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Old 02-17-2010, 07:52 PM
annamal
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Default Resurrection of holy people. Matthew 27

Matthew 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of the many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Freaky, so all these previously dead holy people woke up and hung around the tombs I guess until Sunday and then went into the city. I know most christians believe people go straight to heaven or hell after they die. So did God send these holy people back to earth from heaven? Did they continue to live until they died again, or did they just return to the grave after appearing to many people? Doesn't it make more sense to believe what the Bible says about when people die they go to sleep until the second coming? So the dead holy people were only woken up from death? And why didn't Jesus go to heaven after he died? He didn't, he stayed asleep until the resurrection. How could the religious leaders possibly have kept this a secret from people. I know they bribed the soldiers guarding the tomb into lying and saying the disciples stole Jesus' body while they slept, but surely they couldn't have hid all these dead people brought back to life.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:52 PM
Chris F
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Originally Posted by annamal View Post
Matthew 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of the many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Freaky, so all these previously dead holy people woke up and hung around the tombs I guess until Sunday and then went into the city. I know most christians believe people go straight to heaven or hell after they die. So did God send these holy people back to earth from heaven? Did they continue to live until they died again, or did they just return to the grave after appearing to many people? Doesn't it make more sense to believe what the Bible says about when people die they go to sleep until the second coming? So the dead holy people were only woken up from death? And why didn't Jesus go to heaven after he died? He didn't, he stayed asleep until the resurrection. How could the religious leaders possibly have kept this a secret from people. I know they bribed the soldiers guarding the tomb into lying and saying the disciples stole Jesus' body while they slept, but surely they couldn't have hid all these dead people brought back to life.
At death one goes to paradise and remains their till either the Judgement seat of Christ (believers) or the Great White Throne Judgement (non-believers) At that time this is when hell is created for Satan and his minions. Right now Satan is on earth seeking whom he may devour not in hell. The parable Jesus taught about the rich man and Lazarus best describes this. Lazarus was in Abraham's bossom while the rich man was being tormented across the divide. The key is they could see each other. SO unless one believes heaven and hell are the same place then obviously paradise is more like a waiting room.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:58 AM
Rackin
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Originally Posted by Chris F View Post
At death one goes to paradise and remains their till either the Judgement seat of Christ (believers) or the Great White Throne Judgement (non-believers) At that time this is when hell is created for Satan and his minions. Right now Satan is on earth seeking whom he may devour not in hell. The parable Jesus taught about the rich man and Lazarus best describes this. Lazarus was in Abraham's bossom while the rich man was being tormented across the divide. The key is they could see each other. SO unless one believes heaven and hell are the same place then obviously paradise is more like a waiting room.
The only addition I would make to this is that Abraham's bosom stopped having meaning after Christs Resurrection. All those who were waiting for the coming messiah are now with the Lord which is now where all believers go. Non-believers would still go to the punishment portion of the parable.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:28 AM
annamal
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Huh?OK you've totally lost me. Paradise and Heaven aren't the same thing? Abraham's bosom is a place? I thought it was just a metaphor. Could you tell me where that parable is? I'm familiar with the story of Lazarus, or at least I thought I was, but I don't recall him being used in a parable with a rich man.
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Old 02-19-2010, 05:48 PM
Chris F
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Luke 16:19-31

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "



The main point of this story is predicting Jesus will raise from the dead but many will still not believe an repent. But Jesus gave us a glimpse of what happens after death with this story. As you can see there are differing opinions. I disagree with Rackin because there is no biblical support for his statement. But Revelation speaks clearly of the final day when saint and sinners are judged and cast down or welcomed into heaven. I think Rackin is thinking the verses where Jesus preached to the saint who died before him became saved after his Resurrection. This is true but it does not say anything about them going to heaven or those who rejected him going to hell. That is not addressed till revelation. But since it is not a salvation issue it is something we can disagree on civilly.
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:35 PM
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okay...there is a few things we can say here. We know that those who woke up during the Crucifixition-ressurection appeared in their spiritual bodies (like what Christ did after he rose) we know that those can exist and interact with the temporal and have substance (For Christ did for forty days of Easter)

How do we know this about those who woke up?? Becuase there is no mention of it in Chronology outside of the Bible...and I assure you that meant the deceased looked perfectly normal. Think about what historians would have written down if all these people were raised like Lazarus in the earthly body...one must remember, Lazarus had not been dead to long...but some of the Saints will have been asleep for possibly hundreds of years....they aint gonna be walking around in the centre of the capital city and going unnoticed UNLESS they look normal...that is to say, they look visually alright to behold.

I want to add a music video here because I find it so compelling LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz8iRFv9su0

The problem with what Pastor Chris has told you is that once you are dead, you go into the spiritual realm, and time has no real meaning. When you die, you effectively step outside of time...so "waiting" for Judgement, is a foolish notion that is only of use to the people like us living in the temporal world...for those who have died...Judgement will seem to happen right away. In essence, I reckon Judgement happens during the millenial reign, so I think that people are dead a very long time if you look at Chronology...Chronologically speaking everyone is still waiting for judgement...but in reality, because of the spiritual realm, people die and go right to the end, right to judgement.

I also believe Hell existed, and will exist again. Let me explain. the definition of Hell is the absence of GOD. Lucifer may be on earth, he doesnt need to be in Hell to make Hell realized. BUT Hell cant exist if GOD were to invade it, which is what would have happened logically after the death of Christ.

Christ died with the sins of the world, a sinful person goes to hell...but if GOD goes to Hell, Hell ceases to exist because itd defined by His absence. Rather what probably exists after the Crucifixition is a GOD constructed Hell known as "the abyss" its the place where Lucifer keeps getting locked up in during the End Times. At the end of time, Hell, being the collective name for the Abyss where all those who have sinned are effectively locked up, is distroyed by Fire (Fire is often used by GOD as a way to purify)

Hell is Finite. After Judgement is concluded, there is no more Hell, it is burned up, and all who are in it to everlasting nothingness I supose.
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Old 02-19-2010, 07:19 PM
annamal
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OK there are definately some new concepts here I have never heard of and am having trouble wrapping my mind around. I think I'm more confused than ever. But that's OK I don't expect to understand everything at once. I'll have to ponder this one awhile. Thanks for your help.
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