Where does "Purgatory" come from and why don't Christians believe in it?

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by CAVEMAN1

Dave......most Catholic Churches here in America that I have visited in the past do use the book of common prayer.

As far as heretical teachings of the Catholic faith goes:

1) Purgatory
2) Baptism(sprinkling, instead of immersion)
3) Idol Worship(tons of examples)
4) Prayer to Mary(She is not the mediator between GOD and man!)
5) Priestly Intercession(Priests CANNOT forgive sin!)
6) Priestly Indulgences(Catholic Church teaches that remission of sin can be had by purchasing indulgences or paying penance.

Listen...the Book of Common Prayer was developed as an ANTI-ROMAN bit of Literiture. The ONLY Roman Churches permitted to use the BCP are the FEW Anglican Churches who have a special Apostolic Constitution, have Split with Anglicanism because of Womens Ministry and Gay rights, and have been adopted into the Roman Church. Benedict told them they may keep the BCP...but its ONLY permitted for specific Churches who, less then two years ago would have been Anglican. Outside of that the Roman Church DOES NOT use the Book of Common Prayer, commissioned, developed, and authorized by a MONARCH of ENGLAND following the Reformation

1) Indeed...but they arent sure if they believe that anymore. 2) There is nothing wrong with sprinkling, neither is their anything wrong with annointing with oil, neither is their anything wrong with confirmation, neither is their anything wrong with full immersion. Infant Baptism, whilst fine, is also meaningless in terms of eternity, except as a public demonstration of the parents intentions. 3) Having statues doesnt mean they worship them, neither does Rome promote the worshiping of them...however, it must be said that some Catholics probably do. 4) When you need prayer, why do you ask other people to pray for you? You will see prayer threads over this section. Are we mediators?? In terms of Eternity there is no difference between a living Christian and a Dead Christian, as all are alive in Christ...if you ask me to pray for/with you...why would you not ask ANY Christian period. The idea is not to pray TO Mary, the idea is to ASK Mary to pray FOR You...I dont consult the Saints...but then I generally dont ask anyone to pray for me, as I can pray myself. But I understand the principle of what is trying to be expressed. Now, again I am sure these things get abused...but can you really blame that on Rome? 5) Priests can not Forgive...BUT the CAN tell you that GOD forgives you...infact, ANYONE can tell you that GOD will forgive your sins if you appologise to him. The Priest doesnt do the forgiving...but he does have the authority to tell you that GOD will. 6) That was a gross missuse of power by the Roman Church...but nowadays the church doesnt have the power to make it worth selling any supposed remission of sin. You need to ask yourself how powerful Rome is...because I think you find the vast majority of Roman Catholics, technically speaking, do not adhere to Rome, nor do they listen to the Pope.

[Max]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Listen...the Book of Common Prayer was developed as an ANTI-ROMAN bit of Literiture. The ONLY Roman Churches permitted to use the BCP are the FEW Anglican Churches who have a special Apostolic Constitution, have Split with Anglicanism because of Womens Ministry and Gay rights, and have been adopted into the Roman Church. Benedict told them they may keep the BCP...but its ONLY permitted for specific Churches who, less then two years ago would have been Anglican. Outside of that the Roman Church DOES NOT use the Book of Common Prayer, commissioned, developed, and authorized by a MONARCH of ENGLAND following the Reformation

1) Indeed...but they arent sure if they believe that anymore. 2) There is nothing wrong with sprinkling, neither is their anything wrong with annointing with oil, neither is their anything wrong with confirmation, neither is their anything wrong with full immersion. Infant Baptism, whilst fine, is also meaningless in terms of eternity, except as a public demonstration of the parents intentions. 3) Having statues doesnt mean they worship them, neither does Rome promote the worshiping of them...however, it must be said that some Catholics probably do. 4) When you need prayer, why do you ask other people to pray for you? You will see prayer threads over this section. Are we mediators?? In terms of Eternity there is no difference between a living Christian and a Dead Christian, as all are alive in Christ...if you ask me to pray for/with you...why would you not ask ANY Christian period. The idea is not to pray TO Mary, the idea is to ASK Mary to pray FOR You...I dont consult the Saints...but then I generally dont ask anyone to pray for me, as I can pray myself. But I understand the principle of what is trying to be expressed. Now, again I am sure these things get abused...but can you really blame that on Rome? 5) Priests can not Forgive...BUT the CAN tell you that GOD forgives you...infact, ANYONE can tell you that GOD will forgive your sins if you appologise to him. The Priest doesnt do the forgiving...but he does have the authority to tell you that GOD will. 6) That was a gross missuse of power by the Roman Church...but nowadays the church doesnt have the power to make it worth selling any supposed remission of sin. You need to ask yourself how powerful Rome is...because I think you find the vast majority of Roman Catholics, technically speaking, do not adhere to Rome, nor do they listen to the Pope.

Dave

[CAVEMAN1]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Listen...the Book of Common Prayer was developed as an ANTI-ROMAN bit of Literiture. The ONLY Roman Churches permitted to use the BCP are the FEW Anglican Churches who have a special Apostolic Constitution, have Split with Anglicanism because of Womens Ministry and Gay rights, and have been adopted into the Roman Church. Benedict told them they may keep the BCP...but its ONLY permitted for specific Churches who, less then two years ago would have been Anglican. Outside of that the Roman Church DOES NOT use the Book of Common Prayer, commissioned, developed, and authorized by a MONARCH of ENGLAND following the Reformation

1) Indeed...but they arent sure if they believe that anymore. 2There is nothing wrong with sprinkling, neither is their anything wrong with annointing with oil, neither is their anything wrong with confirmation,) neither is their anything wrong with full immersion. Infant Baptism, whilst fine, is also meaningless in terms of eternity, except as a public demonstration of the parents intentions. 3) Having statues doesnt mean they worship them, neither does Rome promote the worshiping of them...however, it must be said that some Catholics probably do. 4) When you need prayer, why do you ask other people to pray for you? You will see prayer threads over this section. Are we mediators?? In terms of Eternity there is no difference between a living Christian and a Dead Christian, as all are alive in Christ...if you ask me to pray for/with you...why would you not ask ANY Christian period. The idea is not to pray TO Mary, the idea is to ASK Mary to pray FOR You...I dont consult the Saints...but then I generally dont ask anyone to pray for me, as I can pray myself. But I understand the principle of what is trying to be expressed. Now, again I am sure these things get abused...but can you really blame that on Rome? 5) Priests can not Forgive...BUT the CAN tell you that GOD forgives you...infact, ANYONE can tell you that GOD will forgive your sins if you appologise to him. The Priest doesnt do the forgiving...but he does have the authority to tell you that GOD will. 6) That was a gross missuse of power by the Roman Church...but nowadays the church doesnt have the power to make it worth selling any supposed remission of sin. You need to ask yourself how powerful Rome is...because I think you find the vast majority of Roman Catholics, technically speaking, do not adhere to Rome, nor do they listen to the Pope.

1) Not sure they believe that anymore????????? I know a lot of Catholics that believe in purgatory!!!! So if the clergy does not believe in it anymore, what do they believe?
2) please feel free to show me in the Bible where sprinkling is biblical........also, confirmation does not equal salvation, although it is taught that way. And before you tell me it's not, I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church and lived like the devil for 10 years, so I know better. My wife who was also confirmed in the Catholic Church was told that she was a Saint and a child of God, but it was not until many years later that she heard the true gospel and came to the saving knowledge of Christ.
3)Then what do they have statues for? My in laws are still practicing Catholics and I can remember not to long ago they were having problems selling their house and were told by clergy to buy a statue of "Saint Something"(cannot remember the name now) and to bury it in their yard and it would help sell their house! Can you say mysticism?
4) Please show me where it is Biblical to pray or even talk to the DEAD? Including MARY!?!?!?!? Also, show me where Mary can even hear your requests???
5) Quotes from the Catechism: A)"Penance is also a sacrament instituted by Our Divine Savior in which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the Priest." B)The priest, as God's representative, can forgive sins because God has given him the power to do so." C) "Our Savior could indeed have decreed that men should receive the Pardon of their sins by going directly to God with contrition. BUT a sacrament, administered by men in the name of God, IS A MORE ASSURING AND A MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS." D) The power to forgive sins by pronouncing these words of absolution is given to the priest at his ordination. In order to exercise this power the priest must have jurisdiction, or be authorized to ACT AS A SPIRITUAL JUDGE OVER THE PERSONS HE ABSOLVES."
E) THE PRIEST FORGIVES SINS WITH THE WORDS: "I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the the Holy Ghost, Amen."
Judging from the above quotes, the priest is doing more than just telling people that God forgives them..............

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by CAVEMAN1

1) Not sure they believe that anymore????????? I know a lot of Catholics that believe in purgatory!!!! So if the clergy does not believe in it anymore, what do they believe?
2) please feel free to show me in the Bible where sprinkling is biblical........also, confirmation does not equal salvation, although it is taught that way. And before you tell me it's not, I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church and lived like the devil for 10 years, so I know better. My wife who was also confirmed in the Catholic Church was told that she was a Saint and a child of God, but it was not until many years later that she heard the true gospel and came to the saving knowledge of Christ.
3)Then what do they have statues for? My in laws are still practicing Catholics and I can remember not to long ago they were having problems selling their house and were told by clergy to buy a statue of "Saint Something"(cannot remember the name now) and to bury it in their yard and it would help sell their house! Can you say mysticism?
4) Please show me where it is Biblical to pray or even talk to the DEAD? Including MARY!?!?!?!? Also, show me where Mary can even hear your requests???
5) Quotes from the Catechism: A)"Penance is also a sacrament instituted by Our Divine Savior in which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the Priest." B)The priest, as God's representative, can forgive sins because God has given him the power to do so." C) "Our Savior could indeed have decreed that men should receive the Pardon of their sins by going directly to God with contrition. BUT a sacrament, administered by men in the name of God, IS A MORE ASSURING AND A MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS." D) The power to forgive sins by pronouncing these words of absolution is given to the priest at his ordination. In order to exercise this power the priest must have jurisdiction, or be authorized to ACT AS A SPIRITUAL JUDGE OVER THE PERSONS HE ABSOLVES."
E) THE PRIEST FORGIVES SINS WITH THE WORDS: "I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the the Holy Ghost, Amen."
Judging from the above quotes, the priest is doing more than just telling people that God forgives them..............

1) No, well thats the Joke of Rome. Each Pontiff can re-write doctrine, its one of the main reasons I could never be Roman Catholic. If All Popes represent an unchanging Christ...how come each successive Pope changes what the last Pope said To me, thats a logical proof that the Assumption of Apostolic Succession is untrue.

2) Please feel free to show me, where its forbidden No Ceremonial can save, so what does it matter whether its oil or sprinkling, or full imersion? The Rite of Baptism doesnt save anyone...no Rite saves. The Rite is simply their as an outward declaration of faith, and the hope that it reflect an inward and completely invisible baptism. Afterall...The Holy Spirit Baptises with Fire...are you suggesting Imolation should be on the agenda that really WOULD be something to behold...but about as mad as the snake handling churches.

3) Statues are Ikons, and Ikons a symbols that point to something. They have statues in the same way you might have stained glass, or bannars, or wear vestments, or dress your altars in coloured linens. I am sure SOME people DO worship statues. But not all. Just like paintings sometimes the Statues have nothing to do with who sees them, and alot to do with the reason why some person might have been moved to sculpt them.

But I dont mind Christian Mysticism. What was suggested to them sounds like an Invokation. They are asking for help, and doing something physical to show that. I tell you that when I move into a new house, I bring round a local Priest and I have him perform a house blessing. Its an Invokation...I ask GOD quite deliberately to enter the house, to clense anything untoward, and to bless the house, to have his host guard and watch over the house and protect it. It is my home, I need to feel safe...and I have been in situations, and shared them on this forum, where evil will come into my home and distress me. I know that there is power in the occult, and power in the spiritual realm, and I also know that GOD is the only method to stave off that sort of attack. You might want to say thats superstition, or mysticism...but if you ever encounter spiritual warfare yourself, believe me, you will never see coincidence again, you will know that the veil between temporal and spiritual is VERY thin...and you will pray for help, however absurd it may sound

Do I believe a Statue will help you sell your house? No. Do I believe that GOD might help you sell your house. Yes. Sometimes he DOES ask...remember what he said to those who were in Israel...he told them to put blood on their doorposts so that when the Host came to kill all the first born egyptions, the Host would know to avoid their dwellings...can you say Mysticism???!

4) The Basis of this is that All are Alive in Christ according to Saint Paul. That would logically include those Saints who have died. The Church is the Body of Christ and its not confined to Earth or the Temporal Realm. This is known as "the community of saints" and is basically reference to EVERY CHRISTIAN PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE...if all are alive in Christ, and one can have "communion" with Christ...then one can have "communion" with all the faithful dead.

There is no "proof" that Mary can hear anyone, and I dont really think she would be terribly concerned...because the one thing that the Romans dont think about is firstly the process of being outside time, and secondly, the concept that those in union with Christ, and already perfected really pay much attention to the living, except to welcome them home on arrival. I am not terribly Marian myself, because I simply dont care for her...I know that sounds really bad, and I have nothing against her, I just dont feel the need to ask anyone who has died for help...why bother?? I ask GOD myself...its quicker, its easier...and im lazy But I understand the doctrine, the mysticism behind it...and it IS biblical that one can commune with dead Christians directly...as in...actually summon them in the way the soothsayers might...Poor Solomon was dragged from the heavens by King Saul I do believe...lets just say he would have much rather have been left alone. GOD forbids the practise...he doesnt say that you CANT do it...he says you SHOULDNT do it.

5) a) The prayer of Absolution doesnt Absolve Sin, it just says GOD absolves Sin...like I said...the Priest cant Absolve...but CAN tell you Absolution has been given by GOD...ANYONE CAN DO THAT.

b) Dont forget at one time they really thought that Priests COULD absolve sin, just like the Church could stop you going to Heaven...again...they dont really know if they believe that now or not...in one sence they have to say it, or they undermine the idea that the Roman Church is THE Church...but Vatican Two pretty much washed all of this sort of shyte away.

c) In the old days the Church used Latin as a Weapon against the illiterate society. These pagen converts made faults...and they wanted to know GOD had forgiven them. So the Priests would utter in latin that they could not understand and then say "yep...you're forgiven" infact for years they wouldnt let anyone receive communion. The whole service took place behind a gigantic curtain, just like in an old style Jewish Temple...the congregation couldnt see the priest, couldnt understand what they were saying, and only knew when the bread and wine were being blessed because the sanctuary bells would ring. That is NOT a Joke...the sanctuary bells still DO ring in Roman Catholic Churches and Anglo-catholic churches during the epiklesis to this day...infact around here, the Churches will even toll their central spire bells three times at the moment of Consecration to inform the outside world that it has occured. So you see how much power this gave to the Roman Church, the power over life and death, the power over eternal damnation or paradise...and the blackmailing of those whose family members died outside of communion with the Pope...and for about one thousand years between the dark and middle ages, they got away with it. Heck they even said if you didnt have a Roman Burrial you wouldnt go to Heaven...thats why the first thing Inocent did when Henry told him to shove it..was to suspend the Funierial rite. You have to ask yourself...did Rome EVER believe they had that power...or did they need to live a lie to hold onto power that they found themselves holding after the collapse of the Roman Empire...I'm betting on the latter...but then I'm a skeptic who doesnt even believe Constentine The Great truely had a conversion. Either way...only in the documents quoted are those beliefs...the Vatican never speaks about any of this stuff anymore publically...except for Allegience to the Pope, and the Urbi et Orbi blessings...outside of this they do not speak about indulgences, they do not speak about purgatory, they do not speak about power over life and death, and they do not speak about the Crusades

Incidently, Germany doesnt speak about Hitler much now either.

d) of course Priests have power to judge. They are called to ordination. Thats not to say they are infallable

e) In whose name did you say...It wasnt their own now, was it

[Tyburn]

Not that any of that has anything whatsoever to do with the ANGLICAN Book of common prayer...which as an Episcopalian...surely you know They are part of the Anglican Communion...they should be using the BCP

[CAVEMAN1]

Regardless of the current view of clergy on the issue of purgatory, there are a lot of people in the church who believe it, you cannot deny that..........no matter how you slice it, the idea of purgatory is heretical and should not be taught.


When it comes to Baptism, there is a big deal between sprinkling and immersion. The English word “baptism” is transliterated from the Greek word baptisma, which signifies dipping or immersion. The baptism Jesus authorized and commanded is precisely what is indicated by the Greek word baptisma: immersion. The book of Acts contains multiple accounts of baptism, and in every instance, the person being baptized was immersed.

Do I believe a Statue will help you sell your house? No. Do I believe that GOD might help you sell your house. Yes. Sometimes he DOES ask...remember what he said to those who were in Israel...he told them to put blood on their doorposts so that when the Host came to kill all the first born egyptions, the Host would know to avoid their dwellings...can you say Mysticism???!

Dave, the Passover had nothing to do with mysticism and everything to do with pointing to the Gospel. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Not sure what your reaching at here??????????? Buying & trusting a statue to sell your house is clearly idol worship and shame on the clergy for promoting such nonsense. Remember GOD will share his glory with no one!

Praying to Mary or even trying to talk to her is vain. The Bible clearly teaches that the living cannot communicate with the dead and vice versa. Many scriptures to back this up. Luke 16: 19-31 being one of them. Your example of Saul contacting the prophet Samuel from the dead does not hold water. Note what Samuel said to Saul in I Sam 28:16 "Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? This was a time in Saul’s life when Samuel the prophet was dead and Saul no longer had a connection with God. Saul had become an enemy of God. The Bible plainly teaches that we should not pray or talk to the dead in any way, shape, or form. It's called divination. Jesus Christ is the only person we should pray to. He is the only one who can intercede for us before the Father! There is no biblical support for any other person that is able to intercede for us. The Hail Mary prayer is HERETICAL!

No matter how you slice it, the idea of Catholic Confession is heretical! Again, the Catholics add some man made tradition of confessing your sins to the priest, when the bible clearly states you can receive forgiveness directly from prayer to the Lord Jesus.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by CAVEMAN1

1)Regardless of the current view of clergy on the issue of purgatory, there are a lot of people in the church who believe it, you cannot deny that..........no matter how you slice it, the idea of purgatory is heretical and should not be taught.


2) When it comes to Baptism, there is a big deal between sprinkling and immersion. The English word “baptism” is transliterated from the Greek word baptisma, which signifies dipping or immersion. The baptism Jesus authorized and commanded is precisely what is indicated by the Greek word baptisma: immersion. The book of Acts contains multiple accounts of baptism, and in every instance, the person being baptized was immersed.



3) Dave, the Passover had nothing to do with mysticism and everything to do with pointing to the Gospel. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Not sure what your reaching at here??????????? Buying & trusting a statue to sell your house is clearly idol worship and shame on the clergy for promoting such nonsense. Remember GOD will share his glory with no one!

4) Praying to Mary or even trying to talk to her is vain. The Bible clearly teaches that the living cannot communicate with the dead and vice versa. Many scriptures to back this up. Luke 16: 19-31 being one of them. Your example of Saul contacting the prophet Samuel from the dead does not hold water. Note what Samuel said to Saul in I Sam 28:16 "Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? This was a time in Saul’s life when Samuel the prophet was dead and Saul no longer had a connection with God. Saul had become an enemy of God. The Bible plainly teaches that we should not pray or talk to the dead in any way, shape, or form. It's called divination. Jesus Christ is the only person we should pray to. He is the only one who can intercede for us before the Father! There is no biblical support for any other person that is able to intercede for us.

5) The Hail Mary prayer is HERETICAL!

6) No matter how you slice it, the idea of Catholic Confession is heretical! Again, the Catholics add some man made tradition of confessing your sins to the priest, when the bible clearly states you can receive forgiveness directly from prayer to the Lord Jesus.

1) thats the issue with Post Vatican Two Rome...there is a Taxonomical Issue now with what do you class as a Roman Catholic. I dont believe Rome has control over half its clergy let alone its flock...soooo one has to ask, just who is teaching what, and who is controlling what is being taught, and what is a Roman Catholic...for example, recently there has been a dialogue between the Vatican and the society of Pius...this is a group that split from Rome during Vatican two...are they the true catholics?? Even they dont have half the medieval Catholic blah...so in the fundemental state, Roman Catholics, TRUE Roman Catholics adhering to the Constantine Era, simply do not exist, not even in the Vatican...what you have now is honnestly nearly as bad as the spectrum in Anglicanism. except the Vatican cant admit that...they are screwed, because if they publically denounce the past, they loooose their power and authority and their purpose for being as a denomination. If they admit that they have no control over their flock, they admit that each Roman Catholic does what they want...some worship Mary, some do not, some believe in purgatory, some do not. Instantly they have lost power and authority also. So the Vatican lives several lies all at the same time.

2) Jesus didnt authorize any Baptism. He was Baptised, and the pauline tradition kept Baptism alive in his name. Jesus authorised Baptism by the Spirit of Fire...that has nothing to do with water, and nothing to do with imersion...everything else is symbolism...which without the power of GOD is absolutely meaningless. Now...I've yet to hear you say that we should all pour gasoline over our heads and ignite ourselves so as to be baptised by fire...which, incidently, some oriental religions will support, though not for baptism...but for peaceful protest.

3) passover has a lot to do with mysticism. You just dont count it as such because it happened on such a large scale that everyone saw...but the first few plagues were recreated by the Eygption Magicians...and then it went off the deep end. Besides...havent you heard that some Statues bleed, and some drink milk

4) it follows logically that its possible. Thats the point. Do I agree with it...I dont really care, as I said before: its not something that I do...but I'll tell you that IF I prayed to any saint, it certainly wouldnt be Mary

5) The Hail Mary reverers Mary...I dont see there is much wrong with that. I just dont feel the need to bother myself. The things attested to her in the prayer are true, although perhaps its a bit overboard to give her silly titles like they do...I mean they arent even accurate...How can she be "Queen of Heaven" when Jesus is King...she isnt his Wife...She's his Mother its just a little pompous...but being British I'm used to that sort of hype and dont give it a second thought.

The Hail Mary isnt even a prayer on its own...its part of a prayer known as "The Angelus" which is a variation on a theme of the Magnificat. Here is my favourite version of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BbncHyw9E (I cant get over her perfect diction and pronunciation of latin, particularly right near the end when she is basically singing a tonguetwister at fast tempo!

6) there is nothing wrong with confession to a priest, confession to your friends, confession to GOD or...confessions to the police There MIGHT be an problem with absolution IF the confessor, or the priest, doesnt remember who really does the absolution. The priest is only a spokes person for GOD...he's a little like a white house correspondant...he can tell you all about what the president will do...but he cant actually do it

Now...I didnt come here to talk about Romanism...I came to tell you that The Book of Common Prayer isnt part of it. Thats all I have to say really

[CAVEMAN1]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

1) thats the issue with Post Vatican Two Rome...there is a Taxonomical Issue now with what do you class as a Roman Catholic. I dont believe Rome has control over half its clergy let alone its flock...soooo one has to ask, just who is teaching what, and who is controlling what is being taught, and what is a Roman Catholic...for example, recently there has been a dialogue between the Vatican and the society of Pius...this is a group that split from Rome during Vatican two...are they the true catholics?? Even they dont have half the medieval Catholic blah...so in the fundemental state, Roman Catholics, TRUE Roman Catholics adhering to the Constantine Era, simply do not exist, not even in the Vatican...what you have now is honnestly nearly as bad as the spectrum in Anglicanism. except the Vatican cant admit that...they are screwed, because if they publically denounce the past, they loooose their power and authority and their purpose for being as a denomination. If they admit that they have no control over their flock, they admit that each Roman Catholic does what they want...some worship Mary, some do not, some believe in purgatory, some do not. Instantly they have lost power and authority also. So the Vatican lives several lies all at the same time.

2) Jesus didnt authorize any Baptism. He was Baptised, and the pauline tradition kept Baptism alive in his name. Jesus authorised Baptism by the Spirit of Fire...that has nothing to do with water, and nothing to do with imersion...everything else is symbolism...which without the power of GOD is absolutely meaningless. Now...I've yet to hear you say that we should all pour gasoline over our heads and ignite ourselves so as to be baptised by fire...which, incidently, some oriental religions will support, though not for baptism...but for peaceful protest.

3) passover has a lot to do with mysticism. You just dont count it as such because it happened on such a large scale that everyone saw...but the first few plagues were recreated by the Eygption Magicians...and then it went off the deep end. Besides...havent you heard that some Statues bleed, and some drink milk

4) it follows logically that its possible. Thats the point. Do I agree with it...I dont really care, as I said before: its not something that I do...but I'll tell you that IF I prayed to any saint, it certainly wouldnt be Mary

5) The Hail Mary reverers Mary...I dont see there is much wrong with that. I just dont feel the need to bother myself. The things attested to her in the prayer are true, although perhaps its a bit overboard to give her silly titles like they do...I mean they arent even accurate...How can she be "Queen of Heaven" when Jesus is King...she isnt his Wife...She's his Mother its just a little pompous...but being British I'm used to that sort of hype and dont give it a second thought.

The Hail Mary isnt even a prayer on its own...its part of a prayer known as "The Angelus" which is a variation on a theme of the Magnificat. Here is my favourite version of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BbncHyw9E (I cant get over her perfect diction and pronunciation of latin, particularly right near the end when she is basically singing a tonguetwister at fast tempo!

6) there is nothing wrong with confession to a priest, confession to your friends, confession to GOD or...confessions to the police There MIGHT be an problem with absolution IF the confessor, or the priest, doesnt remember who really does the absolution. The priest is only a spokes person for GOD...he's a little like a white house correspondant...he can tell you all about what the president will do...but he cant actually do it

Now...I didnt come here to talk about Romanism...I came to tell you that The Book of Common Prayer isnt part of it. Thats all I have to say really

Ok......but does not the Book of Common Prayer and the Catholic Missal contain some of the same prayers? And don't Anglo Catholic Churches use both? I know when I attended the Catholic Church of my in-laws, the Nicene Creed and Holy Eucharist were read out of a book and the translation sounded exactly like the Book Of Common Prayer. But to my knowledge their church is not Anglo Catholic........

[Neezar]

Doesn't the priest make you say, like, 783 Hail Marys before he forgives you?

[flo]

Originally Posted by Neezar

Doesn't the priest make you say, like, 783 Hail Marys before he forgives you?

Plus 951 Our Fathers followed by a pilgrimage to Lourdes.