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Old 04-09-2009, 01:10 AM
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Default Americans don't copy the British healthcare sytem

Americans! Don't copy the British healthcare system!

Posted By: Daniel Hannan at Apr 6, 2009 at 20:44:17

It's difficult not to warm to John Prescott. As part of a Labour Government that lived from headline to headline, he added a dash of authenticity. He may have been oafish, but he was reassuringly human.

Prescott is trying to fabricate a row out of my interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News, in which I warned Americans against adopting a socialist healthcare system along British lines. You can watch the old bruiser here. (If you're an American who likes to imagine that the British are eloquent, please ignore that last hyperlink.)

I wonder whether anyone still falls for this sort of stuff. For a long time, Labour politicians had two slogans which they would trot out whenever healthcare came up: "Envy Of The World" and "Free At The Point Of Use". These phrases were not intended to be arguments. Rather, they were ways of playing your trump, of closing down the debate.

Prezza uses both (or, rather, a mangled version of each). The NHS, he says, is Britain's "greatest creation". Really? Greater than parliamentary democracy? Greater than penicillin? Greater than the discovery of DNA, or the abolition of slavery, or the common law? John, the NHS produces some of the worst health outcomes in the industrialised world. Britain is the Western state where you'd least want to have cancer or a stroke or heart disease. Ours is now a country where thousands of people are killed in hospitals for reasons unrelated to their original condition. If this is our "greatest creation", Heaven help us.

As for the second slogan, which Prezza renders as "need and not ability to pay", there is no health system in Europe or North America that leaves the indigent untended. What is at issue is not whether we force poor people to pay, but whether we prevent wealthier people from doing so. The British system treats everyone equally, it's true: we queue equally, we wait weeks for operations equally, we are expected to be equally grateful for any attention we get.

Outside Westminster, the old incantations are losing their magic. Envy Of The World is no longer a charm to ward off criticism. People can see for themselves that Britain has become a place where foreigners fear to fall ill. Yes, all three parties are committed to the NHS: I am a humble backbencher, and speak only for myself. But I wonder whether, as on tax and borrowing, public opinion hasn't overtaken the Westminster consensus.

Let me put it like this. Imagine that, in 1945, we had created a National Food Service. Suppose that, in the name of "fairness" and "need and not ability to pay", sustenance had been rationed by the state. Conjecture that every citizen had been allocated one butcher, one baker, one café and so on. We all know where that would have led: to bureaucracy, to duplication, to surpluses in one field and scarcity in another, to racketeering, to hunger. No one, not even Prescott, is suggesting that we socialise food distribution - even though food is at least as basic human need as healthcare. As those Americans of whom you seem so contemptuous might put it, John, go figure.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:27 AM
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I spent ten years in the Army and if that's what we can expect from socialized medicine then I want no part of it. Of course if the government can barely handle providing healthcare to 500,000 active duty soldiers, their families and surviving veterans, then what's it going to do when it has to handle 300 million people?

The government can't even run the Post Office. In case you didn't know the Post Office is in serious financial trouble and they're something like $11 billion in debt. But I guess it's a good thing that stuff like heart and brain surgery aren't nearly as complicated and putting a box on a truck and driving it from point A to point B.

I'd say that we survived over 200 years without nationalized healthcare (not only survived, but we became the strongest nation in the world), there's no reason that we suddenly need it now.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:36 AM
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In case you didn't know the Post Office is in serious financial trouble and they're something like $11 billion in debt.
sounds like me except i'm 10 billion in debt.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hughes_GOAT
Prescott is trying to fabricate a row out of my interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News, in which I warned Americans against adopting a socialist healthcare system along British lines.

...there is no health system in Europe or North America that leaves the indigent untended.
False

And first, since this deals with politicians and government it should be in the Politics section.


But
Off the top of my head I can recall two stories of people being left without care; one where a 2 week old infant died while driving from one hospital after being refused care from another because she didn't have a certain health care provider, and another when a farmer lost 2 fingers but could only afford to sew one of them back on.

Plus, my buddy was also refused care because of his insurance and had to drive 25 minutes to a different hospital with a 4" shard of glass in his wrist.

I am in Colombia right now for work and there are medicines here that cost me and my family $500 a month that I can get here for about 400 Colombian Pesos (about $0.15) because they don't have crooked insurance companies running their country.

More untended indigent:
My mom worked for an insurance company for about 2 years and her job was to investigate peoples medical history to find out if they had any medical conditions in their past and failed to reported them, this way the insurance company can use these as an excuse to not provide care. This includes failing to remember that you had pneumonia when you were 6 on those little forms you fill out on your first day of work.

If you have a kid, and it is 100% healthy, and doesn't need any emergency care, you could still walk out with a $1,000 bill. Have fun if it is premature or needs intensive care or you need a c-section etc.


The problem in America is these insurance companies literally running the country. They have a lot of crooked politicians in their pocket, so its not going to be easy to change.


But I don't think we should go 100% socialist, I think we should get rid of all socialist programs in America. Starting with the police, fire department, ambulance services and the post office.


3... 2... 1... FLAME ON:
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConcretekid
Starting with the police, fire department, ambulance services and the post office.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConcretekid
3... 2... 1... FLAME ON:
Don't worry, some posts are just too blatantly stupid for the intelligent ones to waste their time on.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:25 PM
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You where doing good until that last tid bit there...

Sounded real good and then BAM! it's retarded
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:42 PM
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I could probably come up with a million sob stories for why we supposedly need socialized healthcare. My mom is an epileptic and I remember food being pretty scarce in our house as a kid because her medication was so expensive. Then my dad got his neck broken in a car accident and suddenly there were no adults in our house who could work and we were living off of worker's compensation. Eventually, my brother and I had to take jobs during the summer just we could survive.

However, I still think it's a horrible idea for the government to take over healthcare, because I know that it doesn't work.

They can't even competently run the healthcare that they've promised to our soldiers and veterans. There's no way that they are going to be able to take care of the entire American population.

People also need to learn a measure of self-sufficiency, if you run to the doctor every time you get a sniffle, then of course your healthcare costs are going to be through the roof. Most people can solve their own health issues just by exercising, eating right, not smoking, not drinking in excess and NOT over medicating themselves when they do get sick.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateR
I could probably come up with a million sob stories for why we supposedly need socialized healthcare. My mom is an epileptic and I remember food being pretty scarce in our house as a kid because her medication was so expensive. Then my dad got his neck broken in a car accident and suddenly there were no adults in our house who could work and we were living off of worker's compensation. Eventually, my brother and I had to take jobs during the summer just we could survive.

However, I still think it's a horrible idea for the government to take over healthcare, because I know that it doesn't work.

They can't even competently run the healthcare that they've promised to our soldiers and veterans. There's no way that they are going to be able to take care of the entire American population.

People also need to learn a measure of self-sufficiency, if you run to the doctor every time you get a sniffle, then of course your healthcare costs are going to be through the roof. Most people can solve their own health issues just by exercising, eating right, not smoking, not drinking in excess and NOT over medicating themselves when they do get sick.
Amen to that Nate!! I am a Medical Claims Examiner and just can't believe some of the things I process and REJECT daily!!
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughes_GOAT
Americans! Don't copy the British healthcare system!

Posted By: Daniel Hannan at Apr 6, 2009 at 20:44:17

It's difficult not to warm to John Prescott. As part of a Labour Government that lived from headline to headline, he added a dash of authenticity. He may have been oafish, but he was reassuringly human.

Prescott is trying to fabricate a row out of my interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News, in which I warned Americans against adopting a socialist healthcare system along British lines. You can watch the old bruiser here. (If you're an American who likes to imagine that the British are eloquent, please ignore that last hyperlink.)

I wonder whether anyone still falls for this sort of stuff. For a long time, Labour politicians had two slogans which they would trot out whenever healthcare came up: "Envy Of The World" and "Free At The Point Of Use". These phrases were not intended to be arguments. Rather, they were ways of playing your trump, of closing down the debate.

Prezza uses both (or, rather, a mangled version of each). The NHS, he says, is Britain's "greatest creation". Really? Greater than parliamentary democracy? Greater than penicillin? Greater than the discovery of DNA, or the abolition of slavery, or the common law? John, the NHS produces some of the worst health outcomes in the industrialised world. Britain is the Western state where you'd least want to have cancer or a stroke or heart disease. Ours is now a country where thousands of people are killed in hospitals for reasons unrelated to their original condition. If this is our "greatest creation", Heaven help us.

As for the second slogan, which Prezza renders as "need and not ability to pay", there is no health system in Europe or North America that leaves the indigent untended. What is at issue is not whether we force poor people to pay, but whether we prevent wealthier people from doing so. The British system treats everyone equally, it's true: we queue equally, we wait weeks for operations equally, we are expected to be equally grateful for any attention we get.

Outside Westminster, the old incantations are losing their magic. Envy Of The World is no longer a charm to ward off criticism. People can see for themselves that Britain has become a place where foreigners fear to fall ill. Yes, all three parties are committed to the NHS: I am a humble backbencher, and speak only for myself. But I wonder whether, as on tax and borrowing, public opinion hasn't overtaken the Westminster consensus.

Let me put it like this. Imagine that, in 1945, we had created a National Food Service. Suppose that, in the name of "fairness" and "need and not ability to pay", sustenance had been rationed by the state. Conjecture that every citizen had been allocated one butcher, one baker, one café and so on. We all know where that would have led: to bureaucracy, to duplication, to surpluses in one field and scarcity in another, to racketeering, to hunger. No one, not even Prescott, is suggesting that we socialise food distribution - even though food is at least as basic human need as healthcare. As those Americans of whom you seem so contemptuous might put it, John, go figure.
Labour didnt invent the National Health Service.

Its been around for years...and they did better then the Conservatives and the great bed shortage of the early 1990s
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