Joshua, Jericho...and "the commander"

Originally Posted by Tyburn

That is Michael. Jesus is NOT an Angel, he is not a Host at all. Angels are created, Jesus was not. Why Michael and not some other Angel? Because Michael is called "he who is like GOD" and he is the highest form of created order, outside of anything Ressurected He is as powerfully good, as Satan is powerfully bad. If we assume that Satan has a lot of sway on matters from our perspective on this planet, we must be equally aware that Michael must have the same amount of sway in the opposite direction completely outside of Christ....otherwise...you cant say we're in a spiritual war...because Jesus Vs Lucifer is not a War...they are not equals...but Michael Vs Lucifer is...because they are of the same order and status...alright so Michael has double the troops...but that was simply because Lucifer could only convince one in three of the Host during the rebellion to follow him. He was in a minority even at the time of his take over bid, he never had the support of the vast majority.

ok, Now explain:
Gen. 16 (the Hagar conversation) who was that?
Gen. 22 (Abraham's conversation) who was that?
Gen. 31 (the Jacob conversation) he actually said who he was there.
Judges 13 (Manoah and his wife account) seems pretty clear buddy.

When you answer these, I have LOTS more.
Don't go into this with a closed mind brother. be willing to learn. Don't let tradition and old teaching cloud your judgment brother.

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Rev

ok, Now explain:
Gen. 16 (the Hagar conversation) who was that?
Gen. 22 (Abraham's conversation) who was that?
Gen. 31 (the Jacob conversation) he actually said who he was there.
Judges 13 (Manoah and his wife account) seems pretty clear buddy.

When you answer these, I have LOTS more.
Don't go into this with a closed mind brother. be willing to learn. Don't let tradition and old teaching cloud your judgment brother.

Genesis 16...Probably Gabriel. He is the host who often has messages for people concerning offspring and lineage. Ishmail goes on to form the Islamic Nations.

Genesis 22 That was GOD, I expect as a booming voice from the sky, not as in the form of Jesus...and the being that stops the killing of Issiac, I imagine is Michael, he usually deals with things involving killing...or it could have been Gabriel who deals mostly with lineage...remembering who Issiac gives birth to.

Genesis 31 That was GOD, as a booming voice from the sky.

Judges 13 Thats undobtedly Gabriel, telling a Mother she's going to have a special son...it seems to be his constant mandate "God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman" Notice...GOD is not the angel, GOD sends the angel to do his bidding...thats what Angels do.

Next set please

[NateR]

From the NetBible:

Genesis 32:24-30

32:24 So Jacob was left alone. Then a man 54 wrestled 55 with him until daybreak. 56 32:25 When the man 57 saw that he could not defeat Jacob, 58 he struck 59 the socket of his hip so the socket of Jacob’s hip was dislocated while he wrestled with him.

32:26 Then the man 60 said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” 61 “I will not let you go,” Jacob replied, 62 “unless you bless me.” 63 32:27 The man asked him, 64 “What is your name?” 65 He answered, “Jacob.” 32:28 “No longer will your name be Jacob,” the man told him, 66 “but Israel, 67 because you have fought 68 with God and with men and have prevailed.”

32:29 Then Jacob asked, “Please tell me your name.” 69 “Why 70 do you ask my name?” the man replied. 71 Then he blessed 72 Jacob 73 there. 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, 74 explaining, 75 “Certainly 76 I have seen God face to face 77 and have survived.” 78

The translator notes:

54 sn Reflecting Jacob’s perspective at the beginning of the encounter, the narrator calls the opponent simply “a man.” Not until later in the struggle does Jacob realize his true identity.

55 sn The verb translated “wrestled” (וַיֵּאָבֵק, vayye’aveq) sounds in Hebrew like the names “Jacob” (יַעֲקֹב, ya’aqov) and “Jabbok” (יַבֹּק, yabboq). In this way the narrator links the setting, the main action, and the main participant together in the mind of the reader or hearer.

56 tn Heb “until the rising of the dawn.”

57 tn Heb “he”; the referent (the man) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

58 tn Heb “him”; the referent (Jacob) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

59 tn Or “injured”; traditionally “touched.” The Hebrew verb translated “struck” has the primary meanings “to touch; to reach; to strike.” It can, however, carry the connotation “to harm; to molest; to injure.” God’s “touch” cripples Jacob – it would be comparable to a devastating blow.

60 tn Heb “he”; the referent (the man) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

61 tn Heb “dawn has arisen.”

62 tn Heb “and he said, ‘I will not let you go.’” The referent of the pronoun “he” (Jacob) has been specified for clarity, and the order of the introductory clause and the direct discourse has been rearranged in the translation for stylistic reasons.

63 sn Jacob wrestled with a man thinking him to be a mere man, and on that basis was equal to the task. But when it had gone on long enough, the night visitor touched Jacob and crippled him. Jacob’s request for a blessing can only mean that he now knew that his opponent was supernatural. Contrary to many allegorical interpretations of the passage that make fighting equivalent to prayer, this passage shows that Jacob stopped fighting, and then asked for a blessing.

64 tn Heb “and he said to him.” The referent of the pronoun “he” (the man who wrestled with Jacob) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

65 sn What is your name? The question is rhetorical, since the LORD obviously knew Jacob’s identity. But since the LORD is going to change Jacob’s name, this question is designed to bring focus Jacob’s attention on all that his name had come to signify.

66 tn Heb “and he said.” The referent of the pronoun “he” (the man who wrestled with Jacob) has been specified for clarity, and the order of the introductory clause and the direct discourse has been rearranged in the translation for stylistic reasons.

67 sn The name Israel is a common construction, using a verb with a theophoric element (אֵל, ’el) that usually indicates the subject of the verb. Here it means “God fights.” This name will replace the name Jacob; it will be both a promise and a call for faith. In essence, the LORD was saying that Jacob would have victory and receive the promises because God would fight for him.

68 sn You have fought. The explanation of the name Israel includes a sound play. In Hebrew the verb translated “you have fought” (שָׂרִיתָ, sarita) sounds like the name “Israel” (יִשְׂרָאֵל, yisra’el ), meaning “God fights” (although some interpret the meaning as “he fights [with] God”). The name would evoke the memory of the fight and what it meant. A. Dillmann says that ever after this the name would tell the Israelites that, when Jacob contended successfully with God, he won the battle with man (Genesis, 2:279). To be successful with God meant that he had to be crippled in his own self-sufficiency (A. P. Ross, “Jacob at the Jabboq, Israel at Peniel,” BSac 142 [1985]: 51-62).

69 sn Tell me your name. In primitive thought to know the name of a deity or supernatural being would enable one to use it for magical manipulation or power (A. S. Herbert, Genesis 12-50 [TBC], 108). For a thorough structural analysis of the passage discussing the plays on the names and the request of Jacob, see R. Barthes, “The Struggle with the Angel: Textual Analysis of Genesis 32:23-33,” Structural Analysis and Biblical Exegesis (PTMS), 21-33.

70 tn The question uses the enclitic pronoun “this” to emphasize the import of the question.

71 tn Heb “and he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’” The referent of the pronoun “he” (the man who wrestled with Jacob) has been specified for clarity, and the order of the introductory clause and the direct discourse has been rearranged in the translation for stylistic reasons.

72 tn The verb here means that the LORD endowed Jacob with success; he would be successful in everything he did, including meeting Esau.

73 tn Heb “him”; the referent (Jacob) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

74 sn The name Peniel means “face of God.” Since Jacob saw God face to face here, the name is appropriate.

75 tn The word “explaining” is supplied in the translation for stylistic reasons.

76 tn Or “because.”

77 sn I have seen God face to face. See the note on the name “Peniel” earlier in the verse.

78 tn Heb “and my soul [= life] has been preserved.”
sn I have survived. It was commonly understood that no one could see God and live (Gen 48:16; Exod 19:21, 24:10; and Judg 6:11, 22). On the surface Jacob seems to be saying that he saw God and survived. But the statement may have a double meaning, in light of his prayer for deliverance in v. 11. Jacob recognizes that he has survived his encounter with God and that his safety has now been guaranteed.

[Tyburn]

[Play The Man]

Originally Posted by NateR

From the NetBible:

Genesis 32:24-30


The translator notes:

NateR, how does that particular translation comment on Hosea 12?

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Genesis 16...Probably Gabriel. He is the host who often has messages for people concerning offspring and lineage. Ishmail goes on to form the Islamic Nations.

read it again, (vs 10) did Gabe multiply her seed?

Genesis 22 That was GOD, I expect as a booming voice from the sky, not as in the form of Jesus...and the being that stops the killing of Issiac, I imagine is Michael, he usually deals with things involving killing...or it could have been Gabriel who deals mostly with lineage...remembering who Issiac gives birth to.

(vs 11) doesnt say, God

Genesis 31 That was GOD, as a booming voice from the sky.

same as before

Judges 13 Thats undobtedly Gabriel, telling a Mother she's going to have a special son...it seems to be his constant mandate "God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman" Notice...GOD is not the angel, GOD sends the angel to do his bidding...thats what Angels do.
didnt you just say that God was doing his bidding in Gen 31?
Next set please

You seem to be making alot of guesses. You are going by the traditional views and not by any Biblical support,
Notice that Gabriel isnt shy about letting people know who he is WHEN its him. Luke 1:19

[NateR]

Originally Posted by Tyburn

Who does Jacob say that he wrestled with? He says that he saw GOD face to face. He didn't say that he saw an angel. The translator notes seem to confirm this idea. It's generally understood in Christianity that whenever GOD appears in the OT as a man then He is actually GOD the Son, since no one would be able to look upon GOD the Father.

The idea of the pre-incarnate Christ is simply a reference to GOD the Son prior to His conception inside the womb of Mary. We all know that the Son has existed for eternity as one with GOD; but we also know that He would eventually be incarnate in the physical body of Jesus Christ. The actually physical body of Jesus didn't exist prior to his conception in 4 BC, but GOD the Son did.

Originally Posted by Play The Man

NateR, how does that particular translation comment on Hosea 12?

12:3 In the womb he attacked his brother;
in his manly vigor he struggled 4 with God.
12:4 He struggled 5 with an angel and prevailed;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found God 6 at Bethel, 7
and there he spoke with him! 8
12:5 As for the LORD God Almighty,
the LORD is the name by which he is remembered! 9

The translator notes:

4 tn The verb שָׂרָה (sarah) means “to strive, contend” (HALOT 1354 s.v. שׂרה) or “persevere, persist” (BDB 975 s.v. שָׂרָה; see Gen 32:29). Almost all English versions render the verb here in terms of the former: NAB, NASB “contended”; NRSV “strove”; TEV, CEV “fought against.”

5 tc The MT vocalizes the consonantal text וָיָּשַׂר (vayyasar, vav consecutive + Qal preterite 3rd person masculine singular from שׂוּר, sur, “to see”); however, parallelism with שָׂרַה (sarah, “he contended”) in 12:3 suggested that it be vocalized as ויּשׂר (vav consecutive + Qal preterite 3rd person masculine singular from שׂרה [“to strive, contend”]). The latter is followed by almost all English versions here.

6 tn Heb “him”; the referent (God) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

7 map For location see Map4-G4; Map5-C1; Map6-E3; Map7-D1; Map8-G3.

8 tc The Leningrad Codex and the Allepo Codex both read 1st person common plural עִמָּנוּ (’immanu, “with us”). The LXX and Pe••••ta both reflect an alternate Hebrew Vorlage of 3rd person masculine singular עִמוֹ (’imo, “with him”). The BHS editors suggest emending the MT in favor of the Greek and Syriac. The internal evidence of 12:4-5 favors the 3rd person masculine singular reading. It is likely that the 1st person common plural ־נוּ reading on עִמָּנוּ arose due to a misunderstanding of the 3rd person masculine singular ־נוּ suffix on יִמְצָאֶנּוּ (yimtsa’ennu, “he found him”; Qal imperfect 3rd person masculine singular + 3rd person masculine singular suffix) which was probably misunderstood as the 1st person common plural suffix: “he found us.” Several English versions follow the LXX and Syriac: “there he spoke with him” (RSV, NAB, NEB, NIV, NJPS, TEV). Others follow the MT: “there he spoke with us” (KJV, NASB, CEV). The Hebrew University Old Testament Project, which tends to preserve the MT whenever possible, adopts the MT reading but gives it only a “C” rating. See D. Barthélemy, ed., Preliminary and Interim Report on the Hebrew Old Testament Text Project, 5:262-63.

9 tn Heb “[is] his memorial name” (so ASV); TEV “the name by which he is to be worshipped.”

The thing about the NetBible is that each book is translated by different translators. So Hosea would be translated by a different person, or group of people, than those who translated Genesis.

What we see are two references of Jacob wrestling GOD sandwiching one reference of him wrestling an angel. However the word translated into English as "angel" is the Hebrew term mal'ak. According to the Strong's Concordance, mal'ak can have the following meanings:
messenger, a human representative: angel, a supernatural representative of God, sometimes delivering messages, sometimes protecting God's people; the "angel of the LORD" sometimes shares divine characteristics and is sometimes thought to be a manifestation of God himself, or of the preincarnate Christ (page 1901, The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, published in 2001).

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by Rev

You seem to be making alot of guesses. You are going by the traditional views and not by any Biblical support,
Notice that Gabriel isnt shy about letting people know who he is WHEN its him. Luke 1:19

Yes...and look what that caused...ironically...and this has been my whole point...its actually quite dangerous for anyone to be identified with certainty...why? coz thats what starts cultic fascinations.

Of which the whole annunciation is one of them. Gabriel told many mothers they would have special babies...but most of those are not well known...and rightly so...Gabriel is a messenger and not the focus...just like my position at Saint Paul's, the idea is NOT TO BE SEEN! To carry out an important job, completely unseen....thats the whole idea...that way attention remains where it belongs. My role was to make sure all the ceremonial duties of the Church went smoothly...a vital role...but a role that anyone sitting in the congregation shouldnt notice IF everything goes to plan...as far as they are concerned things just happened that way...they notice the Priest at the lectern in time to speak (they do not question how the priest got their on time) They notice sitting and being part of the worship (they do not notice the movement of vast crowds in moments of time in order to get everyone where they need to be on schedual. They notice the beauty of the Choir (they do not know who dished out their clothes, and who leads them into their seats, and who leads them out)

The support role is VITAL but NOT IMPORTANT...and thats like the work of the host. Vital...but not important. When a Host is identified people write endlessly about it....thats why the incarnation is so special...the Angel has a name..therefore it has a personality, therefore it is special.

NO...it was a being doing its duty...it was Vital that the message got from a-b...but it was the message and the power of that message that was important.

Thankfully, they do such a wonderful job most people are completely oblivious to them...like you, like Nathan...and thats OKAY, thats how they like it...but having been in a supporting role where I'm invisible...and rightly so...I understand and can see it where its not obvious to others who havent had that unique experience.

We dont want everyone taking my view...coz then EVERY Angelic encounter would end up LIKE THIS...and we dont want that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BbncHyw9E

[Tyburn]

Originally Posted by NateR

Who does Jacob say that he wrestled with? He says that he saw GOD face to face. He didn't say that he saw an angel. The translator notes seem to confirm this idea. It's generally understood in Christianity that whenever GOD appears in the OT as a man then He is actually GOD the Son, since no one would be able to look upon GOD the Father.

The idea of the pre-incarnate Christ is simply a reference to GOD the Son prior to His conception inside the womb of Mary. We all know that the Son has existed for eternity as one with GOD; but we also know that He would eventually be incarnate in the physical body of Jesus Christ. The actually physical body of Jesus didn't exist prior to his conception in 4 BC, but GOD the Son did.

I have NO Doubt that Jacob believed he had seen GOD and not a Host...Thats not what im desputing.

But Jacob may be mistaken in truth.

...and it is NOT Generally understood in Christianity. Christianity traditionally holds that Christ appears on Earth TWICE. Incarnation and Second Comming

However it IS Generally understood in Judaism that The Angel of The Lord and Christ are probably one and the same thing.

Thats why I said both interpretations were Valid...but You and I have very different theological interpretations, yours is a jewish perspective, ancient, and allowing for things like Jesus to appear before his incarnation. Mine is Christian, its quite classical, Jesus didnt come and go except for Salvational issues...anything else therefore is the work of the Host.