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Old 12-20-2011, 02:59 PM
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Default Dean Hoped Nogueira Would Submit Before Arm Broke

From Sherdog.com:

Quote:
Referee Herb Dean knew Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was in serious trouble.

Frank Mir had locked up a deep kimura during their bout Saturday at UFC 140, but Nogueira would not submit. Mir kept cranking, and Nogueira’s arm began to climb up his own back.

“In my mind, I was hoping that he would tap,” Dean told the Sherdog Radio Network’s “It’s Time!” show with Bruce Buffer. “Like, ‘Please, please make this easy for me. That looks like it’s on.’ I definitely [had a] heightened awareness at that time. I was really focused on that arm. But that’s how Antonio became who he is -- he didn’t get there by giving up. That guy's done things that everyone thought was impossible time and time again because he never gives up.”

Technically Nogueira did tap, but that was after his humerus had already snapped.

“I stopped it because I saw the arm break,” Dean said. “The tap came after. I don’t stop it when I believe it’s locked on or even if I believe the guy’s in jeopardy because I don’t know what that person can take. I don’t know what their limits are, but if I see an injury that is too dangerous for the fight to continue, that’s when I’m going to stop the fight. Or if I see the fighter tap.”

It can be a tough situation for a referee when a fighter’s caught in a submission like Nogueira was. Dean explained that with professionals, it’s not his job to intervene when he thinks something could break. In amateur fights, though, the game is a little different.

“In amateurs we talk about stopping it before, and I’m not even sure how I feel about that exactly,” he said. “In amateurs we do stop them a little bit before we believe it’s totally locked out. At the end of the day, I don’t know when it’s going to break. I don’t know what that guy can take. So for a professional fight, that’s part of being a professional fighter is knowing how to look after yourself and knowing what you can and can’t take and knowing when it’s time to tap.”

Sometimes fighters submit too late, though. Dean has seen his share of injuries, and not everyone handles it like Nogueira did. He was in the cage once with a fighter who kept screaming in agony after having his arm dislocated, but Nogueira did the opposite.

“He was very calm,” Dean said. “He’s an exceptional person. Even during that, with coordinating with the physicians and him getting out of there, at some point he started taking an active role. ‘OK, Herb, I want you to help me up.’ He was pretty calm through it.”
I dunno how I really feel about this. I mean, I get where he's coming from with "I don't know how much you can take", but I feel like it's the ref's job to protect a fighter from himself, ya know?
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:15 PM
adamt adamt is offline
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
From Sherdog.com:



I dunno how I really feel about this. I mean, I get where he's coming from with "I don't know how much you can take", but I feel like it's the ref's job to protect a fighter from himself, ya know?
i know how i feel, i think dean is right on the money, it is not his business to tap out a professional fighter during a big live pay per view. especially nog, he did just the right thing, nog could have got out and won the fight, and many times fighters have made awesome comebacks like that, remember when bob sapp powerbombed him on his head? what if they called it over then? i think we would be having a lot more heated debate if he stopped the fight without nog tapping out or being injured



and i also disagree with the notion that it is the refs job to protect the fighter from himself, if that were true they couldn't even let people fight, no it's their job to stop a fighter when he can no longer win, the fighters sign up to get beat up and they have the money, fame and glory to go along with it
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:36 PM
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i am with dean on this .. look at the gsp hardy fight .. gsp had that arm in bad shape ... it was bent both with the arm bar and kimura ... hardy was able to get out of it and go the distance .. ok, i know that is only one example .. also, the ref is there to protect the fighters, but if your pride gets in the way and you get your arm snapped, there is no one to blame but the fighter ... plus, if he did stop it before, you would have all the nog nut huggers saying it was a bad stoppage, nog didn't tap, nog woulda got out of it ... good job by dean
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by adamt View Post
i know how i feel, i think dean is right on the money, it is not his business to tap out a professional fighter during a big live pay per view. especially nog, he did just the right thing, nog could have got out and won the fight, and many times fighters have made awesome comebacks like that, remember when bob sapp powerbombed him on his head? what if they called it over then? i think we would be having a lot more heated debate if he stopped the fight without nog tapping out or being injured



and i also disagree with the notion that it is the refs job to protect the fighter from himself, if that were true they couldn't even let people fight, no it's their job to stop a fighter when he can no longer win, the fighters sign up to get beat up and they have the money, fame and glory to go along with it
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:23 PM
F34R F34R is offline
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Agree with Dean 100%.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
i am with dean on this .. look at the gsp hardy fight .. gsp had that arm in bad shape ... it was bent both with the arm bar and kimura ... hardy was able to get out of it and go the distance .. ok, i know that is only one example .. also, the ref is there to protect the fighters, but if your pride gets in the way and you get your arm snapped, there is no one to blame but the fighter ... plus, if he did stop it before, you would have all the nog nut huggers saying it was a bad stoppage, nog didn't tap, nog woulda got out of it ... good job by dean
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. The night of the fights, when my buddy's wife got upset at Mir for "being a jerk about it", I placed the blame wholly on Nog's shoulders (he's a black belt, he knew he was done). But when I heard/read Herb phrase the way he did, it sounded as though he was well aware that the arm was going to snap & he was just waiting to see if it would. To me, it seems as though the stoppage recquirements for a TKO should be applied to a sub: intelligent defense. In Nog's case, he was laying there, looking over at his arm, waiting for the break.

I'm certainly not saying that a ref is obligated to step in the moment a fighter's arm gets stretched out or neck gets wrapped, but there should be the same type of communcation: "Nog, you gotta work out of that or I'm stop it. Fight back! BREAK BREAK BREAK!" Wait, that's what happened anyway...
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:14 PM
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I side with Dean. That was Big Nog's fault.
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