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  #21  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
Really, Dave? Are yo uimplying tha Frankie has the UFC 125 belt at home? That's what you're implying. Unless you think that because he has the belts from previous title wins means he wins this one, too. But that can't be right since Jens, BJ & Sherk all have belts from previous wins. Does that mean that, since there's a draw, they're all champs again, since they "have the belt"?

Dave, don't be disingenuous. You've argued up & down (& I've agreed with you) that Matt's a 9x champ because he's got 9 belts from 9 wins in 12 title fights. By that same logic, Frankie's a 2x champ because he's got 2 belts from 2 wins in 3 title fights. I'm sorry if you don't like the results that your own logic produces, but you have to live with it or else you look like a child changing his mind whenever it suits him to get his way.
I was under the impression he actually got given a new belt at UFC 125...yes. Otherwise...surely the Title is Vacent??? Yet they are still calling him the champion.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post

Dave's trying to imply that there's not a single individual belt which gets passed from champ to champ, so if Gray has failed to get the belt at UFC 125, then he's lost his contendership. Problem is, Frankie failed to get the belt at UFC 125, too, so by his argument, there is no champion.
ohhhhh........ I get the logic now... Thanks Ben.. you have much more experience than I in "translating" Dave than I.. I get ya...

Using Dave's logic... correct.. there is no champion... So who best to fight for the "now vacant" title??? The two that fought for it before...

I personally would like to see Grey (who names their kid a color??) and Frankie go at it again..
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  #23  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:08 PM
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I was under the impression he actually got given a new belt at UFC 125...yes. Otherwise...surely the Title is Vacent??? Yet they are still calling him the champion.
You can't lose the title in a draw.. Frankie is still the champion.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:10 PM
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They strapped a belt on him, yeah, but it's not a new one. How can they give someone a belt if they didn't win it, Dave?
So you DONT know if thats the OLD belt or a NEW Belt. I suspect its a NEW belt because SOMEONE HAS to be awarded it.

...and as you pointed out...logically, thats the only way, unless you declaire it vacent...my guess is that he has THREE Belts...Penn1...Penn2....Maynard

The only way to settle this for certain, is to find out..if that was a new belt or an old belt. If its new then I am right about the Draw being classed as a victory for the champion and a defeat for the contender...if its the old belt...then absolutely...as far as im concerned its a vacent belt...and then...yes i'd understand the need for a rematch.

But I strongly suspect that belt was the UFC125 belt Ben....
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  #25  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:18 PM
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You can't lose the title in a draw.. Frankie is still the champion.
you can, if you dont give him a new belt. At the start of every Championship fight, the last belt is effectively Void. Therefore in order to defend and retain, you have to be awarded another belt.

the Belts are NOT linear...which means, its impoosible for a contender to TAKE someone elses Belt....it also means it is the BELT that signifies the Champion.

UFC 125, Maynard is the contender, he is after gaining a belt, that Belt will be active from the moment he is declaired winner, to the moment he first fights to retain. Meanwhile Edgar enters the fight as the Champion...but his belt is void the moment the fight begins... a NEW Champion is thus ALWAYS declaired. The person maybe the same, but the Belts are unique to that event. There IS a UFC125 belt, because they ALWAYS have a new belt ready. if they do not give it out...neither guy can call himself a champion...because neither guy has the Belt...therefore the position in in absentia. The belt remains with the company...presumably it will NEVER be worn, because a different one will be made for the rematch.

IF thats the case...then there is NO champion in that division. BUT I suspect you find that that belt that was strapped onto Edgar at the end of the Fight, was the NEW Belt...signifying that, regardless of the Draw...he gets the NEW title...therefore there IS a winner and a looser.

But we now need to clarify that.
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  #26  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:22 PM
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you can, if you dont give him a new belt. At the start of every Championship fight, the last belt is effectively Void. Therefore in order to defend and retain, you have to be awarded another belt.

the Belts are NOT linear...which means, its impoosible for a contender to TAKE someone elses Belt....it also means it is the BELT that signifies the Champion.

UFC 125, Maynard is the contender, he is after gaining a belt, that Belt will be active from the moment he is declaired winner, to the moment he first fights to retain. Meanwhile Edgar enters the fight as the Champion...but his belt is void the moment the fight begins... a NEW Champion is thus ALWAYS declaired. The person maybe the same, but the Belts are unique to that event. There IS a UFC125 belt, because they ALWAYS have a new belt ready. if they do not give it out...neither guy can call himself a champion...because neither guy has the Belt...therefore the position in in absentia. The belt remains with the company...presumably it will NEVER be worn, because a different one will be made for the rematch.

IF thats the case...then there is NO champion in that division. BUT I suspect you find that that belt that was strapped onto Edgar at the end of the Fight, was the NEW Belt...signifying that, regardless of the Draw...he gets the NEW title...therefore there IS a winner and a looser.

But we now need to clarify that.
In boxing, pro wrestling, etc., you have to beat the champ to earn his belt. A draw in a championship fight isn't BEATING the champ, thus, the champ keeps his belt.
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  #27  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
you can, if you dont give him a new belt. At the start of every Championship fight, the last belt is effectively Void. Therefore in order to defend and retain, you have to be awarded another belt.

the Belts are NOT linear...which means, its impoosible for a contender to TAKE someone elses Belt....it also means it is the BELT that signifies the Champion.

UFC 125, Maynard is the contender, he is after gaining a belt, that Belt will be active from the moment he is declaired winner, to the moment he first fights to retain. Meanwhile Edgar enters the fight as the Champion...but his belt is void the moment the fight begins... a NEW Champion is thus ALWAYS declaired. The person maybe the same, but the Belts are unique to that event. There IS a UFC125 belt, because they ALWAYS have a new belt ready. if they do not give it out...neither guy can call himself a champion...because neither guy has the Belt...therefore the position in in absentia. The belt remains with the company...presumably it will NEVER be worn, because a different one will be made for the rematch.

IF thats the case...then there is NO champion in that division. BUT I suspect you find that that belt that was strapped onto Edgar at the end of the Fight, was the NEW Belt...signifying that, regardless of the Draw...he gets the NEW title...therefore there IS a winner and a looser.


Dave.. your being goofy... just plain goofy...

The fight was a draw... there was no winner.. no loser.... a "tie"

Frankie is still the Champ... deal with it.. Grey is the #1 contender...



Quote:
But we now need to clarify that.
Your the one that needs to be clarified... not trying to being insulting.. but you way of thinking is baffling..
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  #28  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:43 PM
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Sorry...tell me, who has the belt following a Draw. is it the challenger, or the champion?

a one word answer will surfice
The belt is simply a trophy and I realize that many people including you use "the belt" interchangeably with the title of Champion but you shouldn't. The better question would be : Who has the title after a draw? And the answer is and will always be the current Champion.



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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
I was under the impression he actually got given a new belt at UFC 125...yes. Otherwise...surely the Title is Vacent??? Yet they are still calling him the champion.
Again.... confusing a Belt with a Title. Nobody won that fight so no new trophy is given away. Because nobody won the Title remains with the Champion.
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  #29  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:46 PM
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The belt is simply a trophy and I realize that many people including you use "the belt" interchangeably with the title of Champion but you shouldn't. The better question would be : Who has the title after a draw? And the answer is and will always be the current Champion.

Again.... confusing a Belt with a Title. Nobody won that fight so no new trophy is given away. Because nobody won the Title remains with the Champion.
Chuck, thank you. I had let him set the language of the argument & couldn't get him to understand the mistake. You've clarified it perfectly here.
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  #30  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VCURamFan View Post
Chuck, thank you. I had let him set the language of the argument & couldn't get him to understand the mistake. You've clarified it perfectly here.
Oh don't worry bro, Dave will find a way to argue and confuse the point with all sorts of new turns and twists... just sit back and be patient.


Thank you though.
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