"You're Not Special"

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

1)I'm not going through a Calvinist stage. Predestination is not a Calvinist doctrine, it is a Biblical one. It predates John Calvin, it predates the New Testament, it even predates Moses.

2)GOD chose the Israelites as His people before Abraham and his wife bore their first son. GOD didn't "choose to give them the option" to be His people because they hadn't even been born yet.

3)According to Paul, we were all chosen for salvation before GOD even created the universe. You may not like it, but you can't deny what the Bible says.

1)I've been here long enough, Nathan, To have seen you argue AGAINST this sort of dogma. What next...Salvation won and lost??

2)We all know there is a difference between the Jews being chosen, and a select remenant being restored...and the Heathen being grafted onto the inheritance.

3) According to Paul we all can be...and I dont despute that...but the choice is ours to make. GOD doesnt force himself onto people like some demons do. Rather he knocks...and its up to us to answer. He will indwell...but only at our request.

If people were predestined, there would be no need for you to spread the Gospel at all. No need to tell a soul...after all, neither they, nor you have a choice...those who are saved simply are....thats NOT the message of Christianity.

GOD knowing who makes it and who doesnt, isnt synonomous with GOD creating that outcome.

Seek and Ye shall find....(unless you aint been ellected??) Knock and the door shall be opened unto you....(Or slammed in your face because he doesnt want you) Oh...and Intrinsic Value is right out of the window...Made in the image of GOD but preordained for Hell???? Created for Hell?? With the sole purpose of being lost in some kinda mock spiritual war????

If you say so Nate

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

1)I've been here long enough, Nathan, To have seen you argue AGAINST this sort of dogma. What next...Salvation won and lost??

2)We all know there is a difference between the Jews being chosen, and a select remenant being restored...and the Heathen being grafted onto the inheritance.

3) According to Paul we all can be...and I dont despute that...but the choice is ours to make. GOD doesnt force himself onto people like some demons do. Rather he knocks...and its up to us to answer. He will indwell...but only at our request.

If people were predestined, there would be no need for you to spread the Gospel at all. No need to tell a soul...after all, neither they, nor you have a choice...those who are saved simply are....thats NOT the message of Christianity.

GOD knowing who makes it and who doesnt, isnt synonomous with GOD creating that outcome.

Seek and Ye shall find....(unless you aint been ellected??) Knock and the door shall be opened unto you....(Or slammed in your face because he doesnt want you) Oh...and Intrinsic Value is right out of the window...Made in the image of GOD but preordained for Hell???? Created for Hell?? With the sole purpose of being lost in some kinda mock spiritual war????

If you say so Nate

I can't recall a time when I have NOT believed in predestination. I might not have always understood it, but the Bible clearly teaches it so we MUST accept it. There is no choice in the matter.

As for Calvinism, I can't recall ever "railing against it" as you put it. I might have been unwilling to be categorized as a Calvinist because I didn't understand what Calvinism was about. However, like I stated, predestination predates John Calvin so it's not Calvinism it's the Word of GOD.

Salvation is 100% a work of GOD, we contribute nothing to our own salvation.

As for GOD creating people for Hell, then I simply refer you to Romans 9:22 in which Paul asks, doesn't GOD have the right to create vessels for the purpose of demonstrating his wrath? Can He not do that? Who are we to question Him?

If we are predestined for salvation then what is the point of spreading the Gospel? Well, #1 it's a direct command from GOD, so we cannot claim that one of His commands is pointless. #2, we don't know who has been chosen and who hasn't, which is why we need to spread the Gospel to everyone in the hopes that a few believe.

[Bonnie]

Originally Posted by adamt

http://www.wimp.com/graduationspeech/


here's the whole 13 minute speech

Thanks, Adam. People should definitely watch the video to hear his whole speech. Definitely makes a difference.

[adamt]

Originally Posted by Bonnie

Thanks, Adam. People should definitely watch the video to hear his whole speech. Definitely makes a difference.

yeah that's what i thought too, the video does it justice

[Bonnie]

Originally Posted by adamt

yeah that's what i thought too, the video does it justice

Yeah.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

1)doesn't GOD have the right to create vessels for the purpose of demonstrating his wrath? Can He not do that? Who are we to question Him?

If we are predestined for salvation then what is the point of spreading the Gospel? Well,

2) #1 it's a direct command from GOD, so we cannot claim that one of His commands is pointless.

3)#2, we don't know who has been chosen and who hasn't, which is why we need to spread the Gospel to everyone in the hopes that a few believe.

1) We're not asking if its something GOD "could" do...we are asking if its something GOD "would" do...and we know, even from the old testament that the answer to that is no...even in the midst of giving the law, GOD presents the following of it, to even those he has "chosen" as a Decision for them...he also says that he does not desire the death of any sinner....

if he doesnt desire the death of any sinner, then how can you claim he has designed some sinners for Hell...that undermines what he says even when giving the law...which is designed to show us we will fail alone!!!

See I set before you blessings and curses...I call heaven and earth as witnesses...Choose life....

Sorry but that is undeniable...and if he is saying that to his chosen race...dont forget just coz he chose the Jews doesnt mean they all make it!! he calls them a "Rebellious house" what?? if they had no choice they would be unable to rebel...and thats dealing with a people WE KNOW are ellect...not a pauline assertion...Paul uses the word Faith...when the true translation of the word doesnt involve any "faith" at all...but an absolute certainty...The word Faith is the same as Title Deed...as is, legal deeds of ownership....thats not to be confused with mere hope of things unseen...I dont blame Paul...but I do say the translation of the pauline texts are so poor they CREATE paradoxes that allow arguments like this to occure

2) GODs commands carry purpose...there is no purpose in spreading the news if you can not influence the decision of those who hear it....dont hide behind "well GOD knows best so I dont question" coz Truth can cope with being questioned...it wont falter because its interrogated.

3) Why would you even care? You cant change the outcome, they cant change the outcome, there is no hope...only a preordained plan. Thus you dont need to tell anyone anything, doing so will make no difference whatsoever.

It makes a mockery of the whole point of witness....which I recognise is always hush-hush on this forum.

[rearnakedchoke]

i don't see the positives in telling a bunch of highschool kids they are not special .. they are there to celebrate their graduation, not to be told by someone they are not special .. well maybe that is what some of them are trying to do with their lives ... i don't think many of those kids will take to heart what this guy says .. but whatever ..

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

1) We're not asking if its something GOD "could" do...we are asking if its something GOD "would" do...and we know, even from the old testament that the answer to that is no...even in the midst of giving the law, GOD presents the following of it, to even those he has "chosen" as a Decision for them...he also says that he does not desire the death of any sinner....

if he doesnt desire the death of any sinner, then how can you claim he has designed some sinners for Hell...that undermines what he says even when giving the law...which is designed to show us we will fail alone!!!

See I set before you blessings and curses...I call heaven and earth as witnesses...Choose life....

Sorry but that is undeniable...and if he is saying that to his chosen race...dont forget just coz he chose the Jews doesnt mean they all make it!! he calls them a "Rebellious house" what?? if they had no choice they would be unable to rebel...and thats dealing with a people WE KNOW are ellect...not a pauline assertion...Paul uses the word Faith...when the true translation of the word doesnt involve any "faith" at all...but an absolute certainty...The word Faith is the same as Title Deed...as is, legal deeds of ownership....thats not to be confused with mere hope of things unseen...I dont blame Paul...but I do say the translation of the pauline texts are so poor they CREATE paradoxes that allow arguments like this to occure

2) GODs commands carry purpose...there is no purpose in spreading the news if you can not influence the decision of those who hear it....dont hide behind "well GOD knows best so I dont question" coz Truth can cope with being questioned...it wont falter because its interrogated.

3) Why would you even care? You cant change the outcome, they cant change the outcome, there is no hope...only a preordained plan. Thus you dont need to tell anyone anything, doing so will make no difference whatsoever.

It makes a mockery of the whole point of witness....which I recognise is always hush-hush on this forum.

The "vessels prepared for destruction" is Paul's hypothetical, not mine. You can take it up with him when we get to Heaven, if you disagree with it.

We're straying way off topic now, but I don't claim to understand everything about predestination. I simply accept is as reality because the Bible teaches it so clearly. Probably the biggest difference in my theology now as compared to when I first started posting on this forum, is that I'm more willing to admit to ignorance now than I was back then.

It's interesting that you bring up the "choose life" passage (Deuteronomy 30:19) because taken within context, that quote doesn't contradict the doctrine of election at all:

Who is speaking in that passage? Moses. Did Moses choose GOD or did GOD choose Moses? Obviously, GOD chose Moses, despite Moses' reluctance and attempts to convince GOD that he was not the right choice. Did GOD give Moses the option to refuse to lead Israel out of Egypt? Not really. Moses kept coming up with excuses for why he couldn't do it; but GOD refused to let him back out.

Who was Moses speaking to? The nation of Israel, the Chosen People, GOD's Elect. Of course, not everyone in the nation of Israel was loyal to GOD, which shows us that there is still an element of free will within those who are elect. GOD took Israel out of Egypt even though not all of them wanted to leave Egypt (which is why they kept trying to go back). So, in that sense, GOD's election had been superseding their free will for years by the time Moses made this speech.

Did Moses give this speech to the pagan nations that inhabited Israel at the time? No, because GOD had already commanded that those people be exterminated. If you read the accounts in the book of Joshua, none of them were given the option to repent. That doesn't mean that there weren't elect within those cities (Rahab from Jericho is the most obvious example); but as a whole, the cities were not given the opportunity to turn from their wickedness before their total destruction (contrast that with Jonah and the Ninevites). Thus, the purging of the Holy Land gives us a very graphic illustration of GOD's election at work.

Just because GOD doesn't want to send people to Hell doesn't mean that He won't send people to Hell. Also, there are plenty of commands that we are given that we are incapable of understanding completely. It's foolishness to think that we, with our limited, finite brains, could ever fully comprehend the actions of an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent being.

Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

So the first step is to die to ourselves and give up this notion that we are smart enough to figure GOD out - which is really nothing more than sinful pride.

Overall, I have done my best to support my belief in predestination with Scriptural evidence. All you or anyone else has been able to offer in opposition is human logic, wisdom and the notion that, since you don't like it and it doesn't fit in with your personal image of GOD, then it can't be true. Nobody has yet to come up with any convincing Scriptural evidence against election.

Anyways, this is all I will say on the matter for now, because we've hijacked PTM's thread long enough. If you want to resurrect the Doctrine of Election thread in the Christianity section, then I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion with you.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

1) It's interesting that you bring up the "choose life" passage (Deuteronomy 30:19) because taken within context, that quote doesn't contradict the doctrine of election at all:

Who is speaking in that passage? Moses. Did Moses choose GOD or did GOD choose Moses? Obviously, GOD chose Moses, despite Moses' reluctance and attempts to convince GOD that he was not the right choice. Did GOD give Moses the option to refuse to lead Israel out of Egypt? Not really. Moses kept coming up with excuses for why he couldn't do it; but GOD refused to let him back out.

Who was Moses speaking to? The nation of Israel, the Chosen People, GOD's Elect. Of course, not everyone in the nation of Israel was loyal to GOD, which shows us that there is still an element of free will within those who are elect. GOD took Israel out of Egypt even though not all of them wanted to leave Egypt (which is why they kept trying to go back). So, in that sense, GOD's election had been superseding their free will for years by the time Moses made this speech.

2) Did Moses give this speech to the pagan nations that inhabited Israel at the time? No, because GOD had already commanded that those people be exterminated. If you read the accounts in the book of Joshua, none of them were given the option to repent. That doesn't mean that there weren't elect within those cities (Rahab from Jericho is the most obvious example); but as a whole, the cities were not given the opportunity to turn from their wickedness before their total destruction (contrast that with Jonah and the Ninevites). Thus, the purging of the Holy Land gives us a very graphic illustration of GOD's election at work.

3) Just because GOD doesn't want to send people to Hell doesn't mean that He won't send people to Hell. Also, there are plenty of commands that we are given that we are incapable of understanding completely. It's foolishness to think that we, with our limited, finite brains, could ever fully comprehend the actions of an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent being.

4) Nobody has yet to come up with any convincing Scriptural evidence against election.

5) Anyways, this is all I will say on the matter for now, because we've hijacked PTM's thread long enough. If you want to resurrect the Doctrine of Election thread in the Christianity section, then I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion with you.

1) GOD didnt even "choose" Moses to Enter the Promised Land....Tell me Nathan...Do you believe that all political and military leaders are "chosen" Just because Moses seemed to have a dramatic relationship with GOD....Of course not...to do so would lead you to be against the American Revolution....and would praise Barack Obama far more then I'm betting your willing to do...not least it would force you to say that Adolf Hitler also was "chosen" If you look at his campaign you can even SEE the demonic Whispers, because all the military men are so confused by Adolfs sudden idiotic ideas on military strategy at every key event. Course no doubt to you...he is a "vessil destined for destruction" or at least thats the English translation...I doubt you know the true origin for the word "destruction" in the original, nor how far different definitions might change that whole pragmatical sentance

Moses is speaking on behalf of GOD, therefore GOD is speaking, not Moses.

2) Did they exterminate those other tribes? its said that GOD kept some tribes before israel went into Egypt, to keep them in toe. Did GOD know that they would not obay him, and did he plan for that adequetly...oh yes, indeed. So despite the fact they were "chosen" he knew they would ignore him, and even went as far as planning to do things with these nations to keep Israel inline.

He plans around our free will, he doesnt seem to dictate. He suggests, and then plans for which suggestions he knows we will ignore. Thats not the same thing, its interactive, rather then preordained. Thats how a personal GOD would work of course. thats how relationships flourish and grow

3) He will send people to hell, because he respects their freewill. if they do not wish to spend eternity with him, do not wish to take up his personally very costly offer, which is free to them...he WONT preordain the outcome he desires but you can continue to hide behind "he knows best" if to follow the logic will break your dogma.

4) Trying to explain away passages like that deuteronomy...like repent for the Kingdom of GOD is near (even though you cant repent coz I have preordained you without that ability for yourself)....like knock and the door shall be opened unto you (but only if I decide you can be in my club) are real enough. To try and claim we dont understand their true meaning, thus your predestiny dogma must be correct is not the same as their being no scriptural counter to your argument.

5) Yes, because he seems really everso publically vocal and bothered by it We certainly do not need to open up old threads on this subject. This has been more then enough

Now back to telling snobby kids they are scum

[Conrad]

Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke

i don't see the positives in telling a bunch of highschool kids they are not special .. they are there to celebrate their graduation, not to be told by someone they are not special .. well maybe that is what some of them are trying to do with their lives ... i don't think many of those kids will take to heart what this guy says .. but whatever ..

Maybe the positive is that they've been raised (according to him) as a group with zero humility and plenty of hubris, and so he's bringing them to the truth instead of the lie. If it echoes in their ears years later, they'll just look back and wish they had taken it to heart at the time instead of blowing him off for "being a hater." Lol. Hrm...just had a second thought...

Pro_12:15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. " We'll see if the students were fools or not.

Not you! I'm thinking of the students.