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Old 03-20-2011, 12:03 AM
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Vizion Vizion is offline
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Default Free will - God chooses us, not the other way around

We choose to follow God when He calls us, or not. But I was listening to a preacher cite verse after verse in scripture about how God chooses us before we choose Him.

I never knew that, but find that interesting. Jesus chose His disciples, not the other way around.

Anyone have any insight?
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:17 AM
Chris F
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God chooses us because he knows who and who will not accept the free gift. But ultimatily we must have a free will or else one would have ot say God created people doomed ot hell and Jesus' sacrafice was not for all but only those God chose and the rest he chose to send to hell. Because God is soverign he already knows but he is not a puppet master and makes no man follow him who does not want to. I have heard it preach many ways from both sides and it is an issue one is better to make their own personal election sure by living a righteous life and let God decide the result.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:43 PM
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God chooses us because he knows who and who will not accept the free gift. But ultimatily we must have a free will or else one would have ot say God created people doomed ot hell and Jesus' sacrafice was not for all but only those God chose and the rest he chose to send to hell. Because God is soverign he already knows but he is not a puppet master and makes no man follow him who does not want to. I have heard it preach many ways from both sides and it is an issue one is better to make their own personal election sure by living a righteous life and let God decide the result.
I thought you were a believer in TULIP

Basically I aggree. GOD Knows who makes it and who doesnt, prior to it all. BUT GOD allows those people to either take up or reject the gift, and thus choose for themself

Thats the ballence I reckon...with some slight exceptions...Mary was probably an exception...the Disciples were probably Exceptions...Judus was possibly supernaturally forced into betrayal...because Jesus HAD to end up dead in order to ressurect....

But other then those...and maybe some prophets...I certainly wouldnt use predestiny as a guiding principle in general (if you pardon the pun )
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:55 PM
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Done a weekend away with church on predestination.

Very very complicated to get my head around - God controls everything and he chooses us but we also have that free will to reject or accept him. But if he is coming for you - he changes your heart to accept him.


He is no puppet master.

Been in john 13-14 and it does make me feel for Judas - same for Pilate and the chief preist. They had to do it to fulfil the Lords divine plan. It throws me but then you see before Judas betrays Jesus that his heart wants to steal the money as well so perhaps he was evil anyway.

Tricky stuff but certainly nothing to make one waiver from faith - just an interesting one to wrestle with.

God is sovereign.
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:58 AM
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Default How do I know I am Elect?

When people first begin to learn about the biblical doctrine of election, one question that often occurs to them is, “Am I elect?” And the more they think about whether or not they are elect, the more uncertain they become. So, if you believe in the doctrine of election, how do you know if you are elect?

The answer is really quite simple: You continue believing in Christ.

“But,” you reply, “you didn’t answer my question. I want to know if I am elect.”

So I will ask:

* Do you believe that you have offended the all-holy Creator (Rom. 3:10�18; Ps. 51:1�4)?
* Do you believe that your sins cry out to heaven itself for justice, and that you deserve to perish under the wrath of the God you have offended by your sins (Isa. 59:2�3; Ezek. 18:4)?
* Do you believe that you are, in fact, dead in your sins and unable to make yourself alive (Eph. 2:1�3; Rom. 8:5�8)?
* Do you believe that nothing you could ever do�no good deeds, no mighty acts of faith, no church attendance, no niceness of character�will ever be sufficient to appease the wrath of your holy Creator against your sins (Mic. 6:6�7; Isa. 59:12�14)?
* Do you believe that God, the God you have offended by your sins, has himself provided the way of escape through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5�7; Col. 2:13)?
* Have you been united to Christ by faith, a faith you did not earn, but received as a gift from God? Do you believe that, having been savingly joined by faith to the Son of God, your sins are finally and fully paid for, and that you are forgiven and declared righteous, as though you had never sinned (Gal. 2:16, 20; Rom. 8:1�4)?
* Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity�that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21�28; 5:1�11)?

If you believe these things, you are exhibiting a key characteristic of the elect: the elect believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and continue in faith. The elect do not focus on their election, but rather on their Savior. The elect are saved from the wrath to come because God has chosen them to salvation through Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:9�10; cf. 2 Thess. 2:13). And that is what the gospel promises as well: the one who believes in the Son has eternal life and escapes the wrath of God (John 3:36).

Think back to the day of Pentecost. In Acts 2, we find Peter directing the crowds to consider, not election, but the Lord of glory whom they crucified. The elect will believe the gospel, but the reprobate will turn away from the gospel.

Paul points to the same truth in his great exposition of the blessings of election in Ephesians 1. But note what he says: “For he chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (vss. 4�5). Paul talks about election with reference to Jesus Christ. And we know Christ through the gospel.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:52 AM
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one is better to make their own personal election sure by living a righteous life and let God decide the result.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:48 PM
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One day my son asked me why does God allows people to choose good or evil, heaven or hell. I thought about it for a while because I really didn't know what to say. What I came up with is that God chooses us and shows us love upon our creation. Then He desires for us to love Him back by choosing Him and obeying His commands. God wants us to love Him by choice, not by force.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:09 PM
Maglorius
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Here's my take on God's love and an example of how I see it work in peoples lives and I guess how he chooses.

Lately I have been really reflecting on the action of a person hardening his heart toward God and how one softens his heart toward God. I have a easy time seeing how one hardens his own heart since we are sinful, and really cannot see how one softens his heart without Gods direct interaction. The best scenario in the bible to examine this is in Exodus and the account of Pharaoh and Moses. When you read it at first glance and you read passages of God hardening pharaohs heart you wonder how did God harden his heart. It seems like God is turning a switch and one minute Pharaohs heart is hard and than soft and than hard again. So what is really going on here. Really in the end, what hardens Pharaohs heart is Gods love and grace. After Moses first encounter with Pharaoh and his first warnings to him, God could have cut him down right than and there, but he didn't. God gave Pharaoh another chance and than another chance and so forth. God poured his love and grace over pharaoh and it hardened pharaohs heart.

Through the preaching of his word Gods love and grace is proclaimed to the world. His word is living and has power, some when they hear, their hearts are softened and repent and believe(Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.) While others when they hear and experience Gods love and grace, the opposite happens and their hearts are hardened.

That is what I am wrestling with at the moment.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maglorius View Post
Here's my take on God's love and an example of how I see it work in peoples lives and I guess how he chooses.

Lately I have been really reflecting on the action of a person hardening his heart toward God and how one softens his heart toward God. I have a easy time seeing how one hardens his own heart since we are sinful, and really cannot see how one softens his heart without Gods direct interaction. The best scenario in the bible to examine this is in Exodus and the account of Pharaoh and Moses. When you read it at first glance and you read passages of God hardening pharaohs heart you wonder how did God harden his heart. It seems like God is turning a switch and one minute Pharaohs heart is hard and than soft and than hard again. So what is really going on here. Really in the end, what hardens Pharaohs heart is Gods love and grace. After Moses first encounter with Pharaoh and his first warnings to him, God could have cut him down right than and there, but he didn't. God gave Pharaoh another chance and than another chance and so forth. God poured his love and grace over pharaoh and it hardened pharaohs heart.
Through the preaching of his word Gods love and grace is proclaimed to the world. His word is living and has power, some when they hear, their hearts are softened and repent and believe(Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.) While others when they hear and experience Gods love and grace, the opposite happens and their hearts are hardened.

That is what I am wrestling with at the moment.
Agreed!

I struggle with the whole irresistible grace issue. Because I have known and witnessed others who have experienced Gods love and grace and have totally rejected it.
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:34 PM
Chris F
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For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
that has nothing to do with it. Your salvation is in Cross alone. Righteousness is your job.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall 2 Peter 1:10

SO get your facts sure before you try calling me out!!!!!
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