughters, under penalty of law. The police were ordered to enforce the restraining order by any means that they saw fit, including arresting the husband if he violated it. Unfortunately, the husband did violate his restraining order and kidnapped his daughters. The wife called the police but they refused to do anything about it for several hours and kept telling her to call back later. She finally went to the police station at 12:50 AM and one of the officers took her report, then went to get something to eat. The husband did eventually show up at the police station at around 3:20 AM.... shooting. He was gunned down by the police, but it was too late. He had already killed all three of his daughters.

When the mother tried suing the police officers for not taking action sooner and not enforcing the restraining order, the courts sided with the police.

American citizens have no Constitutional right to protection from the police. We do have a Constitutional right to carry weapons to protect ourselves, however.

So, if someone thinks they don't need a gun because the police will protect them, then they might be in for an extremely rude awakening at some point in the future.

[flo]

Originally Posted by huan

It is beyond obvious that you have little to no experience with firearms, as these types of opinions tend to go hand in hand with being uninformed. and your made up statistics about cops encountering more criminals than citizens is also laughable. tell that to my wife who walked in on someone robbing our home yesterday. it happens, and a heck of a lot more than you think.

Huan, that's horrible, I hope your wife is OK and that they weren't able to get away with anything! I worry about the same thing.

And you are absolutely correct, in large part the police come after the crime or, in the best-case scenario, during. They cannot anticipate crime, they respond to it. We law abiding citizens are the ones who must initially confront criminals (except in the obvious cases such as motor vehicle infractions, etc) and I want to have the protection and reassurance of a firearm if I have to confront a break-in or assault until the police can arrive.

[BradW]

Originally Posted by huan

It is beyond obvious that you have little to no experience with firearms, as these types of opinions tend to go hand in hand with being uninformed. and your made up statistics about cops encountering more criminals than citizens is also laughable. tell that to my wife who walked in on someone robbing our home yesterday. it happens, and a heck of a lot more than you think.

sorry to hear that,hope your wife is okay,that indeed would be a very stressful thing to go through and it will take sometime to get over.

Did the person robbing your home have a gun huan ?

have the police found him or are they looking for him ?

i never made anything up huan...the police do indeed confront a lot more criminals then civilians do.

and i have plenty of experience with guns.

[BradW]

Originally Posted by flo

Huan, that's horrible, I hope your wife is OK and that they weren't able to get away with anything! I worry about the same thing.

And you are absolutely correct, in large part the police come after the crime or, in the best-case scenario, during. They cannot anticipate crime, they respond to it. We law abiding citizens are the ones who must initially confront criminals (except in the obvious cases such as motor vehicle infractions, etc) and I want to have the protection and reassurance of a firearm if I have to confront a break-in or assault until the police can arrive.

you do know flo that most private citizens that are killed in north America in
their own homes actually know the person pulling the trigger and the likely hood
of someone you dont know coming into your house and threatening you is very small indeed....
unless of course you live very near places where drug users frequent.

[BradW]

Originally Posted by NateR

Except for the fact that law enforcement officers frequently put their own safety ahead of the citizens they are supposed to serve and protect.

As the saying goes, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

But that doesn't mean the police will actually do anything when they get there because police are under no legal obligation to prevent crime or prevent harm to regular citizens. Anytime victims of crime have tried to sue the police for dereliction of duty in preventing violent crimes, some of which have lead to deaths, the victims have lost as the courts usually side with the police.

Look up Warren vs. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (DC 1981), in which police officers allowed three college girls to be raped and brutalized for over 14 hours after the girls had called 911 for help. The police arrived on the scene, knocked on the door and when the rapists didn't answer the door, because they were too busy raping the girls, the police left. When the girls tried to sue the police force, the courts ruled on the side of the police. The rapists were only armed with one knife. A single handgun in the possession of one of the girls could have prevented the entire crime. It's hard to imagine a gun making the situation much worse.

Then look up Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, 545 US 748 (2005). A couple had gone through a rough divorce and the husband was given a restraining order stating that he was not allowed within 100 feet of his wife or his 3 daughters, under penalty of law. The police were ordered to enforce the restraining order by any means that they saw fit, including arresting the husband if he violated it. Unfortunately, the husband did violate his restraining order and kidnapped his daughters. The wife called the police but they refused to do anything about it for several hours and kept telling her to call back later. She finally went to the police station at 12:50 AM and one of the officers took her report, then went to get something to eat. The husband did eventually show up at the police station at around 3:20 AM.... shooting. He was gunned down by the police, but it was too late. He had already killed all three of his daughters.

When the mother tried suing the police officers for not taking action sooner and not enforcing the restraining order, the courts sided with the police.

American citizens have no Constitutional right to protection from the police. We do have a Constitutional right to carry weapons to protect ourselves, however.

So, if someone thinks they don't need a gun because the police will protect them, then they might be in for an extremely rude awakening at some point in the future.

it sounds like your legal system could use an over haul.

i never ever said people shouldn't be able to protect themselves with guns
and have guns readily available to them...i just think certain types of guns should have greater restrictions on them and some banned completely.

tell me Nate if someone was breaking into your house and you were home
do you think you would have time to get your hand gun out of the lock box
and load it in time to confront them or not ?

or do you think your hand gun doesn't need to be in a lock box but maybe in your night stand or desk drawer so its easily accessible to you.

I honestly hope you never have to find out but what i will say is if someone broke
into my house i have a 30-30 that im sure would be just as effective at stopping
someone as a hand gun or an assault rifle but would be impractical for going out and
killing a large group of people...mostly because my rifle will hold only 5 plus one in the chamber.

[huan]

Originally Posted by BradW

sorry to hear that,hope your wife is okay,that indeed would be a very stressful thing to go through and it will take sometime to get over.

Did the person robbing your home have a gun huan ?

have the police found him or are they looking for him ?

i never made anything up huan...the police do indeed confront a lot more criminals then civilians do.

and i have plenty of experience with guns.

giving thanks to God my wife and kids are okay. I do not know if the criminal entered unarmed but they managed to escape with a couple of my firearms in the process. my primary semi-auto pistol and my go to bolt rifle for deer season. police are still investigating, here's to hoping the prints turn up someone. lets just say the suspect is extremely fortunate I was not the one coming home at that time.

while cops individually may encounter more criminals on an individual basis, it stands to reason that there are far more private citizens and criminals than armed policemen and policewomen. criminals and cowards typically also do not go out of their way to solicit attention from individuals who are armed, which obviously includes the police force.

were you aware the clackamas mall shooter in oregon a couple weeks ago was deterred by a citizen who was carrying concealed? when faced with this armed civilian who drew on him the coward no longer had unprotected sheep to prey upon and the coward wolf's course of action was to run to the nearest stairwell and commit suicide. the civilian did not even open fire, as he was not sure he could engage the threat without wounding one of the many victims trying to escape the chaotic situation. how many lives did this civilian save? we will never know, but that man is a hero and I would be proud to shake his hand.

several months ago here in Phoenix a young 14 year old boy who was babysitting his 3 siblings shot a home intruder and protected those precious little ones from evil.

these types of stories are endless, yet the news typically does not cover many of them as such stories do not agree with their and our government's anti-gun and disarm agenda.

you claim to be familiar with guns, but I cannot comprehend how someone who is so familiar with guns can be of the opinion that making it harder for law abiding citizens to come by a type of tool is somehow going to deter law breakers, outlaws, and evildoers. what types of guns I own for my own and my families protection is nobody's business, and especially not the government's.

civilian access to firearms of ALL types is the last line of defense in this country. God help us if we disarm the sheepdogs just because the sight of the sheepdog's teeth reminds the sheep of preying wolves. what a sad bunch of cowardly sheep we have become...

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin.

[flo]

Originally Posted by BradW

you do know flo that most private citizens that are killed in north America in
their own homes actually know the person pulling the trigger and the likely hood
of someone you dont know coming into your house and threatening you is very small indeed....
unless of course you live very near places where drug users frequent.

My feeling is that -- whether the chance of a break-in or assault is great or small - I'm going to protect myself and be prepared. It is my right as an American to own a firearm. It's up to me to be knowledgeable about gun usage, safety and storage.

[Bonnie]

Originally Posted by huan

It is beyond obvious that you have little to no experience with firearms, as these types of opinions tend to go hand in hand with being uninformed. and your made up statistics about cops encountering more criminals than citizens is also laughable. tell that to my wife who walked in on someone robbing our home yesterday. it happens, and a heck of a lot more than you think.

Huan, I know that must have been a very frightening experience for her, for all of you.

Home invasions and robberies are happening more frequently now. You see these stories on the news constantly especially around the holiday season. These criminals are becoming more and more brazen all the time, they don't care if anyone is home or who they terrorize, hurt or kill. And alarm systems don't seem to be a deterrent at all...for homes or businesses. You can't feel safe anywhere, in your home, or out in public. Here are a few examples of crimes that happened in local and surrounding areas this past year:

A family was having a barbeque at their home with family and friends. They were sitting in their yard, having a good time when two men drive up, get out with guns and force them into the house and rob them. There are many stories like these taking place. Some of these criminals are posing as police officers.

Last Christmas, an elderly couple was followed home from the pharmacy. The guy waited outside their front door for his chance to gain entry. When the elderly man let their dog out, the man forced his way in and beat both of them with his bare hands, he beat the elderly woman to death. This couple were in their 80's, they had been married for 60+ years.

We had an incredible number of "smash and grab" robberies of businesses this past year. A lot of them were jewelry stores, one was in a mall, a lot of them in broad daylight, people all around, cameras recording them, they didn't care. That's how brazen these criminals have gotten. It was frustrating to hear each time that they had gotten away, and it was infuriating seeing them on video terrorizing and threatening people during these robberies. I admit when I saw the videos, I wished that someone had been able to take them out.

[F34R]

Originally Posted by BradW

law enforcement are paid to protect the public and in doing their duty they routinely
have to deal with gun toting criminals and need access to something other then a hunting rifle
to protect themselves from harm.

private citizens on the other hand hardly ever encounter criminals,most of the time a persons life is only endanger when a mentally disturbed person
flips out and trys to kill everyone in sight...or maybe its someone thats just had enough of their spouse or family or coworkers,but no matter what the reason if these
people didnt have access to hand guns and assault rifles the death toll would surly be a lot lower.
a person can be killed by any gun but to kill a group of people it is much easier
with a semiautomatic or fully automatic hand gun or rifle then it is with a hunting rifle.

Police are more often called to crime scenes that criminals have already confronted civilians. Why do you think Police need more than a hunting rifle, but civilians don't? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Police are victims of crimes far less than civilians. "Let's go rob the police... even though they have guns", or "Let's rob people that probably don't have guns, training, bullet res vests on, etc., etc." I don't know where you came up with the

private citizens on the other hand hardly ever encounter criminals,most of the time a persons life is only endanger when a mentally disturbed person
flips out and trys to kill everyone in sight

That's insane to even believe that lol. Police just rarely encounter criminals until those criminals have already committed a crime. smh

Originally Posted by BradW

sorry to hear that,hope your wife is okay,that indeed would be a very stressful thing to go through and it will take sometime to get over.

Did the person robbing your home have a gun huan ?

have the police found him or are they looking for him ?

i never made anything up huan...the police do indeed confront a lot more criminals then civilians do.

and i have plenty of experience with guns.

See, your own example here... the police have to find the criminals to deal with them, AFTER that criminal already victimized a civilian.