How do you measure worth

[NateR]

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

... just i can't possibly come to the realization that murderers and rapists and other scum of the earth are as much worth as others ..

Well, in the eyes of GOD, you and I are no better than they are.

Here are some of the more notorious serial killers that we know of:

Ted Bundy: serial killer, rapist, kidnapper and necrophile who confessed to 30 homicides across 7 states, but is believed to have killed many more.

Ted Bundy accepted Jesus Christ and became a born-again Christian just before he was executed in 1989.

Ted Bundy is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

Jeffery Dahmer: murdered 17 men and boys and those murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.

Jeffery Dahmer became a born-again Christian while in prison and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate in 1994.

Jeffery Dahmer is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

David Berkowitz: the "Son of Sam" killer who killed 6 people and wounded several others over the course of 8 shootings in the 1970s. He claimed that he was commanded to kill those people by a demon that had possessed his neighbor's dog.

David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in 1987 and is still currently serving his time in prison; but when he dies he will be in Heaven with Jesus Christ.

Every sin that those men committed has been wiped clean. That's the power of Jesus Christ. It also means that we aren't allowed to put ourselves above these people because of what they've done. If you refuse to associate with murderers and rapists, then Heaven will not be the place for you.

[MattHughesRocks]

Wow, I had no idea! Praise the Lord! I think! I still hope I don't run into any of those suckers when I get to heaven!

Originally Posted by NateR

Here are some of the more notorious serial killers that we know of:

Ted Bundy: serial killer, rapist, kidnapper and necrophile who confessed to 30 homicides across 7 states, but is believed to have killed many more.

Ted Bundy accepted Jesus Christ and became a born-again Christian just before he was executed in 1989.

Ted Bundy is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

Jeffery Dahmer: murdered 17 men and boys and those murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.

Jeffery Dahmer became a born-again Christian while in prison and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate in 1994.

Jeffery Dahmer is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

David Berkowitz: the "Son of Sam" killer who killed 6 people and wounded several others over the course of 8 shootings in the 1970s. He claimed that he was commanded to kill those people by a demon that had possessed his neighbor's dog.

David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in 1987 and is still currently serving his time in prison; but when he dies he will be in Heaven with Jesus Christ.

Every sin that those men committed has been wiped clean. That's the power of Jesus Christ. It also means that we aren't allowed to put ourselves above these people because of what they've done. If you refuse to associate with murderers and rapists, then Heaven will not be the place for you.

[VCURamFan]

Originally Posted by NateR

Well, in the eyes of GOD, you and I are no better than they are.

Here are some of the more notorious serial killers that we know of:

Ted Bundy: serial killer, rapist, kidnapper and necrophile who confessed to 30 homicides across 7 states, but is believed to have killed many more.

Ted Bundy accepted Jesus Christ and became a born-again Christian just before he was executed in 1989.

Ted Bundy is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

Jeffery Dahmer: murdered 17 men and boys and those murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.

Jeffery Dahmer became a born-again Christian while in prison and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate in 1994.

Jeffery Dahmer is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

David Berkowitz: the "Son of Sam" killer who killed 6 people and wounded several others over the course of 8 shootings in the 1970s. He claimed that he was commanded to kill those people by a demon that had possessed his neighbor's dog.

David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in 1987 and is still currently serving his time in prison; but when he dies he will be in Heaven with Jesus Christ.

Every sin that those men committed has been wiped clean. That's the power of Jesus Christ. It also means that we aren't allowed to put ourselves above these people because of what they've done. If you refuse to associate with murderers and rapists, then Heaven will not be the place for you.

Wow, what a powerful witness that is, I had no idea!

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Well, in the eyes of GOD, you and I are no better than they are.

Here are some of the more notorious serial killers that we know of:

Ted Bundy: serial killer, rapist, kidnapper and necrophile who confessed to 30 homicides across 7 states, but is believed to have killed many more.

Ted Bundy accepted Jesus Christ and became a born-again Christian just before he was executed in 1989.

Ted Bundy is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

Jeffery Dahmer: murdered 17 men and boys and those murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.

Jeffery Dahmer became a born-again Christian while in prison and was beaten to death by a fellow inmate in 1994.

Jeffery Dahmer is in Heaven with Jesus Christ right now.

David Berkowitz: the "Son of Sam" killer who killed 6 people and wounded several others over the course of 8 shootings in the 1970s. He claimed that he was commanded to kill those people by a demon that had possessed his neighbor's dog.

David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in 1987 and is still currently serving his time in prison; but when he dies he will be in Heaven with Jesus Christ.

Every sin that those men committed has been wiped clean. That's the power of Jesus Christ. It also means that we aren't allowed to put ourselves above these people because of what they've done. If you refuse to associate with murderers and rapists, then Heaven will not be the place for you.

....I suppose that you would say those people have been ellected..No?

Regardless of what horrors and evils they committed you would suppose they were destined for Heaven prior to birth...I suppose it was GODs plan to reveal himself to them, and for him to do that, they needed to commit all those crimes in order to see they needed saving?

What about if you "refuse to associate yourself" with liars, adultorers, homosexuals. Most of us will never come into contact with murderers, and probably not with rapists...but we all come into connection with people whose lifestyles in some way involve committing sin. If we associate ourselves with them...will it not spoil our witness? How can we witness to the world, if we then become friends with those knee deep with sin inpepetua?

If you have to keep up a reputation of being GODly and Christian, and you deliberately go out of your way to avoid them, so as to appear more Christlike...is that a sin Nathan? Where do we draw the line between wanting to witness to the world, if that is the ministry GOD has selected for us, and doing his Will, which may also consist of engaging with, and be seen with, those the world would consider not good company for Christians?

Here is another thing...Those people had their "conversions" whilst safely locked up. Would you have been willing to have let them out as an act of forgiveness, to proove that they would be able to "go and sin no more"

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Your ideas sound dangerously close to a meritocracy. Which is a form of social eugenics that basically says only those who contribute and are productive to society deserve to live.

If GOD has Truely Selected those who will live and those who will die, and they have NO choice but to heed the call...then...though we know not what his criteria may be...GOD is running a Meritocracy...those who he chooses are far more important then those who he discards...because he has chosen them for everlasting favour.

You may reply that as you can not distinguish the criteria and whose in and whose out, you can not assume you are better then others, incase it turns out they are chosen to.

You may also say that as all deserve to be discarded we should be grateful that he calls anyone.

Both are true...but both do not rule out the main point.

IF GOD has chosen, their is a heirachy, a criteria and a benchmark...those that make the grade and are called, and those who do not. Ergo...to be chosen is to be of worth.....and to be eternally damned is to be devoid of value.

Does your God really do that Nathan?

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

....I suppose that you would say those people have been ellected..No?

Regardless of what horrors and evils they committed you would suppose they were destined for Heaven prior to birth...I suppose it was GODs plan to reveal himself to them, and for him to do that, they needed to commit all those crimes in order to see they needed saving?

What about if you "refuse to associate yourself" with liars, adultorers, homosexuals. Most of us will never come into contact with murderers, and probably not with rapists...but we all come into connection with people whose lifestyles in some way involve committing sin. If we associate ourselves with them...will it not spoil our witness? How can we witness to the world, if we then become friends with those knee deep with sin inpepetua?

If you have to keep up a reputation of being GODly and Christian, and you deliberately go out of your way to avoid them, so as to appear more Christlike...is that a sin Nathan? Where do we draw the line between wanting to witness to the world, if that is the ministry GOD has selected for us, and doing his Will, which may also consist of engaging with, and be seen with, those the world would consider not good company for Christians?

Here is another thing...Those people had their "conversions" whilst safely locked up. Would you have been willing to have let them out as an act of forgiveness, to proove that they would be able to "go and sin no more"

Of course, they were elect. But what's really going to be tough for you to wrap your head around is that undoubtedly many of their victims are in Hell right now. This means that GOD not only chose Jeffery Dahmer before he committed a single murder, but He knew that His chosen would commit every single one of those murders and consign several souls to eternal damnation before He ever chose him. In fact, GOD knew all this before He even created Jeffery Dahmer.

Did you think those murders Jeffery Dahmer committed happened while GOD was somehow asleep at the switch? In your second post, you ask "Does your God really do that Nathan?" Well, I would say that my GOD is the GOD of the Bible and He would never fall asleep at the switch. So, I guess that just leaves the question of would "your God" do that?

Anyways, the Bible tells us to refuse to associate with people who claim to be believers and live immoral lives. So, a man who claims to be a Christian but is actively cheating on his wife should be confronted and ultimately kicked out of the church if he refuses to confess his sins and ask GOD for forgiveness. A man who thinks that he can live an active life as a homosexual and still be a Christian, should be similarly shunned by the Church. That's pretty clearly commanded in the Bible.

However, we are not supposed to refuse to associate with non-believers just because of their lifestyle; but they cannot become Christians unless they first leave that lifestyle behind.

David Burkowitz is still alive and believes it is his duty to serve out his sentence. He is probably doing more good for the Kingdom of GOD inside prison than he would be outside of prison.

I believe anyone who truly converted to Christ in prison, should be resolved to serve out their sentence and pay their debt to society. If a convict becomes a Christian and immediately says, "Okay, I'm a Christian now, I'm a different person, you should let me out now." Well, then that is the first clue that their conversion was not real and they are simply looking for a loophole to get out of paying for their crimes.

Originally Posted by Tyburn

If GOD has Truely Selected those who will live and those who will die, and they have NO choice but to heed the call...then...though we know not what his criteria may be...GOD is running a Meritocracy...those who he chooses are far more important then those who he discards...because he has chosen them for everlasting favour.

You may reply that as you can not distinguish the criteria and whose in and whose out, you can not assume you are better then others, incase it turns out they are chosen to.

You may also say that as all deserve to be discarded we should be grateful that he calls anyone.

Both are true...but both do not rule out the main point.

IF GOD has chosen, their is a heirachy, a criteria and a benchmark...those that make the grade and are called, and those who do not. Ergo...to be chosen is to be of worth.....and to be eternally damned is to be devoid of value.

Does your God really do that Nathan?

Well, first of all, the rules that apply to human beings don't apply to GOD. If a man angers GOD and GOD takes his life, that's not murder. If a man angers me and I take his life, then that would be murder. Why? Because I'm not GOD. GOD gave life to that man, so He can take that life back anytime He wants to. I have no power to give life to anyone, thus it is not my right to take someone's life for my personal satisfaction. Would it be a sin for GOD to steal? Well, actually it would be impossible for GOD to steal, because if you already own everything in existence, then how can you steal from yourself? Laws are for us, not GOD. GOD is above the law.

So, if GOD decided to run a meritocracy, then it would be fine, because He's GOD and that's His prerogative. However, GOD is no respecter of persons, so GOD doesn't run a meritocracy. In fact, GOD tends to choose those who we would consider to be the scum of the earth:

I Corinthians 1:26-29
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

That's grace and the complete opposite of a meritocracy.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

1) Of course, they were elect. But what's really going to be tough for you to wrap your head around is that undoubtedly many of their victims are in Hell right now. This means that GOD not only chose Jeffery Dahmer before he committed a single murder, but He knew that His chosen would commit every single one of those murders and consign several souls to eternal damnation before He ever chose him.

2) In fact, GOD knew all this before He even created Jeffery Dahmer.

3) Did you think those murders Jeffery Dahmer committed happened while GOD was somehow asleep at the switch? In your second post, you ask "Does your God really do that Nathan?" Well, I would say that my GOD is the GOD of the Bible and He would never fall asleep at the switch. So, I guess that just leaves the question of would "your God" do that?

4) Anyways, the Bible tells us to refuse to associate with people who claim to be believers and live immoral lives. So, a man who claims to be a Christian but is actively cheating on his wife should be confronted and ultimately kicked out of the church if he refuses to confess his sins and ask GOD for forgiveness. A man who thinks that he can live an active life as a homosexual and still be a Christian, should be similarly shunned by the Church. That's pretty clearly commanded in the Bible.

5) However, we are not supposed to refuse to associate with non-believers just because of their lifestyle; but they cannot become Christians unless they first leave that lifestyle behind.

6) David Burkowitz is still alive and believes it is his duty to serve out his sentence. He is probably doing more good for the Kingdom of GOD inside prison than he would be outside of prison.

I believe anyone who truly converted to Christ in prison, should be resolved to serve out their sentence and pay their debt to society. If a convict becomes a Christian and immediately says, "Okay, I'm a Christian now, I'm a different person, you should let me out now." Well, then that is the first clue that their conversion was not real and they are simply looking for a loophole to get out of paying for their crimes.



Well, first of all, the rules that apply to human beings don't apply to GOD. If a man angers GOD and GOD takes his life, that's not murder. If a man angers me and I take his life, then that would be murder. Why? Because I'm not GOD.

7) GOD gave life to that man, so He can take that life back anytime He wants to. I have no power to give life to anyone, thus it is not my right to take someone's life for my personal satisfaction. Would it be a sin for GOD to steal? Well, actually it would be impossible for GOD to steal, because if you already own everything in existence, then how can you steal from yourself? Laws are for us, not GOD. GOD is above the law.

So, if GOD decided to run a meritocracy, then it would be fine, because He's GOD and that's His prerogative. However, GOD is no respecter of persons, so GOD doesn't run a meritocracy.

8) In fact, GOD tends to choose those who we would consider to be the scum of the earth:

I Corinthians 1:26-29
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

9) That's grace and the complete opposite of a meritocracy.

1) Can GOD ordain people to commit sin I have no problem thinking any heathen murdered would go to Hell. Why do you think that I'd have a problem with that?

Why also would you think that GOD, IF he ordained people to Murder, would ordain them to Murder Heathen...after all Ezekiel says he does not desire the death of any sinner, but that they turn and repent (something they cant do under your guise of Christianity...but you get the idea) If GOD did command murder, then would he not command the death of the Ellect...no harm done that way...

2) Knowing, and Causing are two different things. I KNEW you would reply to this thread...I didnt cause you to do it. Why cant GOD be the same?

3) No...I do not hold to the Enlightenment view of God...which is as absurd as your Calvinism, but for other reasons. I believe that GOD knows all, but doesnt cause most...what he does is, despite knowing they are against his will, he permits them to occure. He does this because he would rather someone do something really horrible and later repent...then someone be forced to love him...why? because GOD understands that you can not force Love without it being false.

He wants to be Loved because we want to Love, not because he commands us to Love. He has Faith that some of his Creation can see through the fallen and sinful world and turn to him, he has hope that they might come to Love him for who and what he is...and regardless he loves them all. He just wouldnt make people with no ability to choose, nor would he create people destined for failure.

What he might do is create people he knows will fail, and not stop them.

4) So...if those murderers had their conversions, were released and killed again...were they never Ellected in the first place? did they lie about being Ellected? did they honnestly think they were, but actually werent? What if they keep offending, but then keep repenting...at what stage do we judge that they are not saved, rather then just keep falling into temptation?

5) according to you noone "becomes" a Christian. They either are Ellected or they are Not Ellected. "Become" implies they have an ability to do it by themselves, or an ability to choose christ and leave sinful lives. Your Philosophy allows for neither. We are all to sinful to leave sinful lives behind...thats why some are Ellected...and they leave their sinful lives only because Christ basically removes it for them.

6) now re-read the original question and answer it.

7) GOD is Holy...therefore he is more bound by The Law then us. He CREATED the Law and he must abide by that Law because to be GOD has nothing to do with his level of power. It has to do with him being Holy. He can suspend Judgement...but he can not reverse it. This is why Christs Death HAD to happen...SOMEONE had to die, because no matter how much he loves...he has to Judge First...if he fails to Judge he can not be Holy, and he MUST be Holy.

You can therefore expect his Judgement to always be Just according to his Word and Law. The Law outlines to MEN what GOD has to live with permanently. He told man what they had to do to bypass his security system frankly...You may get close to me...but because I am Holy you must do this to be able to stand in my presence.

Yet his Will superceeds he Law all the time...for his Want actually circumvents sin. Why should a Holy GOD crave Love from a sodden sinful creation? If you could answer that Question, "what is man that you care for him so" you could properly understand something special about GOD that goes beyond his Judgement....You will never get that understanding through the man made dogmatism of Calvin, because it misses the one thing that is at the heart of GOD...the thing that would make him go to extraordinary lengths and great personal expense to try and unify the unGodly with the absolute Holy. You would also find...without a bias to freewill which writes off any "ellect" (unless given to Ancient Israel, Those Credited with Righteousness, The Remenant of Isreal, or a direct reference to those who are saved through personal choice) you write off that love, that motivation to save all who will come to him, and ultimately, goodness knows why GOD bothered with such elaborate hoax as the Scriptures, revealing the Law, and the death of Christ...when clearly, he has no motivation to save any but a few chosen who he didnt really need to put through the temporal realm in the first place.

Calvinism produces a loveless GOD. Is your God loveless Nathan?

8) im quids in if he's looking for sinful scum My sin is henous and outlawed by name in both testaments of scripture ...but that might disqualify yourself Nathan... not sure your really that bad

9) its Grace only to the Ellect...and as they are Ellect...its not even Grace...its a simple selection, nothing special is being sent to them, they were just decided for Heaven rather then Hell.

If you ask me, your portrayal of GOD is way off...to me its about as far off as any herasy. Being in a relationship with someone is to get to know them...I will admit he does sometimes do things that I cant fathom, things I didnt think he would condone. But I can not get round the one premise. If he wants Love, then he cant really have pre-destiny...at least not to the extent you claim.

He can be all Knowing, he can Guide, he can conspire events to try and force things...and occasionally, he can pre-ordain...but to white wash the whole point of life...If what you say is absolutely true either I am in a relationship with something else...or else I have been brainwashed into believing I love something that I do not.

Neither of which are appealing, or appear true on a basic level...and I have interaction with Him a lot...he punishes me when I do bad things in really horrible ways sometimes Sometimes I even know what he is likely to do if I do something wrong...and unbelievably...sometimes I actively choose to do wrong despite knowing exactly what he will do to punish me afterwards...He can be soo mean sometimes but then I can be so stupid...I regret it afterwards...always regret it...the cost wasnt worth the sin and I am left feeling far worse then I thought I would be in such a situation

Perhaps I am wrong...but I dont really think so....I wonder how responsible that makes me...Suppose GOD told you that someone you loved would die if you decided to sin a certain way...and you did sin...and that person then did die...

is that your fault for sinning...or his fault for punishing you for the sin?

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

1) Can GOD ordain people to commit sin

No. Absolutely not. If you think that's what I said, then I would seriously question your reading comprehension skills. I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of your post, because you have so epically missed the point that it would be a waste of my time to do so.

GOD elected them for salvation before they were even born. Before He even created the universe, GOD knew that Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer would be His followers.

He also knew that their sin nature would lead them to commit horrible crimes prior to their conversion. GOD knows the future and He allowed those sins to be committed. If GOD doesn't know the future, then He's not GOD.

This should be an encouragement to any true Christian, because it only helps to underscore the fact that we are never too far gone for GOD's forgiveness while we are still alive.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

No. Absolutely not. If you think that's what I said, then I would seriously question your reading comprehension skills. I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of your post, because you have so epically missed the point that it would be a waste of my time to do so.

GOD elected them for salvation before they were even born. Before He even created the universe, GOD knew that Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer would be His followers.

He also knew that their sin nature would lead them to commit horrible crimes prior to their conversion. GOD knows the future and He allowed those sins to be committed. If GOD doesn't know the future, then He's not GOD.

This should be an encouragement to any true Christian, because it only helps to underscore the fact that we are never too far gone for GOD's forgiveness while we are still alive.

I didnt miss anything Nathan.

Knowing, is not synonomous with creating.Its not in despute what GOD "knew" or his foreknowledge The question is did he make it happen. The English word "ellected" implies strongly that those murderers were appointed. Had No Choice in their Eternal Salvation....Which does begger the question...IF GOD Not only KNEW but MADE them Saved...then are we to believe that is the only thing he "made" them do?

If he Ordains ones future it means it is planned out, it means it is predestined to happen. That would include the Murders...infact it would include everything for Everyone.

You can avoid these questions coz you cant reconcile them and act in a hollier then thou hostile I-wont-bother-reading-you attitude. Or, like someone who is not afraid of the truth, believes he knows a certain truth, and knows if that truth is truth it cant be undone through vigorous interogation, then like a mature adult, feel free to continue this discussion with me any time you like.

But suffice to say you've countered perfectly your own arguement. GOD "ellects" people to salvation through predestiny CAN NOT be reconciled with GOD cant ordain one to sinful action (which of course is true) Ergo...this predestination ellected popycot is nothing but calvinist dogmatic twaddle invented by man

[flo]

It's such a comfort to know we can be forgiven for our sins. I guess the part that's hard for me to wrap my mind around is how those mass murderers - who are/were such evil people - can truly be saved but that is what God promises us. So I guess it's the transformation from evil to being saved (not God's forgiveness) that seems difficult to accept. For me, anyway.