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  #11  
Old 08-26-2011, 05:43 AM
huan
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this is a great topic, one of the paradoxes for us as believers for sure. is free will in the Bible? I believe that it is.

In Numbers 20, when Moses and Israelites were in the desert and out of water, God commanded Moses to speak to a rock before the assembly of Israelites and said that water would pour out from it. When he didn't quite follow that instruction and struck the rock out of anger, Moses was denied the ability to enter the promise land; he would only see it.

it's pretty clear that Moses was not predestined to screw up, he was given a choice.

in 2 Chronicles 32 when Hezekiah was going to die, he prayed to God to live longer, God granted his wish.

there are numerous examples of free will throughout scripture. without the opportunity to screw up, and screw up permanently what need to we have for redemption through Christ?

I've heard it said like this, no one will be in hell for their sins, they'll be in hell for rejecting the provision God has made for their sins.

man's sovereignty is a gift from God, the best thing we can do with that gift is to give it straight back to the one who gave it to us.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2011, 06:34 AM
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this is a great topic, one of the paradoxes for us as believers for sure. is free will in the Bible? I believe that it is.

In Numbers 20, when Moses and Israelites were in the desert and out of water, God commanded Moses to speak to a rock before the assembly of Israelites and said that water would pour out from it. When he didn't quite follow that instruction and struck the rock out of anger, Moses was denied the ability to enter the promise land; he would only see it.

it's pretty clear that Moses was not predestined to screw up, he was given a choice.

in 2 Chronicles 32 when Hezekiah was going to die, he prayed to God to live longer, God granted his wish.

there are numerous examples of free will throughout scripture. without the opportunity to screw up, and screw up permanently what need to we have for redemption through Christ?

I've heard it said like this, no one will be in hell for their sins, they'll be in hell for rejecting the provision God has made for their sins.

man's sovereignty is a gift from God, the best thing we can do with that gift is to give it straight back to the one who gave it to us.
Are you saying that GOD didn't know that Moses would strike the rock out of anger until he did it? I don't agree with that at all. GOD knew that it would happen and Moses being "locked out" of the Promised Land because of that sin was preordained from before the beginning of time. The same with Hezekiah's prayer. GOD knew Hezekiah would make that prayer before He even created the universe and He preordained that he would grant that request.

I do believe that we have the ability to choose whether to follow GOD or not, however, many people seem to want to make human free will sovereign and GOD a subject of our decisions.

Do we have the ability to choose GOD of our own free will? Yes.

Does GOD choose who will follow Him? Yes.

Is this a paradox? Yes.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2011, 06:50 AM
huan
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Are you saying that GOD didn't know that Moses would strike the rock out of anger until he did it? I don't agree with that at all. GOD knew that it would happen and Moses being "locked out" of the Promised Land because of that sin was preordained from before the beginning of time. The same with Hezekiah's prayer. GOD knew Hezekiah would make that prayer before He even created the universe and He preordained that he would grant that request.

I do believe that we have the ability to choose whether to follow GOD or not, however, many people seem to want to make human free will sovereign and GOD a subject of our decisions.

Do we have the ability to choose GOD of our own free will? Yes.

Does GOD choose who will follow Him? Yes.

Is this a paradox? Yes.
Of course God knew Moses would strike the rock. Part of the convenience of having created and being removed from time... God still gave him the choice.

It's a very slippery slope to argue that God preordained acts of sin. In the same way, I believe that the choice to love God is ours, being able to make that choice is a gift. He cannot and will not force us to do so. It's extremely humbling. Like I said, God in his infinite wisdom clearly knows what is best for us, so the best choice we can make is to place that gift right back in His hands.

I agree with everything you said otherwise.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2011, 07:05 AM
Chris F
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Yeah guys well we have went back and forth on this subject for many years and there is no way anyone will convince me Calvinism is biblical. Man must have free will or Christ died in vain. They cannot have their cake and eat it to. For predestination and grace to be irresistible there has to be the counter and that is God made some for hell. They cannot have it both ways. JOhn and many other reformed theologians try to justify it but biblically they are wrong and have no support. Most of the time they quote their confessions because they are the proof text for their beliefs. But Biblically speaking they have no leg to stand on. So we will need to agree to disagree.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2011, 07:17 AM
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Yeah guys well we have went back and forth on this subject for many years and there is no way anyone will convince me Calvinism is biblical. Man must have free will or Christ died in vain. They cannot have their cake and eat it to. For predestination and grace to be irresistible there has to be the counter and that is God made some for hell. They cannot have it both ways. JOhn and many other reformed theologians try to justify it but biblically they are wrong and have no support. Most of the time they quote their confessions because they are the proof text for their beliefs. But Biblically speaking they have no leg to stand on. So we will need to agree to disagree.
I never heard the term "Calvinism" before I started attending a Presbyterian Church in 2006. I was raised Baptist and have had to study Calvinism from that background. However, I find that the more I study Calvinism, the more I agree with it. So, I guess I am becoming a Calvinist because I see how perfectly it lines up with the Bible.

I couldn't disagree more that Divine Election means that GOD creates people for Hell. There is no Biblical support for that notion. In fact, it seems to be nothing but a logical fallacy and a false doctrine invented for the sole purpose of discrediting what the Bible clearly teaches about election.

The mere existence of the nation of Israel in the Old Testament proves GOD's Divine Election. There's no "proof texting" necessary there.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2011, 07:23 AM
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It's a very slippery slope to argue that God preordained acts of sin. I
Then explain Judas Iscariot.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2011, 02:37 PM
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Then explain Judas Iscariot.
James 1: 13-14

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.


How can we reconcile the dogma of Calvin against the Scripture of James?
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2011, 04:23 PM
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I agree mostly with the the theology of Calvinism until the part about Christ only dying for the elect. So I guess you could call say I agree with 4 points!

It is my understanding from what I have read that Christ died for all and I believe it to be clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 10: 13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 3: 16, 17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."


1 Timothy 2: 6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

1 John 2: 2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."


Words like world, whosoever, & all, are awfully big words to equate with elect.
And I believe some Calvinists, especially hyper Calvinists, are reaching on this point.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2011, 06:35 PM
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I never heard the term "Calvinism" before I started attending a Presbyterian Church in 2006. I was raised Baptist and have had to study Calvinism from that background. However, I find that the more I study Calvinism, the more I agree with it. So, I guess I am becoming a Calvinist because I see how perfectly it lines up with the Bible.

I couldn't disagree more that Divine Election means that GOD creates people for Hell. There is no Biblical support for that notion. In fact, it seems to be nothing but a logical fallacy and a false doctrine invented for the sole purpose of discrediting what the Bible clearly teaches about election.

The mere existence of the nation of Israel in the Old Testament proves GOD's Divine Election. There's no "proof texting" necessary there.
The opposite is true Nate if you claim that God created some to be saved then the only logical conclusion is some were created not to be saved. Plus election and predestination are synonymous. God's election is different than saying you have no choice if God chooses you you are saved no matter what you say or do. That is not biblical in the least. God never once ever removes mans free will. Please show me one verse where God gives no one the option to do something.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2011, 06:39 PM
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Then explain Judas Iscariot.
Crisco did a great job but Judas is easy when you know his background. Judas was a part of the same group Barnabas was and they believed the Messiah would be a political savior. Judas was hoping to push Jesus into this role by getting him arrested. God knew this as did Jesus and it worked perfectly for God's will. Had Judas not did that Jesus would have still went to the cross.
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