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  #11  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rockdawg21 View Post
LOL, Floyd made himself into the bad boy image and it's done well for him financially, but it does create other problems; of course, some of the stuff he does, it's like he's either dumb, bored, having fun, or REALLY trying to portray the bad boy image, who knows?

As for Filipinos, there are a lot of them who are jealous of Pac's success. To me, it's really funny that he is the richest person in the Filipino Congress considering he's just a boxer.

In the case of both guys, like Biggie, P. Diddy, and Ma$e say...Mo' Money, Mo' Problems.
The "bad guy image" is one thing, but that doesn't mean reporters like Martin Rogers or Michael Marley should write hit pieces that are misleading and often leave details out. Sure, Floyd doesn't mind wearing the black hat, and it has been one of the primary reasons for his popularity since making the transition from "Pretty Boy" to "Money". However, there is a difference between stating an opinion and blatantly misleading readers or listeners when you are representing a "news" organization.

Now, you will probably hate me for saying this, but I'm gonna say it and then I will explain why it's true.... Manny Pacquiao is only as popular as he is in America because of Floyd Mayweather.

Having Floyd around, and all the talk about them fighting, has made it easy for casual fans to blindly embrace Manny simply out of disdain for Mayweather. It's also made it easy for hot-dog media guys to prop Manny up simply by continuing to feed the masses the anti-Floyd nonsense that they love so much. Of course, it goes both ways and Floyd has benefited from Manny too, but not nearly as much as Manny has gained from having Floyd. Even before the fight with De La Hoya, Floyd was making a name for himself and people were taking notice. That bad-guy image is what gets people's attention, just ask Chael Sonnen. If Floyd never had Manny, it would have probably just been another guy that filled Pac's place as "the guy people want to see beat Floyd". Even if nobody actually filled that role, Floyd would still be a popular figure just because of how polarizing he is as an individual and because of how uniquely talented he is as a boxer. There is also that giant goose-egg in his loss column, and even though hardcore boxing fans are more analytical when it comes to records, a lot of casual fans hold that in high regard. To this day people still talk about Rocky Marciano for that very reason.

Now, I'm not trying to take anything away from Pacquiao's accomplishments as a boxer, not at all. Manny is definitely one of the all time greats. However, I don't think he would have nearly as many fans in America as he does today without this saga with Mayweather. Keep in mind, I'm only saying here in America. I realize how popular he is in the Philippines, but I don't think what he's done over the last 3-5 years would have resonated with American fans as much if there wasn't a Floyd Mayweather, or more importantly any American in general, out there being "the bad guy" who has never lost a fight.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:28 PM
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The "bad guy image" is one thing, but that doesn't mean reporters like Martin Rogers or Michael Marley should write hit pieces that are misleading and often leave details out. Sure, Floyd doesn't mind wearing the black hat, and it has been one of the primary reasons for his popularity since making the transition from "Pretty Boy" to "Money". However, there is a difference between stating an opinion and blatantly misleading readers or listeners when you are representing a "news" organization.

Now, you will probably hate me for saying this, but I'm gonna say it and then I will explain why it's true.... Manny Pacquiao is only as popular as he is in America because of Floyd Mayweather.

Having Floyd around, and all the talk about them fighting, has made it easy for casual fans to blindly embrace Manny simply out of disdain for Mayweather. It's also made it easy for hot-dog media guys to prop Manny up simply by continuing to feed the masses the anti-Floyd nonsense that they love so much. Of course, it goes both ways and Floyd has benefited from Manny too, but not nearly as much as Manny has gained from having Floyd. Even before the fight with De La Hoya, Floyd was making a name for himself and people were taking notice. That bad-guy image is what gets people's attention, just ask Chael Sonnen. If Floyd never had Manny, it would have probably just been another guy that filled Pac's place as "the guy people want to see beat Floyd". Even if nobody actually filled that role, Floyd would still be a popular figure just because of how polarizing he is as an individual and because of how uniquely talented he is as a boxer. There is also that giant goose-egg in his loss column, and even though hardcore boxing fans are more analytical when it comes to records, a lot of casual fans hold that in high regard. To this day people still talk about Rocky Marciano for that very reason.

Now, I'm not trying to take anything away from Pacquiao's accomplishments as a boxer, not at all. Manny is definitely one of the all time greats. However, I don't think he would have nearly as many fans in America as he does today without this saga with Mayweather. Keep in mind, I'm only saying here in America. I realize how popular he is in the Philippines, but I don't think what he's done over the last 3-5 years would have resonated with American fans as much if there wasn't a Floyd Mayweather, or more importantly any American in general, out there being "the bad guy" who has never lost a fight.


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  #13  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:27 AM
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No it all makes sense. Both guys experienced a huge surge in popularity thanks to each persons' fight with DLH, a passing of the torch if you will. Mayweather was benefiting from his arguments with Merchant and Manny for his wars with the great Mexican fighters of this era. It was good they both fought DLH and had their much deserved rise.

But, just like Mayweather, Pacquiao was also making a name for himself prior to fighting DLH as his 2nd fight with Marquez broke a record for the highest PPV buys at a weight lower than welterweight at 400,000 (it has since been surpassed as his junior welterweight fight with Hatton garnered 850,000, but that was after he fought DLH). Mayweather's highest total prior to fighting DLH was 375,000 against Judah @ WW. Both guys had pretty comparable numbers prior to the DLH fight and are about equal today with the big exception being the record-breaking sale of the DLH bout with Floyd (surprisingly, Pac's last 3 fights have a higher total than Mayweather's last 3 fights 3,900,000 to 3,700,000 and they have 2 of the same fighters in Marquez and Mosley, so Pac's stock is rising).

You might like this, I actually did a calculation of PPV averages for both fighters prior to the DLH fight and after the DLH fight to see what would be a fair split for the fight. Mayweather's average is a little higher and when you do a total of both fighters' averages, then cross multiply and divide each fighter, you get Mayweather with 55% and Pacquiao with 45%. That should actually be their purse split if they want to fight, 70/30 is pretty outrageous. This calculation only shows the fights with DLH and after for each fighter, but it isn't much different (I think 57/43) when you include their fights prior to DLH in the averages. Anyways, here's the Excel spreadsheet, just unzip it:

www.matt-hughes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256&stc=1&d=1332136392

Both guys feed great off each other, it's good for the sport. Kinda like how Ali needed Frazier and vice versa; but these guys are really running out of options after these next set of fights, so I just hope us fans are able to get what we want and deserve.
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  #14  
Old 03-19-2012, 07:05 AM
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Oh, and there was a pro-Mayweather Filipina (how that is, I don't know ) on the Philboxing.com forum who suggested checking against their common opponents, which is a good idea. Here are her calculations:

Quote:
70-30, an obvious negotiation tactic, seems to be reasonable afterall.

lets see their numbers on their common opponents: delahoya, hatton, mosley, marquez

5770000 for mayweather
4850000 for pacquiao

thats 45.67% for pacquiao
and 54.33% for mayweather
So, that's still 55/45 in favor of Mayweather. I won't argue that, but I still argue that 70/30 is unreasonable.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rockdawg21 View Post
No it all makes sense. Both guys experienced a huge surge in popularity thanks to each persons' fight with DLH, a passing of the torch if you will. Mayweather was benefiting from his arguments with Merchant and Manny for his wars with the great Mexican fighters of this era. It was good they both fought DLH and had their much deserved rise.

But, just like Mayweather, Pacquiao was also making a name for himself prior to fighting DLH as his 2nd fight with Marquez broke a record for the highest PPV buys at a weight lower than welterweight at 400,000 (it has since been surpassed as his junior welterweight fight with Hatton garnered 850,000, but that was after he fought DLH). Mayweather's highest total prior to fighting DLH was 375,000 against Judah @ WW. Both guys had pretty comparable numbers prior to the DLH fight and are about equal today with the big exception being the record-breaking sale of the DLH bout with Floyd (surprisingly, Pac's last 3 fights have a higher total than Mayweather's last 3 fights 3,900,000 to 3,700,000 and they have 2 of the same fighters in Marquez and Mosley, so Pac's stock is rising).

You might like this, I actually did a calculation of PPV averages for both fighters prior to the DLH fight and after the DLH fight to see what would be a fair split for the fight. Mayweather's average is a little higher and when you do a total of both fighters' averages, then cross multiply and divide each fighter, you get Mayweather with 55% and Pacquiao with 45%. That should actually be their purse split if they want to fight, 70/30 is pretty outrageous. This calculation only shows the fights with DLH and after for each fighter, but it isn't much different (I think 57/43) when you include their fights prior to DLH in the averages. Anyways, here's the Excel spreadsheet, just unzip it:

www.matt-hughes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256&stc=1&d=1332136392

Both guys feed great off each other, it's good for the sport. Kinda like how Ali needed Frazier and vice versa; but these guys are really running out of options after these next set of fights, so I just hope us fans are able to get what we want and deserve.
I love your last part about Ali/Frazier, but please brother, don't make this a baseball type of argument where all we talk about is numbers. I appreciate what you are saying, and it is relevant in terms of PPV sales, but it doesn't really entirely speak to my point about Pacquiao's popularity in America just because of Floyd's existence. Actually, you make my point for me when you even mention Ali/Frazier. Nobody would know who Smokin Joe was if it wasn't for Muhammad Ali.

You are throwing 70/30 around because of various reports, and also trying to compare similar opponents PPV numbers, but you fail to mention some of the other parts of boxing...such as; how you actually looked in your last few fights...or what your record looks like. Let's face it. Pacquiao hasn't looked that hot in his last few fights, and when people jumped on his bandwagon it was only because he was beating people Floyd already beat.

Even if the number Floyd threw out WAS 70/30, it would still be more money than Pac has ever made with Arum, and more money than he will ever make fighting anybody else ever! I actually wish for a 50/50 split, just so this fight MAY happen...but let's not act like it's crazy to say Floyd deserves more. Heck, you even said that yourself.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:38 PM
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LOL, ok, well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe. Both guys can attribute their rapid rise in star power thanks to DLH. I attribute more of Pac's increase in star power to DLH and his fight with Cotto rather than the talk with Floyd and people began following Pac simply because he's extremely exciting to watch; that's what drew me in the first time I saw him fight (against Ledwaba). Is the talk about him matching with Floyd relevant to Pac's success? Yes, but if it weren't about Floyd, it'd be somebody else (just as you said if it weren't for Floyd, it'd be somebody else other than Pac trying to chase him), it is reciprocal.

And no, based on everything, Floyd deserves more, I admit that, but 70/30, certainly not.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:40 PM
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LOL, ok, well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe. Both guys can attribute their rapid rise in star power thanks to DLH. I attribute more of Pac's increase in star power to DLH and his fight with Cotto rather than the talk with Floyd and people began following Pac simply because he's extremely exciting to watch; that's what drew me in the first time I saw him fight (against Ledwaba). Is the talk about him matching with Floyd relevant to Pac's success? Yes, but if it weren't about Floyd, it'd be somebody else (just as you said if it weren't for Floyd, it'd be somebody else other than Pac trying to chase him), it is reciprocal.

And no, based on everything, Floyd deserves more, I admit that, but 70/30, certainly not.
Just wanna say first off...you know I'm not trying to come at you or be a mindless hater. I actually love these debates/discussions about boxing with you. I'm a fan of Mayweather, but I'm a fan of Manny too and more than anything I am just a fan of boxing. Now, down to business...

You say both guys can attribute their rise to DLH, but there is a reason that Floyd vs Oscar was the biggest PPV ever and it wasn't just because of DLH. It wasn't until AFTER Pac beat Oscar that Americans REALLY started caring about Manny. The fact that he is "exciting" is secondary. Being a high volume puncher may excite the fans, but you gotta look good doing it, and he hasn't done that as much in his last few fights (especially against Marquez).

I don't doubt that if Floyd didn't exist Pac would still be Pac in terms of boxing. What I said was, I don't think American fans would care nearly as much. Of course, that doesn't apply to people like you and me who actually follow boxing closely. However, it does apply to the casual American fan. I agree that both guys have benefited from each other, which I said originally, but I think that Floyd's image has made this whole saga what it is. I love Manny, I really do, but it's not like his character is nearly as exciting as his style of boxing. Honestly, how often do you check the boxing news thinking to yourself "I wonder what crazy thing Manny said today...?

I don't think Manny should give Floyd 70/30, and I have gone on record as saying I think Floyd needs to make this 50/50 if he wants to see this fight happen sooner than later. However, even if the split was 70/30 it would still be more money than Pac has ever made under Arum. In boxing, that says a lot.

Let's not forget, Bob Arum is an important piece to this puzzle. Arum is a big part of the reason that both of these guys have the exposure that they do, but he's also part of the problem in terms of Pac's leverage in negotiating. I truly believe that if Pac left Top Rank this fight would be made in a week or two.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:53 PM
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Just wanna say first off...you know I'm not trying to come at you or be a mindless hater. I actually love these debates/discussions about boxing with you. I'm a fan of Mayweather, but I'm a fan of Manny too and more than anything I am just a fan of boxing. Now, down to business...

You say both guys can attribute their rise to DLH, but there is a reason that Floyd vs Oscar was the biggest PPV ever and it wasn't just because of DLH. It wasn't until AFTER Pac beat Oscar that Americans REALLY started caring about Manny. The fact that he is "exciting" is secondary. Being a high volume puncher may excite the fans, but you gotta look good doing it, and he hasn't done that as much in his last few fights (especially against Marquez).

I don't doubt that if Floyd didn't exist Pac would still be Pac in terms of boxing. What I said was, I don't think American fans would care nearly as much. Of course, that doesn't apply to people like you and me who actually follow boxing closely. However, it does apply to the casual American fan. I agree that both guys have benefited from each other, which I said originally, but I think that Floyd's image has made this whole saga what it is. I love Manny, I really do, but it's not like his character is nearly as exciting as his style of boxing. Honestly, how often do you check the boxing news thinking to yourself "I wonder what crazy thing Manny said today...?

I don't think Manny should give Floyd 70/30, and I have gone on record as saying I think Floyd needs to make this 50/50 if he wants to see this fight happen sooner than later. However, even if the split was 70/30 it would still be more money than Pac has ever made under Arum. In boxing, that says a lot.

Let's not forget, Bob Arum is an important piece to this puzzle. Arum is a big part of the reason that both of these guys have the exposure that they do, but he's also part of the problem in terms of Pac's leverage in negotiating. I truly believe that if Pac left Top Rank this fight would be made in a week or two.
All good points. It may be hard for me to see that outside perspective because I am a fan of boxing in general, I rarely even miss Friday Night Fights regardless of who is fighting.

Anyways, I still think Pac would be as big a star just based on how exciting his fighting style is even though he is not an American. He certainly received a lot of exposure from his fight with DLH where he was definitely an offensive monster and same with his fight with Cotto, who was at the time, arguably a bigger PPV star than Pac (I'd have to check Cotto's #s but we all know he is the current #3 so he has drawing power). Plus, being here in San Antonio, I see plenty of Mexicans out when I would go to the fight and all I ever heard from any of them was complete respect for Pacquiao and we all know they are big buying market in terms of PPV fights. Whether or not they would buy Pac vs. a non-Mexican fighter, I don't know, but it adds to the mix. That's actually one of the things I use in my sales, especially when meeting with Mexican men, I talk to them about boxing, it works every time!

Arum sucks, I hope Pac leaves him, but he probably won't. I think that's a lot to do with why Mayweather priced himself out of the fight - he doesn't want to do any favors for Arum, but really it just hurts his own pocketbook and the sport in general IMO. It'd be a shame if we don't actually get to see these guys square off
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