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  #111  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
Okay time for the Devils advocate here.

1. There is a reason people like Ron Paul voted for this it is called the US Constitution.
I hear ya man, but didn't Ron Paul basically want to abolish every single government agency, like public schools and the FBI?
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  #112  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:29 PM
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1) I don't need to know he's gay....and you telling me he's gay, and that I have to sleep in the same room with him, just made me uncomfortable....see how that works?

(not saying that's how I personally feel, but that's how a lot of people feel)



2) Nobody got in trouble for being exposed unless THEY openly exposed it (at least that I've heard of).



3) Then don't join the military if it's too much to handle.

4) Everyday life is obviously tough enough for gay people, if they can't mentally handle the realities of life as a soldier, they probably shouldn't consider trying to be one.



5) We don't need to go all the way back to Eden to understand that another man don't NEED to know if you are gay.

Weather a person likes penises or not has no effect on their ability to cover another soldier in the line of fire. Just do your duty, and worry about penises later.



6) Can't say I disagree with that at all.
1) Your going to War....do you think that will be comforting?? put it into perspective please Ask not what the Army can do for you...but what you can do for the Army

2) Oh I thought they got kicked out for being gay

3) I wouldnt join the military...but not for that reason...but for three reasons...firstly, I am too unhealthy, I'd never make it. Secondly, I really hate what they do in Basic Training...Its one of the most nasty psychological damage you can do...and when they get out, the military dont provide enough ways for the soldiers to re-integrate. Thirdly...I was so rudely insulted by one of their kind at a Jobs fair...when I wasnt even looking at his stand, I decided that I'd not volunteer to be put under someone like that.

I tried the Ministry of Defence, but thats really Government...they didnt want me...because when I was supposed to talk specifically about my part in a group work situation, I used the word "I" too much

4) Well I cant speak for all gays everywhere. Mentally I would have no trouble, psychologically, I'm pickled anyway so it wouldnt make much difference, but physically...I'd probably die

5) Eden was the first example that sprang to mind...and its "pansies" not "pensies" as in the flower

6) finally! success at last
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  #113  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:42 PM
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1) Your going to War....do you think that will be comforting?? put it into perspective please Ask not what the Army can do for you...but what you can do for the Army
I'm going to use terminology I know you understand and say..."bollocks"

Quote:
2) Oh I thought they got kicked out for being gay
To my knowledge it's only if they exposed it themselves....somebody please correct me on that if I am wrong...

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3) I wouldnt join the military...but not for that reason...but for three reasons...firstly, I am too unhealthy, I'd never make it. Secondly, I really hate what they do in Basic Training...Its one of the most nasty psychological damage you can do...and when they get out, the military dont provide enough ways for the soldiers to re-integrate. Thirdly...I was so rudely insulted by one of their kind at a Jobs fair...when I wasnt even looking at his stand, I decided that I'd not volunteer to be put under someone like that.

I tried the Ministry of Defence, but thats really Government...they didnt want me...because when I was supposed to talk specifically about my part in a group work situation, I used the word "I" too much
It's not for everybody. I wasn't really saying YOU specifically, just in general.

I didn't join the military either, although in retrospect that's exactly what I wish I had done when I had the chance.

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4) Well I cant speak for all gays everywhere. Mentally I would have no trouble, psychologically, I'm pickled anyway so it wouldnt make much difference, but physically...I'd probably die
I think you underestimate how strong the bodies that God has given us really are. If you really wanted to do it, I'm sure you'd be fine.

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5) Eden was the first example that sprang to mind...and its "pansies" not "pensies" as in the flower
Hey, whatever....just don't tell me about it!



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6) finally! success at last
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  #114  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:01 PM
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Okay time for the Devils advocate here.

1. There is a reason people like Ron Paul voted for this it is called the US Constitution. It is a voulenteer army and we should have all the same right under the law regardless of Race, Religion, or sadly choice of sexual partners. Till they amend the constitution to prohibit such an act they should have the exact smae rights under the US Constitution. Plain and simple.
You act like anyone can join the military. This is what I have found on the internet, if this not correct please tell me.

Congress and the courts have held that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which ensures all individuals are treated equally before the law with respect to civilian employment, does not apply to the military profession. No less than seven major Supreme Court decisions support this.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
I'm going to use terminology I know you understand and say..."bollocks"



To my knowledge it's only if they exposed it themselves....somebody please correct me on that if I am wrong...



It's not for everybody. I wasn't really saying YOU specifically, just in general.

I didn't join the military either, although in retrospect that's exactly what I wish I had done when I had the chance.



I think you underestimate how strong the bodies that God has given us really are. If you really wanted to do it, I'm sure you'd be fine.



Hey, whatever....just don't tell me about it!





I have no deep desire to join the Military...I wouldnt mind working in the civil Service, I wouldnt mind working for the Ministy of Defence...but I dont see myself being capable physically, of being in the Military...I know of people who have tried and failed, and they are far, far physically superior to I.
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  #116  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
You act like anyone can join the military. This is what I have found on the internet, if this not correct please tell me.

Congress and the courts have held that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which ensures all individuals are treated equally before the law with respect to civilian employment, does not apply to the military profession. No less than seven major Supreme Court decisions support this.
The Church of England is exempt from equality laws also. Which means they could legally stop someone of a different faith working for the church, or specify that those working must be Christian...it also means they have the right to sack people who are Homosexual...and probably people who committ adultory...I dont think they ever would...but legally they could if they so desired.

In the US you have a much diminished employment law compared to England, you have relatively few Unions, and so noone to guard the rights of individuals in the same way that you do in England...which I personally think is a requirement of big and political insitutions, that could, without checks and ballences, decided to sack you simply because they dont like you. In England its relatively hard to be sacked if a employee follows protocol...and one false slip on protocol within an insitution trying to get rid of someone, results in them never being able to rid themselves of them.

It means jobs are reasonable secure in England once you get one, presuming of course the company doesnt go bankrupt or get restructured or something. I have no idea how it is within the British Armed Services...I dont imagine they have have unions...but I also dont imagine without doing something wrong, they can easily looose their jobs either.
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  #117  
Old 12-25-2010, 01:40 AM
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So we talked about this in theory but how will this actually affect the barracks in reality?

Anyone know any Soldiers right now, I imagine it won't change much
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  #118  
Old 12-25-2010, 03:03 AM
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Stopped short of saying I was wrong though, didnt you Nathan.
I'm sorry, I thought it would be implied. To force a soldier to follow an order that violates his conscience is immoral and WRONG.

Not saying it doesn't happen in the military; but when you do it, you've essentially demoralized and dehumanized that soldier. That's not how you treat a person who has volunteered to temporarily suspend his freedoms to protect your freedoms.
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  #119  
Old 12-25-2010, 03:06 AM
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2) Oh I thought they got kicked out for being gay
Yes, but only if they openly admit to being gay. If they deny the charge then, unless they were caught in the act, they can't get kicked out. At least that's how it was under DADT.
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  #120  
Old 12-25-2010, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
You act like anyone can join the military. This is what I have found on the internet, if this not correct please tell me.

Congress and the courts have held that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which ensures all individuals are treated equally before the law with respect to civilian employment, does not apply to the military profession. No less than seven major Supreme Court decisions support this.
The military has to be exempt from many of the equal employment requirements. Most of the people who are not allowed to serve in the military are barred for obvious reasons: physical deformities, physical disabilities (deaf, blind, etc.), mentally handicapped, obese, etc.

Women are also barred from the combat arms roles in the Army, for obvious reasons. We're not talking about the jobs that just require you to sit in a truck and push a button. We're talking about the "throw a 50-pound rucksack over your back, along with your 20-pound flak vest, helmet, web gear, 200-rounds of ammunition, your rifle and walk 5 miles uphill.... quickly, because your life depends on it!" kind of jobs.

Thus, if the military leaders believe that allowing openly gay soldiers into the Army will compromise their mission effectiveness, then I would trust their judgement.

The military exists to do a job that only a few people are capable of doing, forcing them to treat everyone equally compromises their ability to do that job.
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