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Old 04-03-2011, 01:36 PM
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Abraham didn't wrestle with anyone; I think you are referring to Jacob.




Yes...Wrong Patriarch....Sorry
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:39 PM
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11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Does not actually apply to The Spiritual War, but a Specific Battle in the Spiritual War, in which, as I said, there is really no War, but a massicre and bloodbath. That is not the everyday battles fought in this war...its a picture of Jesus when he takes charge and when he does that, its game over....Something that doesnt happen outside of revelation.

But at least you are presenting viable counters
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:49 PM
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First Commandment



Fixed
you know what I mean you may not aggree, but you know what I mean......and...as a matter of fact...Angels have been known to do bad things and get away with them for a substantial period of time. GOD might have crushed the rebellion....but what about the Host that decided quite apart from Lucifer, and much later, to visit earth and REPRODUCE WITH HUMANS TO CREATE NEPHILIM? GOD didnt stop that!...and though you will say that he eventually distroyed them all by sending the flood....POST FLOOD their are records of Nephilim like Men in Scripture....

You cant possibly think that because thats absent from the commandments its any less of an abomination to GOD...and yet he tollerated it. People seem to assume that Angels dont have a mind of their own...They may not have complete free will, like we do...but they must have some....because a lot of GODs problems have been caused by Rebels in the Heavens suddenly deciding to do things contrary to GODs Commands...is that not sinning?? and if Host can do it...then we have to ask ourselves...can ALL created Life sin?? and therefore is it a certainty that they all WILL?

Here is another thing....Regardless of who can and cant sin...Salvation isnt offered to everything. GODs free gift is only on offer for Humans...I dont see where he offers Eternal Life to Angelic Host...They may not be able to die or reproduce...but if they are Created, then their eternity is only a potential. GOD can distroy anything he makes.

Suppose for a second, not only was that Michael...BUT that he also sinned (I Do not believe it on this occasion...but that is another possible interpretation) Tell me...What use is The Commander of The Army of The Lord...AFTER the Lords victory? What exactly is it he will be fighting against?? We do not know what happens to Host after Armageddon, we do not know if they are judged...all we know is they CAN sin, because some of them undeniably have...and that at some point, Post Ressurectional Human Beings will be incharge of a great number of them (from Pauls text) beyond that...we actually dont know.
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Old 04-03-2011, 05:02 PM
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WOW
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2011, 05:36 PM
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Dave, explain the "Angel of the Lord".
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:22 PM
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WOW
Um yeah....
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  #27  
Old 04-04-2011, 03:13 AM
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You are the one who contended my assertion, the burden of proof is on you. The only way you can proove it is by claiming Christ walked the earth prior to his Incarnation. Thats a theology I do not accept. You challenged me over the unification of what appears to be a Host Accepting Praise, and I told you how I could unify that without comprimising Scriptural commands about idolitry....I assume you dont accept that method, but you never responded to that.
I thought your explanation was too silly to even be worthy of a response.

I already gave you the proof. The Commander accepted worship, thus He must be GOD or more specifically a pre-incarnate Christ.

We all know that Christ has existed for eternity and He didn't just pop into existence in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. So why is this a problem? He temporarily took on human form on rare, important occasions in the OT, however, no one is claiming that he was fully human and born of a virgin in any of these instances.

As for post-incarnate appearances, yes, in theory they would be possible. However, Jesus already told us what the circumstances of His return would be, so we can say with almost 100% certainty that Jesus has not returned to Earth since His Ascension 2000 years ago.

As for the descriptions of Jesus appearing on earth "willy-nilly," I find that to be more than a little blasphemous, because I don't believe we should trivialize anything GOD does.

As for you not stating your opinions with absolute certainty:

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there is no such thing a a pre-incarnate Christ...thats defeats the whole point of THE Incarnation...so it must be Michael
You sound pretty certain to me.

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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
you know what I mean you may not aggree, but you know what I mean......and...as a matter of fact...Angels have been known to do bad things and get away with them for a substantial period of time. GOD might have crushed the rebellion....but what about the Host that decided quite apart from Lucifer, and much later, to visit earth and REPRODUCE WITH HUMANS TO CREATE NEPHILIM? GOD didnt stop that!...and though you will say that he eventually distroyed them all by sending the flood....POST FLOOD their are records of Nephilim like Men in Scripture....

You cant possibly think that because thats absent from the commandments its any less of an abomination to GOD...and yet he tollerated it. People seem to assume that Angels dont have a mind of their own...They may not have complete free will, like we do...but they must have some....because a lot of GODs problems have been caused by Rebels in the Heavens suddenly deciding to do things contrary to GODs Commands...is that not sinning?? and if Host can do it...then we have to ask ourselves...can ALL created Life sin?? and therefore is it a certainty that they all WILL?

Here is another thing....Regardless of who can and cant sin...Salvation isnt offered to everything. GODs free gift is only on offer for Humans...I dont see where he offers Eternal Life to Angelic Host...They may not be able to die or reproduce...but if they are Created, then their eternity is only a potential. GOD can distroy anything he makes.

Suppose for a second, not only was that Michael...BUT that he also sinned (I Do not believe it on this occasion...but that is another possible interpretation) Tell me...What use is The Commander of The Army of The Lord...AFTER the Lords victory? What exactly is it he will be fighting against?? We do not know what happens to Host after Armageddon, we do not know if they are judged...all we know is they CAN sin, because some of them undeniably have...and that at some point, Post Ressurectional Human Beings will be incharge of a great number of them (from Pauls text) beyond that...we actually dont know.
So, now your argument is based on the assertion that Michael was rebelling against GOD and, in effect, sinning by appearing to Joshua and claiming to actually be GOD?
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:41 PM
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Dave, explain the "Angel of the Lord".
That is Michael. Jesus is NOT an Angel, he is not a Host at all. Angels are created, Jesus was not. Why Michael and not some other Angel? Because Michael is called "he who is like GOD" and he is the highest form of created order, outside of anything Ressurected He is as powerfully good, as Satan is powerfully bad. If we assume that Satan has a lot of sway on matters from our perspective on this planet, we must be equally aware that Michael must have the same amount of sway in the opposite direction completely outside of Christ....otherwise...you cant say we're in a spiritual war...because Jesus Vs Lucifer is not a War...they are not equals...but Michael Vs Lucifer is...because they are of the same order and status...alright so Michael has double the troops...but that was simply because Lucifer could only convince one in three of the Host during the rebellion to follow him. He was in a minority even at the time of his take over bid, he never had the support of the vast majority.
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:07 PM
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1)I thought your explanation was too silly to even be worthy of a response.

2) I already gave you the proof. The Commander accepted worship, thus He must be GOD or more specifically a pre-incarnate Christ.

3) We all know that Christ has existed for eternity and He didn't just pop into existence in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. So why is this a problem? He temporarily took on human form on rare, important occasions in the OT, however, no one is claiming that he was fully human and born of a virgin in any of these instances.

As for post-incarnate appearances, yes, in theory they would be possible. However, Jesus already told us what the circumstances of His return would be, so we can say with almost 100% certainty that Jesus has not returned to Earth since His Ascension 2000 years ago.

4) As for the descriptions of Jesus appearing on earth "willy-nilly," I find that to be more than a little blasphemous, because I don't believe we should trivialize anything GOD does.

5) As for you not stating your opinions with absolute certainty:



You sound pretty certain to me.



6) So, now your argument is based on the assertion that Michael was rebelling against GOD and, in effect, sinning by appearing to Joshua and claiming to actually be GOD?
1) you mean you couldnt be bothered to respond and address my actual points.

2) where does it say in scripture that such a thing as a pre-incarnate Christ exists. that is MERE Jewish Speculation to try and reconcile the issues of idolitry. At least admit, your view is based on as much presumption as mine.

3) whats the point in being born then? whats the point in the whole incarnation if Jesus has appeared many times, to do many important functions...also...I dont remember Jesus EVER saying he had walked in the form of a man on earth before...so Why do you assume...if he has, that he wont also come back before the second coming...coz he evidently hasnt told us ALL the visitations. You would have to accept that Jesus post incarnate only speaks about his visitations with regards to Salvation. That doesnt rule out him walking on earth RIGHT NOW so long as it is not to make an impact on his visitation 2000 years ago, or his Visitation during the Millenial Reign. Talking to you is like trying to get blood out of a stone. At least be logical and admit the flaws and options in your arguments

4) your the one trivializing. Your the one claiming he appears to do almost nothing. Jesus on Earth is a BIG Deal...what happened with Joshua moments before the taking of Jericho is insignificant. So insignificant, most people wont even be told of this apparition. So Jesus appeared...to do what? Tell Joshua to take his shoes off...The LORD Almighty, took human form simply to do that when he has a gazillion Host SPECIFICALLY designed for such task, CREATED for that sort of purpose alone. I find that personally an outragous suggestion. I admit its a valid interpretation if you can find no way of reconciling the worship issue...but what is the point? When you were in the forces...did you ever see such a High Ranking Official do anything without great purpose? Would your Chief of Staff...your President, come to your base to stand by the gate and say Goodmorning to you?? Would he lead you on the Battlefield? Would he fight by your side??

Yet you suppose that the same situation in the heavnely realm involves the opposite. All the grunts doing nothing, and only the Highest Ranking Officials doing the most menial of tasks. I simply dont understand how you can possibly think that makes logical sense?? You simply want to discount Angels as being unimportant. Thats what I think you are about. You neither care, nor give probably any time to how, in practical matters, the Kingdom is run. Nothing matters but the King...and I understand that, Truely I do...but I have always had a heart for those who end up doing all the work, those who get overlooked, those who work tierlessly and never get any recognition, those who are seen not to matter...and Angels...largely have been completely wipped out of history, all of them.

Yet for someone who places zero emphasis on Host...you really do have a lot to say about what is wrong, and what is evil. Yet you NEVER comment on threads where that comes up outside of biblical scripture...and let me tell you...it still happens...demons and angels didnt vanish with the early church. we are surrounded by a vast cloud of witnesses...and I dont think when Paul and Jesus say that they are talking about the faithful...I think they are talking about the Host...that we are surrounded by the spiritual world, fit to burst with spiritual beings we cant see with physical eyes...but whose voices we can, and hear constantly chattering in our heads and whispering in our ears...and those thoughts you think are yours, arent always yours at all.

5) Im certain of my believf...Im not certain that belief is true, and what I show you there is my workings out...how I came to my belief...I am always open to the possibility that one or more of the premises I have made might not be accurate, and therefore the wrong conclusion drawn...which is more then I can say for you, in the whole time ive ever known you, never once have you ever given doubt on a religious issue that your conclusion is not just thought, by you, to be the truth, but that is actually IS the truth and there is no uncertainty in that. I am full of uncertainty...I even change and update my own theology and evaluate my own theology over time, because I think im undergoing a process of revelation...and the more indepth you go, the more it changes...a little like studying a science...you study it at GCSE...and the first thing they tell you at A-Level is that half of what you studied, whilst true is so simplistic as to almost on some levels be false. I think Spiritual progression is learning, evaluating, and growing. GOD might be changeless, but im always changing...and the closer you get, the more detal you notice that wasnt there before...like approaching a planet...it just looks like a glowing ball at first...and then you can see crators, and then as you get closer you see more and more.

6) I said that was a possible interpretation. I did not say I believed that Interpretation. I believe your view is a possible interpretation, but I dont believe that either.
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  #30  
Old 04-04-2011, 04:04 PM
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I spoke to Mother about this...she seems to think that Joshua worshipped GOD because the Angel told him he was standing on Holy Ground.

That seems far more simple then angel idolitry, pre-incarnate christs or sinful Host doesnt it.

Wish I'd just sat back and actually read the passage with its proper inference
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