Originally Posted by Tyburn
....I suppose that you would say those people have been ellected..No?
Regardless of what horrors and evils they committed you would suppose they were destined for Heaven prior to birth...I suppose it was GODs plan to reveal himself to them, and for him to do that, they needed to commit all those crimes in order to see they needed saving?
What about if you "refuse to associate yourself" with liars, adultorers, homosexuals. Most of us will never come into contact with murderers, and probably not with rapists...but we all come into connection with people whose lifestyles in some way involve committing sin. If we associate ourselves with them...will it not spoil our witness? How can we witness to the world, if we then become friends with those knee deep with sin inpepetua?
If you have to keep up a reputation of being GODly and Christian, and you deliberately go out of your way to avoid them, so as to appear more Christlike...is that a sin Nathan? Where do we draw the line between wanting to witness to the world, if that is the ministry GOD has selected for us, and doing his Will, which may also consist of engaging with, and be seen with, those the world would consider not good company for Christians?
Here is another thing...Those people had their "conversions" whilst safely locked up. Would you have been willing to have let them out as an act of forgiveness, to proove that they would be able to "go and sin no more"
Of course, they were elect. But what's really going to be tough for you to wrap your head around is that undoubtedly many of their victims are in Hell right now. This means that GOD not only chose Jeffery Dahmer before he committed a single murder, but He knew that His chosen would commit every single one of those murders and consign several souls to eternal damnation before He ever chose him. In fact, GOD knew all this before He even created Jeffery Dahmer.
Did you think those murders Jeffery Dahmer committed happened while GOD was somehow asleep at the switch? In your second post, you ask "Does your God really do that Nathan?" Well, I would say that my GOD is the GOD of the Bible and He would never fall asleep at the switch. So, I guess that just leaves the question of would "your God" do that?
Anyways, the Bible tells us to refuse to associate with people who claim to be believers and live immoral lives. So, a man who claims to be a Christian but is actively cheating on his wife should be confronted and ultimately kicked out of the church if he refuses to confess his sins and ask GOD for forgiveness. A man who thinks that he can live an active life as a homosexual and still be a Christian, should be similarly shunned by the Church. That's pretty clearly commanded in the Bible.
However, we are not supposed to refuse to associate with non-believers just because of their lifestyle; but they cannot become Christians unless they first leave that lifestyle behind.
David Burkowitz is still alive and believes it is his duty to serve out his sentence. He is probably doing more good for the Kingdom of GOD inside prison than he would be outside of prison.
I believe anyone who truly converted to Christ in prison, should be resolved to serve out their sentence and pay their debt to society. If a convict becomes a Christian and immediately says, "Okay, I'm a Christian now, I'm a different person, you should let me out now." Well, then that is the first clue that their conversion was not real and they are simply looking for a loophole to get out of paying for their crimes.
Originally Posted by Tyburn
If GOD has Truely Selected those who will live and those who will die, and they have NO choice but to heed the call...then...though we know not what his criteria may be...GOD is running a Meritocracy...those who he chooses are far more important then those who he discards...because he has chosen them for everlasting favour.
You may reply that as you can not distinguish the criteria and whose in and whose out, you can not assume you are better then others, incase it turns out they are chosen to.
You may also say that as all deserve to be discarded we should be grateful that he calls anyone.
Both are true...but both do not rule out the main point.
IF GOD has chosen, their is a heirachy, a criteria and a benchmark...those that make the grade and are called, and those who do not. Ergo...to be chosen is to be of worth.....and to be eternally damned is to be devoid of value.
Does your God really do that Nathan?
Well, first of all, the rules that apply to human beings don't apply to GOD. If a man angers GOD and GOD takes his life, that's not murder. If a man angers me and I take his life, then that would be murder. Why? Because I'm not GOD. GOD gave life to that man, so He can take that life back anytime He wants to. I have no power to give life to anyone, thus it is not my right to take someone's life for my personal satisfaction. Would it be a sin for GOD to steal? Well, actually it would be impossible for GOD to steal, because if you already own everything in existence, then how can you steal from yourself? Laws are for us, not GOD. GOD is above the law.
So, if GOD decided to run a meritocracy, then it would be fine, because He's GOD and that's His prerogative. However, GOD is no respecter of persons, so GOD doesn't run a meritocracy. In fact, GOD tends to choose those who we would consider to be the scum of the earth:
I Corinthians 1:26-29
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
That's grace and the complete opposite of a meritocracy.