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  #31  
Old 03-17-2011, 07:23 PM
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I sure am Dave I am a nut that comes from the tree of life. Thanks for that nice compliment. That is the nicest thing you have ever said to me thanks!!!! You have a duty to tell others of Christ it is called the great commission and it was a command not a suggestion. SO join the rest of us nuts and tell everyone you meet.
You?? The Tree of Life?? More like a fig tree!

You have to taste the Tree of The Knowledge of Goodness and Evil first....that will at least open your eyes and make you aware...I dont think you are in the slightest bit aware of the effect you have on some people around here!

Yes be part of the Great Commission...but prior to your response, please dont forget to ask for Wisdom Your Religious...you know your Bible inside out....but that only makes you as good as a pharasee...and they werent better then a pit of Vipers...
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  #32  
Old 03-17-2011, 07:25 PM
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I dont think being a Christian equals instant and complete character redevelopment. I think it is the start of a new creation which takes a while to grow and develope. I think that you progress to grow more christlike...and I think that progression is controlled mostly by him, the more you allow him to work, the faster the transition.

This reflects the pauline Scriptures that speak about seeing dimly now, but seeing all at the last, and about eating milk, before solids. I dont think conversion means the Christian stops sinning. I think the first thing he does is sin...but whereas it didnt bother him before, now it does. I then think he realizes he cant help it, even though his mind wants not to sin, his flesh still lets him down.

Again, Saint Paul talks about this in his writings, and about how the moment of conversion is the start of physical death for the flesh, because the Flesh is sinful and will never be salvaged, it cant be saved. The ressurectional body is similar, but not the same...and like the antibodies in your blood attack an infection...so the Spirit of GOD will begin its work of clensing body and spirit...the clensing of the body is its demise, it is fragile, weak, stupid, and not destined for glory. This maybe why Jesus talks about cutting off limbs to stop sin. I dont think he meant it litterally...but I do think that there is a certain amount of disdain for the flesh which becomes more of a hassle then its worth.

Slowly, over time maybe the Christian sins less...or maybe he simply repents more because he realizes his whole world litterally revolves around sinful activities...mainly confined to his thoughts...thank goodness...but all the same. Once he realizes his thought life is sinful, he knows he cant free himself....which is fine. Ye have not, because Ye Ask Not....GOD is waiting to help...but he does enjoy being asked. Unlike Demons, he wont force himself upon you.

So it depends what GOD is doing with a person and what the person is struggling with as to how far they change...and I dont think we should ever judge...but I think we should support...if we see someone we suspect isnt acting like they should considering what the profess to be...it might be time to offer them aid. Its certainly not time to judge...the last thing we want to do, if our suspicions are right, is to entrench them further into their sin

I'm not saying you were suggesting otherwise, simply stating what I believe to help clarify to your specific point about change
this is saying that God might only want some to grow a little spritually while others more so. I cant see that line of thinking anywhere in scripture. In fact I will quote Paul since you like to.
Philippians 3: 12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

This tells me that a Christian's goal should be perfection. This is what we should strive toward. If we can be content with just being "ok", then we might need to reevaluate our spiritual status.


As far as being on milk spiritually, this is true, but it only goes to prove my point even further. Lets say a person lives to be 50 yrs old, and drinks only milk for 1 year before moving up to solid foods. That is a very small percent of his life spent on milk. Its the same way spiritually, we are not supposed to be on spiritual milk forever. Yes just as some babies need to be on milk longer, some Christians will be on spiritual milk longer, but we are supposed to grow. This is one of the big problems with churches today, to much milk being preached from the puplits. GET OFF THE MILK AND ON SOME MEAT!!!

You also said something about a person "sinning less or repenting more"..... I dont buy this line of thinking either because if they trully repent then they arent going to sin as much anyway. To repent means to "turn away from", so if you trully repent, then you cant really be doing this over and over and over.... will we mess up? absolutely, but we be broken about it and move forward IF we trully repent.
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  #33  
Old 03-17-2011, 07:32 PM
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Dave and ChrisF
Enough is enough. you 2 are always going at it here. I know yall rub each other the wrong way but come on. If this wasnt a pride thing, it seems to like yall would be doing it through PM's. The fact that yall do this out here leads me to think you both want the glory of a victory. This doesnt sound like what either one of you profess to be.

So come on, nobody cares whose fault it is, lets squash it and move on.
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  #34  
Old 03-17-2011, 11:30 PM
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1) This tells me that a Christian's goal should be perfection. This is what we should strive toward. If we can be content with just being "ok", then we might need to reevaluate our spiritual status.


As far as being on milk spiritually, this is true, but it only goes to prove my point even further. Lets say a person lives to be 50 yrs old, and drinks only milk for 1 year before moving up to solid foods. That is a very small percent of his life spent on milk. Its the same way spiritually, we are not supposed to be on spiritual milk forever. Yes just as some babies need to be on milk longer, some Christians will be on spiritual milk longer, but we are supposed to grow. This is one of the big problems with churches today, to much milk being preached from the puplits. GET OFF THE MILK AND ON SOME MEAT!!!

You also said something about a person "sinning less or repenting more"..... I dont buy this line of thinking either because if they trully repent then they arent going to sin as much anyway. To repent means to "turn away from", so if you trully repent, then you cant really be doing this over and over and over.... will we mess up? absolutely, but we be broken about it and move forward IF we trully repent.
1) You dont get it do you. We CANT get to perfection without His Help. Perfection may be your goal...but you will NEVER attain it this side of Heaven, and you will never get close with GODs help.

Your like the person who dwells on "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" I am the person who remembers: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Remember where the power comes from. Its not magic, you dont say a believers prayer and suddenly never sin again. Its not spell casting! its a life long development

...and some people will develope quicker then others...some will be on milk for as long as they live. Thank GOD, it doesnt matter...they have all eternity to catch up with him in person after they cease from labour.

I do understand the concept of Metanoia...but again, turning away, doesnt mean you wont naturally turn back. Remember where you are...you are fallen and sinful, and its your earthly nature to do evil. Your Spirit is not strong enough to resist all temptation. So ask GOD to help you (again...notice the power discourse im invoking here) I'm not using my own power to conqure sin...I ask GOD to do it...because I recognise there are things in this world that I alone cant overcome.

Had you asked me last week...my answer might have been slightly different...I was well and truely put in my place last saturday night, I was clearly shown how weak and feeble I am, it was made abundantly clear to me that my power will not suffice. I know now that great power only comes from two places, and I know which power is greater, and I know which power I can trust...and I aint just saying that. I have seen it. Actually seen and felt both types of power...Im no longer spouting theory which has long since been my tirade on matters like this. I got a practical lesson, and one I wont be soon forgetting.
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:08 AM
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1) You dont get it do you. We CANT get to perfection without His Help. Perfection may be your goal...but you will NEVER attain it this side of Heaven, and you will never get close with GODs help.

Your like the person who dwells on "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" I am the person who remembers: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"
Remember where the power comes from. Its not magic, you dont say a believers prayer and suddenly never sin again. Its not spell casting! its a life long development

...and some people will develope quicker then others...some will be on milk for as long as they live. Thank GOD, it doesnt matter...they have all eternity to catch up with him in person after they cease from labour.

I do understand the concept of Metanoia...but again, turning away, doesnt mean you wont naturally turn back. Remember where you are...you are fallen and sinful, and its your earthly nature to do evil. Your Spirit is not strong enough to resist all temptation. So ask GOD to help you (again...notice the power discourse im invoking here) I'm not using my own power to conqure sin...I ask GOD to do it...because I recognise there are things in this world that I alone cant overcome.

Had you asked me last week...my answer might have been slightly different...I was well and truely put in my place last saturday night, I was clearly shown how weak and feeble I am, it was made abundantly clear to me that my power will not suffice. I know now that great power only comes from two places, and I know which power is greater, and I know which power I can trust...and I aint just saying that. I have seen it. Actually seen and felt both types of power...Im no longer spouting theory which has long since been my tirade on matters like this. I got a practical lesson, and one I wont be soon forgetting.
First of all, you need to know what you are talking about be fore you talk chief. the whole part of striving for perfection is exactly what I was saying!!!

What does Phil 4:13 really mean? and unless you know how I interpret it, its best to keep your moth shut about it because you are assuming and we all know what happens when we ASSUME.

If you knew anything about what I believed, You would know that I dont believe it is a magic transformation that happens instantly. Arguments like the one you are making sound to me like someone making excuses for something. I'm not trying to be rude and I fully expect EVERYONE one this forum to flame me for saying that to "the" Dave, but I wont sit back and let others be conviced of anything other than true conversion and spiritual growth. If this is gonna get heated on your part, then lets continue through PM so as not to drag the rest of the forum down.

Last edited by Rev; 03-18-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2011, 11:20 PM
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First of all, you need to know what you are talking about be fore you talk chief. the whole part of striving for perfection is exactly what I was saying!!!

What does Phil 4:13 really mean? and unless you know how I interpret it, its best to keep your moth shut about it because you are assuming and we all know what happens when we ASSUME.

If you knew anything about what I believed, You would know that I dont believe it is a magic transformation that happens instantly. Arguments like the one you are making sound to me like someone making excuses for something. I'm not trying to be rude and I fully expect EVERYONE one this forum to flame me for saying that to "the" Dave, but I wont sit back and let others be conviced of anything other than true conversion and spiritual growth. If this is gonna get heated on your part, then lets continue through PM so as not to drag the rest of the forum down.
No thank you. I perfer to play these things in the light....First you dont want to sit back...then you want to just chat through PM so noone else can hear? I dont think so. If you want to talk about this...then talk. The truth wont crumble under scrutiney.

I am not making any arguments for anything...thanks for suggesting otherwise...but if you'd been around as long as me on here you'd know that I do suffer from forms of sin, and that I had no problem lamenting, and asking for help IN PUBLIC...until I was silenced by the administration...so dont you dare accuse me of hiding anything...if I am silent on issues, its because I have been threatened into holding me peace against my will...NOT because I am ashamed, not because I am doing anything in secret, and not because I am making any excuses.

Just you remember who got "heated" first. I'm not the type to go quietly into the night, if you dont want a war, dont call me out in the first place. Who do you think you are, shouting at me and Pastor Chris...and then TWO POSTS LATER being as rude yourself. What is it with you? Do-as-I-say-not-Do-as-I-do?

I admit that I have spats with people, and sometimes thats rather unbecoming. But for you to point that out, and then on the same page to engage me in the manner above...thats ironic
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  #37  
Old 03-19-2011, 12:25 AM
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GET OFF THE MILK AND ON SOME MEAT!!!
You're not the bloke being quoted in the militant gay speech thread are you?
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  #38  
Old 03-19-2011, 02:19 AM
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No thank you. I perfer to play these things in the light....First you dont want to sit back...then you want to just chat through PM so noone else can hear? I dont think so. If you want to talk about this...then talk. The truth wont crumble under scrutiney.

I am not making any arguments for anything...thanks for suggesting otherwise...but if you'd been around as long as me on here you'd know that I do suffer from forms of sin, and that I had no problem lamenting, and asking for help IN PUBLIC...until I was silenced by the administration...so dont you dare accuse me of hiding anything...if I am silent on issues, its because I have been threatened into holding me peace against my will...NOT because I am ashamed, not because I am doing anything in secret, and not because I am making any excuses.

Just you remember who got "heated" first. I'm not the type to go quietly into the night, if you dont want a war, dont call me out in the first place. Who do you think you are, shouting at me and Pastor Chris...and then TWO POSTS LATER being as rude yourself. What is it with you? Do-as-I-say-not-Do-as-I-do?

I admit that I have spats with people, and sometimes thats rather unbecoming. But for you to point that out, and then on the same page to engage me in the manner above...thats ironic
1. I have been on here long enough and do know what you are talking about. Have I ever called you out on that issue? If I wanted to or even had that in mind I have had plenty of opprotunties to do so. I dont feel a need to because as far as I can see you are taking care of your buisiness just fine and if I were to ever say anything about it it would be through PM. As far as me wanting to "hide" things, it seems to me as though there are some on this forum who are seeking their way and the sight of 2 believers going at it wont be very healthy for their growth.

2. "calling you out"? You told me what kind of person I am and you dont even know me. Therefore, before you speak, you need to know what you are talking about.


3. "heated", "Shouting"? you can hear me type? WOW
I put the names in big letters so you 2 would know that that was directed at you 2. I should have PM'd yall instead looking back but I didnt. If you read my post you will see that I even said that I didnt want to be rude. The argument that you were making is one that I have heard many times and I have even made for not growing and not taking responsibility for actions. Argue this if you want but I know it to be true.


Dave it seems to me like you are always the victim of something or someone, I love ya dude and only want good for ya. I stand by what I posted and you cant deny that what I said has weight to it. I never accused you of anything. You are always very defensive and you love to throw big words and knowledge of religious traditions around in your arguments and it seems very pharisaical. Now I didnt just call you a pharisee, so dont jump on that. You wanted to air this out so, there it is. I admire you and your knowledge and love you as a brother in Christ, why would I want to do this in any manner other than one that will promote growth in our relationship as friends or growth in someones spiritual walk? Do you think I just want to argue and be seen? To flex intellectual or theological muscles? I dont know very many of the people on this site at all. What good would that do me? None. My intentions are pure. If you are still all fired up about this then there is nothing I can do about it. Love ya dude.
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  #39  
Old 03-19-2011, 05:13 PM
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1)Dave it seems to me like you are always the victim of something or someone, I love ya dude and only want good for ya.

2) I stand by what I posted and you cant deny that what I said has weight to it. I never accused you of anything.

3) You are always very defensive

4) and you love to throw big words and knowledge of religious traditions around in your arguments and it seems very pharisaical. Now I didnt just call you a pharisee, so dont jump on that. You wanted to air this out so, there it is.

5) I admire you and your knowledge and love you as a brother in Christ, why would I want to do this in any manner other than one that will promote growth in our relationship as friends or growth in someones spiritual walk?

6) Do you think I just want to argue and be seen? To flex intellectual or theological muscles? I dont know very many of the people on this site at all. What good would that do me? None. My intentions are pure.

7) If you are still all fired up about this then there is nothing I can do about it. Love ya dude.
1) I'm not a Victim I am perfectly able to handle myself in almost all situations

2) Yes, I never said it wasnt a valid interpretation. But I didnt like your suggestion that my valid interpretation was nothing more then an excuse to avoid and hide stuff.

3) I like to think of it as being cautious. I have been too trusting and nieve in the past. I really dont like being fasley accused. I dont like it implied, and I dont like lies being said direct. You implied that I was mistaken in my view and that the reason for that mistake was because I was making excuses, avoiding issues, and presumably legitamizing some sort of sin. I took that as an attack, even if it wasnt quite meant that way.

4) Im not pharasical, because I dont know scripture well enough to be like that. Pharasees dont quote tradition, they quote Law usually. I might have a nasty judgement streak...but I am always accused of under supporting arguments because of a lacking in scriptural affirmation.

I do however like pomp and ceremony, I like it because it is ordered, and structured, it give routine, and doesnt allow for absentmindedness. That is not a liturgical standpoint...it goes WAY beyond that...I am FAR less J Then I was in terms of personality...but I still seem very obsessed and ordered to most peoples character.

5) you have to understand something. I do not have great trust in people, especially religious people. I was very badly wronged at a very large established church, by people who wished to do me harm. Their method was to keep as low as possible, and the way I foiled their evil plans was to tell the ENTIRE Community about it all, at every step of the way. I have seen people I thought were GOOD Men, do this to others, outside of the Church.

What passes between people in private can be used to muddy the waters in a "he said, she said" kinda way, it often is on this forum. Private Messages, especially sensative, and highly contriversial, or heated, or vulgar messages can be used as evidence against people. The mere insinuation that its happened can be enough to warrent investigation.

Its not that I believe that you would do anything, or have any alteria motive..its that I dont get into the state where you, or anyone, could, even if they wanted to.

6) No, however, being forced to do things in public, will curb the way you argue. In public there wont be namecalling, their wont be rudeness, their wont be vulgarity...and there wont be secrets that one can use against another. Why? because everyone can see everything. IF wrongs are committed, then everyone sees the perpertrator, and if wrongs dont occure, noone can raise a false claim. This is not about air-ing dirty laundry, its not about being macho...its about self preservation. Its about protecting ones self from what might happen.

You might be pure...but I cant take your word for that...not because I think your impure...but because I know that if you were...you wouldnt say so for obvious reasons. Im probably completely safe discussing everything with you in private...but I know for a fact there are people on this forum who I must NOT engage privately...for the reasons I stated above...and unless im certain, and know the person behind the screen name, I cant take the chance. Thats not personal against you...its a policy I apply to absolutely everyone.

7) No...I'm not really bothered about the issue anymore...If its serious I hold a grudge...if its not, Im usually like a flash fire...hot and intense for a post or two...but easily defused into the ether

Sorry for being mean to you
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  #40  
Old 03-19-2011, 05:36 PM
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Dave and ChrisF
Enough is enough. you 2 are always going at it here. I know yall rub each other the wrong way but come on. If this wasnt a pride thing, it seems to like yall would be doing it through PM's. The fact that yall do this out here leads me to think you both want the glory of a victory. This doesnt sound like what either one of you profess to be.

So come on, nobody cares whose fault it is, lets squash it and move on.
Rev I like Dave a lot. I take nothing he says personally. He speaks his mind and sometimes he forget to filter as I do. When he is really mad he will V-log it on youtube. Dave gets onto everyone who does nto think the way he does when it comes to Faith and Pulver. Dave has a hard time understanding Christinaity that is not litirgical and mapped out for the believer so he condems it whenever he can. Plus I am sure he is just feeling a little convictied by your challenge as well
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