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  #101  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:53 AM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
Considering that I opened my home up to you during your first States trip and allowed you to stay with me for two whole weeks, I find this comment incredibly ironic and more than a little bit insulting.

Homosexuals are sick, not criminals. They need psychological counseling to cure this illness, which is never going to be possible as long as we're not even allowed to recognize it as a mental illness.
Do you remember what you said to me on the way home from your Church Nathan?

Yes you let me stay with you, and I am eternally Greatful to you for that...but you recall that I said to you on the way back after that discussion session that focused on your relationship with your Father...that I didnt feel it had been appropriate to tell them I was gay...you told me you were glad I had not said anything because if I had, I would have found myself put up in a hotel.

I guess being associated with me in close quarters is fine, because you know I'm not going to pounce on you or anything...but only fine so long as others in a Christian setting DO NOT KNOW the truth of my orientation.

Now I didnt find that insulting...because I can understand that, and I didnt want to make you feel uncomfortable...what I said about the treatment of gays in Assylums in this thread is true, and actually happened in England. I've been for counselling I dont know how many times...I have never tried psycho-sexual therapy or hypnotism though...one sounded dangerous, the other was far too expensive

I hope you dont hate me for what I wrote. I might have blown it out of proportion slightly...but that was to get you to recognise the point I'm trying to make. Not to insult you. I consider you one of my best friends on here actually (now that really might be ironic and insulting depending on how you take it )
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  #102  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:57 AM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
I thought they should be locked up.
I always had a hunch you were out to get me



thats such a scary thought I try not to think about it

Well I still like you anyway
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  #103  
Old 12-24-2010, 01:41 PM
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NateR NateR is offline
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1) niether is the inability to follow orders. If someone higher up the tree tells you to share rooms with a gay guy, you share rooms with a gay guy. Its really extremely simple
Again, spoken like someone who has never served in the military.
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  #104  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:15 PM
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I think they should of left it as it was.

But to be honest I know this has been passed into law but seriously how many will live out openly. I mean it is impossible to police everything and surely the banter will ensure people stay quiet on the subject.

no one likes a troublemaker and they will find themselves isolated soon enough.

I can only imagine some of the banter going round the barracks now with soldiers heckling one another saying that "they can come out now".

Everyone will be cracking jokes and your going to feel stupid making a big show and dance about being gay in such a macho lads atmosphere.

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  #105  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:28 PM
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Spoken like someone who has never served in the military. If this was true, then no one would qualify for military service.
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Again, spoken like someone who has never served in the military.
Enlighten me... help me understand. When you're in the military which orders are you obligated to follow? The ones given to you by people you like? People you align yourself with politically? Spiritually? Did they start segregating soldiers in common interest groups recently so only like minded soldiers are near each other?

You do realize in your 10 year career you've no doubt taken orders from a gay person..

You've probably slept in the same room as one!!

Good gracious I bet a gay man has probably seen you naked Nate!

But............................................... .................................................. ..

life went on right? The military still functioned right? Orders were still carried out right?

Amazing!



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Homosexuality is an unnatural perversion and those who practice it know this. They are living a lie and deep down they recognize that, so they are at war with their own minds.
Spoken like somebody who is completely ignorant of the subject. Your lack of understanding of who homosexual people are and how they function is sad really.

Homosexuality is a sin. ALL sin separates us from God. Satan is described as a deceiver, the Father of Lies... sin is related to darkness throughout Scripture. To think for a minute that all gay people are walking around with a clear understanding of the Truth and are just choosing to ignore it is ridiculous. I'm sure there are some that aren't deceived and walk in that lifestyle willingly but it's unrealistic to think they all do.



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In Romans 1:28, the Bible describes the homosexual mind as a "depraved mind." Thus, it's not logical to assume that a practicing homosexual can ever have a truly healthy mental state.
Can anybody who's separated from Christ?


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I wonder where as a society we would be if Christians spent as much time praying for homosexuals as they do condemning them?
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Originally Posted by NateR View Post
I don't know, but I sometimes wonder where we as a society would be if Christians actually stood up for truth, no matter how unpopular:
Does it have to be one or the other?

What truth do you want us to stand up for? That ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?

We can't just stand up for the truth in Scripture that justifies how we feel about a subject and ignore the rest of the truth can we?

You claim that all homosexuals know they are living a lie... well what does you pointing that out to them help? If a man is drowning in the ocean and all we do is point and say "hey, you're drowning" then shame on us!!!

Finding fault in people and showing them the "truth" about their actions is easy. Loving them, TRULY loving them in spite of it is hard.
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  #106  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:35 PM
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Again, spoken like someone who has never served in the military.
Stopped short of saying I was wrong though, didnt you Nathan.

You dont need to serve in order to understand basic principles like you do what your told.

Secondly...I might know more about the Military then you think, both from Study (particularly Military Ethics and Strategy) to others, like knowing people who are in the Military and having spoken to them about it. Most of my Teachers throughout my education were Ex-Forces, The discipline required of each person was quite spectacular...its even more like a Military School now. I have a Sister who works in the Army Foundation College (she used to work in a Prison) I live in close proximity to Menwith Hill Airbase (Its a U.S listening Station, I think part of Starwars infact)

I'm also an Extreme J on the myres-Briggs...I know all about codes, taxonomies, rules, structure, routine, regulation.

I dont pretend to be an expert on it...but simple things like doing what you are told and not complaining about it...thats not difficult to understand. The Chain of Command and following Orders is an easy concept to grasp...and because they do what needs to be done, and what they are told to do, and they risk everything to do that, I admire them....

...and I admire you, even if I dont aggree with you all the time, and even if you hate me for what I say sometimes...I hope you recognise that Nathan
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  #107  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:07 PM
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Okay time for the Devils advocate here.

1. There is a reason people like Ron Paul voted for this it is called the US Constitution. It is a voulenteer army and we should have all the same right under the law regardless of Race, Religion, or sadly choice of sexual partners. Till they amend the constitution to prohibit such an act they should have the exact smae rights under the US Constitution. Plain and simple. DOes nto mean we have to like it since it is a choice and not biological like race. But we forget religion is also a choice and frankly I would not want them banning Christian from the military because some solider was incomfortable because their room mate was a bible fearing, praying, saint of God.

2. I agree it destroys morale and it will. It took years before morale improved after they desegregated. But people will get used to it and will move on. They should however be required to say they are gay and be sperrated just as the Women are in sleeping arrangements and such.

3. No for my personal opinion- It is horrible and this is exactly what happened to Rome before the empire was destroted Welfare and gay military. History will repeat itslef and America will crumble apart form a revival of The Great Awakening magnatiude.
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  #108  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post
1) niether is the inability to follow orders. If someone higher up the tree tells you to share rooms with a gay guy, you share rooms with a gay guy. Its really extremely simple
I don't need to know he's gay....and you telling me he's gay, and that I have to sleep in the same room with him, just made me uncomfortable....see how that works?

(not saying that's how I personally feel, but that's how a lot of people feel)

Quote:
2) The problem isnt so much talking about it, as having to hide it. I wouldnt reccomend deep discussions, I just think that if someone is exposed that they shouldnt get in trouble for it. that now wont happen.
Nobody got in trouble for being exposed unless THEY openly exposed it (at least that I've heard of).

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3) I aggree. But living in fear can do more damage then stigma and rejection...at least thats what I think
Then don't join the military if it's too much to handle.

Everyday life is obviously tough enough for gay people, if they can't mentally handle the realities of life as a soldier, they probably shouldn't consider trying to be one.

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4) the point is, that relates directly to this scenario. If someone is frightened they are going to be found out, or if another has preconceived and actually unfounded views on a person...thats not good for soldier where trust and truth matter. Not telling the whole truth is as bad as telling a lie...after all, Lucifer didnt strictly speaking lie in Eden...he simply neglected to tell the whole truth. Had they eaten from the Tree of Life after the Tree of the Knowledge of Goodness and Evil, then they would have become like GOD...the Trinity discuss this and decide this is why Eden must be guarded after the explusion. All Lucifer did was neglect to expound on something...there eyes WERE opened after eating the Apple.

Now if you trust someone with your life, and you discover they have not told the whole truth...would you still trust them?
We don't need to go all the way back to Eden to understand that another man don't NEED to know if you are gay.

Weather a person likes penises or not has no effect on their ability to cover another soldier in the line of fire. Just do your duty, and worry about penises later.

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5) any abuse should be punished, inappropriate behaviour, disrepute, gross missconduct, verbal, physical, and sexual harrasment...that should go without saying. You should not need a charter to tell you that...you must expect that in any job you ever apply and accept. It is right and proper to abide by it.
Can't say I disagree with that at all.
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  #109  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:55 PM
Chris F
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Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
Enlighten me... help me understand. When you're in the military which orders are you obligated to follow? The ones given to you by people you like? People you align yourself with politically? Spiritually? Did they start segregating soldiers in common interest groups recently so only like minded soldiers are near each other? That is not the point here. The fact is these guys need to know that they can trust the man next to them with their life. Not saying all gays are this way or not but the fact is trust is an issue. If you are in combat you must be brothers in arms not worrying if they are gonna hit on you. History has already proved NateR is right on this subject.

You do realize in your 10 year career you've no doubt taken orders from a gay person.. Probably true but not the point officers these days don't seem to get their uniforms dirty much

You've probably slept in the same room as one!! Again not the poin

Good gracious I bet a gay man has probably seen you naked Nate!

But............................................... .................................................. ..

life went on right? The military still functioned right? Orders were still carried out right?

Amazing!A little sanctimonious are we? The fact is one cannot be grey in the truth it must be blaxk or white.





Spoken like somebody who is completely ignorant of the subject. Your lack of understanding of who homosexual people are and how they function is sad really. Actually till political correctness ran rampant this was the accepted truth and homosexuality was treated as a mental disorder. There is no science to back up the fact the homosexuality is anything more than a choice. Most of it stems from absent fathers and a daycare society. when they discover the gay gene than you will have an argument

Homosexuality is a sin. ALL sin separates us from God. Satan is described as a deceiver, the Father of Lies... sin is related to darkness throughout Scripture. To think for a minute that all gay people are walking around with a clear understanding of the Truth and are just choosing to ignore it is ridiculous. I'm sure there are some that aren't deceived and walk in that lifestyle willingly but it's unrealistic to think they all do.Sin is sin period and this sin is no different than any other and by your logic we are all walking around clueless to the truth and thus walk in sin oblivious to Gods truth. That may be true for some but the majority it is not




Can anybody who's separated from Christ?






Does it have to be one or the other?

What truth do you want us to stand up for? That ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? I think he is refering to the weak minded Christians who have watered down the truth to make it more appealing and thus making it null and void. We cannot accept open rebellion and call it normal

We can't just stand up for the truth in Scripture that justifies how we feel about a subject and ignore the rest of the truth can we?I do not see how NateR can be accused of this. He is an equal opportunity condemner except for some personal subjects that he chooses to have a blind eye to proper hermeneutics

You claim that all homosexuals know they are living a lie... well what does you pointing that out to them help? If a man is drowning in the ocean and all we do is point and say "hey, you're drowning" then shame on us!!! This has nothing to do wiht the politics of the situation. I doubt NateR would turn down a bible study with a gay man or woman. It does not change the fact it is still wrong. That is a straw man and you know it Chuck

Finding fault in people and showing them the "truth" about their actions is easy. Loving them, TRULY loving them in spite of it is hard.
Sure it is easier to point out short falls Chuck than loving them. But by your logic here you want Nate R to love their sin and that is never biblical. I am sure NateR can defend his personal POV fine I just wanted to respond to some of your reasoning. However you may be simply asking question like you tend to do and not actually making a point here. If this is your point than it cannot be supported by scripture anywhere.
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  #110  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:16 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
Okay time for the Devils advocate here.

1. There is a reason people like Ron Paul voted for this it is called the US Constitution. It is a voulenteer army and we should have all the same right under the law regardless of Race, Religion, or sadly choice of sexual partners. Till they amend the constitution to prohibit such an act they should have the exact smae rights under the US Constitution. Plain and simple. DOes nto mean we have to like it since it is a choice and not biological like race. But we forget religion is also a choice and frankly I would not want them banning Christian from the military because some solider was incomfortable because their room mate was a bible fearing, praying, saint of God.

2. I agree it destroys morale and it will. It took years before morale improved after they desegregated. But people will get used to it and will move on. They should however be required to say they are gay and be sperrated just as the Women are in sleeping arrangements and such.

3. No for my personal opinion- It is horrible and this is exactly what happened to Rome before the empire was destroted Welfare and gay military. History will repeat itslef and America will crumble apart form a revival of The Great Awakening magnatiude.
1) aggree
2) I would have no objection to this
3) dissagree. It was standard procedure for men to be with boys...I dont really know why, but it was prevelent in Greek Society also. One of the big Reasons Saint Paul may have mention this specifically in his letters, is because at the time he was tackling a major social situation...not like today...but where Hetrosexual Men, with families, also had some kinda boy, and it at the very least loving, at the very most sexual. But that has nothing to do with the Fall of Rome...infact the Roman Army had nothing to do with the Fall of Rome...Rome got to big, and despite a plea by the Emporar to unite in Faith...it wasnt enough, and the Empire Fragmented into two...one was Rome, one was known as Byzantine...for a while not even did they have separate Emporars...but even separate Popes!

I dont think America will crumble because of this. I think she might end up not being a super power by the end of the next decade, or at least not the only one...but I dont see this being her destruction.
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