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  #71  
Old 12-30-2011, 04:33 PM
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I'm only resurrecting this to answer one false argument which states that, if GOD chooses who is to be saved, then GOD also chooses who goes to Hell. The Bible most definitely does not teach that. However, you can easily refute it with 3 simple questions:
The real Question you should ask yourself is. WHY did GOD make man at all?

Tell me Nathan...Do you Love the Lord?

Are you a Servant...or a slave?

If you are a Slave you do what you do because you HAVE to. That is duty and not Love.

But most of all...How can you say that GOD ellects people when GOD clearly tells you that he "desireth not the death of any sinner" but that all will "choose life" Thats even in books of The Law!

GOD can not fail. So...do you on the basis of that advocate Universalism
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:48 PM
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The real Question you should ask yourself is. WHY did GOD make man at all?

Tell me Nathan...Do you Love the Lord?

Are you a Servant...or a slave?

If you are a Slave you do what you do because you HAVE to. That is duty and not Love.

But most of all...How can you say that GOD ellects people when GOD clearly tells you that he "desireth not the death of any sinner" but that all will "choose life" Thats even in books of The Law!

GOD can not fail. So...do you on the basis of that advocate Universalism
If we were slaves, there never would have been the Fall. If we were slaves, there would be no need to salvation. If we were slaves, there would be no need to the Gospel.

God is the ultimate gentleman, Dave: He will never force Himself upon us. If we choose to live in sin & flee from Him, He won't force us to spend eternity with us. However, He has pre-ordained that some of us will hear the call of his irresistible Grace & run into His arms.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:11 PM
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If we were slaves, there never would have been the Fall. If we were slaves, there would be no need to salvation. If we were slaves, there would be no need to the Gospel.

God is the ultimate gentleman, Dave: He will never force Himself upon us. If we choose to live in sin & flee from Him, He won't force us to spend eternity with us. However, He has pre-ordained that some of us will hear the call of his irresistible Grace & run into His arms.
But thats just it, if he pre-ordained who he will save then we are not choosing anything.
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  #74  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:12 PM
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If we were slaves, there never would have been the Fall. If we were slaves, there would be no need to salvation. If we were slaves, there would be no need to the Gospel.

God is the ultimate gentleman, Dave: He will never force Himself upon us. If we choose to live in sin & flee from Him, He won't force us to spend eternity with us. However, He has pre-ordained that some of us will hear the call of his irresistible Grace & run into His arms.
Listen to your Contradiction.

1) He will never force himself upon us.....he has pre-ordained

2) that some of us will hear the call....Desireth not the death of ANY sinner

IF he pre-ordains, then it is for everyone because he has said he wishes no one to die...but if that is the case, then noone loves him because they have been pre-programmed to obay.

You cant have it both ways.

Either he is a Gentleman looking and hopefilled that we will return his love, and giving us the option to spend eternity with him via huge personal cost to himself

OR

He is a GOD who has made a set of robotic images, some programmed to do his will, some programmed to disobay. Thus he accepts the ones he wants, and wastes his time making, and then discarding the ones he doesnt.

OR

He is a GOD who has pre-programmed ALL creation for his own, because he desireth the death of no sinner, and has the means to make that happen. Jesus Christs magnificence on the cross is just a show of legitamacy, rather then an offered gift...its simply a blanket covering all, exactly as the Law covered all. Thus all are saved, thus Universalism.

I Reject Calvinism because it protrays a loveless GOD...a GOD who has created for nil, and who doesnt care for half of his creation. who speaks of love, when he has pre-destined...and thus he is also boardering on being decietful. We can not love, we are trapped, and our purpose is nothing but fate created by Him for his own pleasure.

I reject Universalism, because it portrays a Judgeless GOD...a GOD who made huge claims about his holiness, and his Law...and then changed his mind, and basically just implemented Jesus Christ instead...and suddenly Grace is so abundant that it is neither Justice, nor Liberty.

He said he desireth the death of no sinner...and that we are to actively choose life so that we may live. That verse, from Deuteronmy is THE MOST important Verse for me in my personal walk with Christ outside of the Psalms.

Why? Because I rejected him when my Grandfather died...and because that same passage haunted me non stop for the best part of the following year. Everyone...unconnected people would say it to me...one woman was even sent to sit infront of me in Church with the verse on her back.

That wasnt pre-destiny...that was GOD doing his best to convince me. You dont convince someone if you have pre-programmed them to do your bidding. I am so far away sometimes from being Holy, that unless GOD is truely bad at the art of predestiny...I have more choice then is wise to give someone in my situation.

Trust me...nothing would make me more happy, then to think GOD will just sort it all out for me...that I am simply pre-destined. I love rules, and Structure...I love Duty more then I care to speak about.. I do not believe that GOD works like that....and not because he cant...but because he doesnt want my Duty.

GOD has angelic host....what would he need my duty for? Perhaps this is really simple. Perhaps at the end of the day...all GOD wants is for people to Love him...not because he made them, but simply because they want to. Think of it from his perspective...He feels...He hurts, he is joyful....and he wants aswell. He has desires and he has plans and he has goals. He has wishes and a value system. He wants Love. He wants our love. That is the whole key to the scripture. Be holy, for I am Holy, Repent for the Kingdom of GOD is near, love your neighbour as yourself....Calvinism is a bit of dogmatic church tradition based on a puritanical view of GOD....It is in my view, as bad as the fire and brimstone portrayal that the pentecostals use to try and frighten converts into faith.

My...how the Church has ruined what was so increadibly simple...by adding piles of its own clauses...its disheartening.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:43 PM
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This is what happens when man allows himself to build his or her doctrine from beliefs created by another man. This is the work of John Calvin not Jesus Christ. John Calvin was the only one who taught this way. Some of his followers perpetuated it and today we have Reformed theology because of it. The bible is clear we have free will. God is sovereign and already knows who will accept and reject him. But never does he choose some and not choose others to give that "irresistible call of grace" That would make God a respectoer of persons and the bible a lie.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:55 PM
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This is what happens when man allows himself to build his or her doctrine from beliefs created by another man. This is the work of John Calvin not Jesus Christ. John Calvin was the only one who taught this way. Some of his followers perpetuated it and today we have Reformed theology because of it. The bible is clear we have free will. God is sovereign and already knows who will accept and reject him. But never does he choose some and not choose others to give that "irresistible call of grace" That would make God a respectoer of persons and the bible a lie.
See I dont know much about Calvin...but I bet he was influenced by Puritans...They are like a forgotten denomination of Christondom...something akin to early congregationalists...THEY were the original counter current to the Reformation.

They basically disowned Anglicanism saying it was just as bad at Catholicism, and they were not pleasent to Presbyterians either. The very term is now used in a derogatry term...especially in England, because it was imposed on everyone During The Republic, by The Protectorate.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:40 PM
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See I dont know much about Calvin...but I bet he was influenced by Puritans...They are like a forgotten denomination of Christondom...something akin to early congregationalists...THEY were the original counter current to the Reformation.

They basically disowned Anglicanism saying it was just as bad at Catholicism, and they were not pleasent to Presbyterians either. The very term is now used in a derogatry term...especially in England, because it was imposed on everyone During The Republic, by The Protectorate.
Tyburn, it might be best to just delete this post as it has too many errors to correct.

Calvin predated the Puritans. Their theology was influenced by him - not the other way around.

Puritanism was a movement, not a denomination.

Early Congregationalists were Calvinists . . . as were Presbyterians . . . as were some Anglicans.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:40 PM
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See I dont know much about Calvin...but I bet he was influenced by Puritans...They are like a forgotten denomination of Christondom...something akin to early congregationalists...THEY were the original counter current to the Reformation.

They basically disowned Anglicanism saying it was just as bad at Catholicism, and they were not pleasent to Presbyterians either. The very term is now used in a derogatry term...especially in England, because it was imposed on everyone During The Republic, by The Protectorate.
He was long before the puritans. The puritans were Calvinist. John Calvin was a contemporary of Martin Luther. While Luther was the primary reformer in Germany. Calvin was doing so in France and later Switzerland. His Theology was night and day from the other reformers like Luther and Zwingli. He was deeply influenced by Augustine and his entire doctrine on predestination is a minor tweak from Augustinian traditions. This battle has been raging since the 1500's And is why we have so many Protestant denominations today. Each Reformer had their own flavor and thus we have the mess we have today.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:12 PM
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Tyburn, it might be best to just delete this post as it has too many errors to correct.

Calvin predated the Puritans. Their theology was influenced by him - not the other way around.

Puritanism was a movement, not a denomination.

Early Congregationalists were Calvinists . . . as were Presbyterians . . . as were some Anglicans.
never mind who begat who...the point is...they are of the same family tree.

Trust me...Purtianism was a Denomination...it became one as soon as it was forced upon an unwilling population...yes...even if it began as merely freedom of expression away from an establishment.

The whole Cromwellian idiosyncrasy is that all he managed to do was become the very thing he absolutely detested.

I didnt realize Calvin was quite THAT old though...like I said...I dont care
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:30 PM
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This battle has been raging since the 1500's And is why we have so many Protestant denominations today. Each Reformer had their own flavor and thus we have the mess we have today.
Puritanism was a 1500s thing also

I dont know when it reached your shores...but it was at a Height in England ONE CENTURY before your Independance. and began to be expressed in England around a century before that we are talking the 1540s here.

Let me explain. In England, King Henry Broke from the Church in Rome. Mary reversed the ballence to Catholicism, and then Elizabeth once and for all destroyed Rome in England. As soon as she had done that, the Reformation as far as Anglicanism is concerned was over. BUT Queen Elizabeth demanded that Faith be a personal thing...this gave rise in the late 1500s to thoughts that really one could worship GOD however they so chose.

By 1630 you had Presbyterians, as an established group to rival Anglicanism, and both groups wanted to be the State Religion. Presbyterians appeared to include the batch of people who believed that freedom of expression was important. The first part of the Civil War in England was Presbyterians Vs Church of England...all the Church of England peeps were Royalists, all the Presbyterians are Parliamentarians.

Once the King had been made to see the error of his ways by the Presbyterians, that little group of people who believed in Freedom to practise non denominational Christianity suddenly went mad. They wouldnt settle for peace. The second part of the Civil War was Presbyterian Vs Presbyterian. One would abide by a constitutional Monarchy so long as they could be State Religion.,..the other side not only wanted freedom of Christianity, they wanted not only a disestablished church..they wanted the end of the Monarchy altogether, and the instigation of a Republic.

They won, but the Republic was...not puritanical enough for the Military Elite. So the Republic collapsed, and the Puritans reigned supreme. Monarchy Hating, Land Conqurering, Imposition of Puritanical principles by way of a nasty type of Martial Law...its maybe the only time in the countries history that alcohol and gambling were technically illegal...as well as swearing...they banned swearing....thats how puritanical they will. Then in 1660 the Military Dictator died...and the lower ranks of the army terned on its new leadership...

...and they were in such a pickle...they went back to the King, Back to the Church of England...and whilst presbyterianism persisted...Puritans...well...me thinks that was quite the end of that
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