Originally Posted by NateR
1) It's interesting that you bring up the "choose life" passage (Deuteronomy 30:19) because taken within context, that quote doesn't contradict the doctrine of election at all:
Who is speaking in that passage? Moses. Did Moses choose GOD or did GOD choose Moses? Obviously, GOD chose Moses, despite Moses' reluctance and attempts to convince GOD that he was not the right choice. Did GOD give Moses the option to refuse to lead Israel out of Egypt? Not really. Moses kept coming up with excuses for why he couldn't do it; but GOD refused to let him back out.
Who was Moses speaking to? The nation of Israel, the Chosen People, GOD's Elect. Of course, not everyone in the nation of Israel was loyal to GOD, which shows us that there is still an element of free will within those who are elect. GOD took Israel out of Egypt even though not all of them wanted to leave Egypt (which is why they kept trying to go back). So, in that sense, GOD's election had been superseding their free will for years by the time Moses made this speech.
2) Did Moses give this speech to the pagan nations that inhabited Israel at the time? No, because GOD had already commanded that those people be exterminated. If you read the accounts in the book of Joshua, none of them were given the option to repent. That doesn't mean that there weren't elect within those cities (Rahab from Jericho is the most obvious example); but as a whole, the cities were not given the opportunity to turn from their wickedness before their total destruction (contrast that with Jonah and the Ninevites). Thus, the purging of the Holy Land gives us a very graphic illustration of GOD's election at work.
3) Just because GOD doesn't want to send people to Hell doesn't mean that He won't send people to Hell. Also, there are plenty of commands that we are given that we are incapable of understanding completely. It's foolishness to think that we, with our limited, finite brains, could ever fully comprehend the actions of an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent being.
4) Nobody has yet to come up with any convincing Scriptural evidence against election.
5) Anyways, this is all I will say on the matter for now, because we've hijacked PTM's thread long enough. If you want to resurrect the Doctrine of Election thread in the Christianity section, then I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion with you.
1) GOD didnt even "choose" Moses to Enter the Promised Land....Tell me Nathan...Do you believe that all political and military leaders are "chosen" Just because Moses seemed to have a dramatic relationship with GOD....Of course not...to do so would lead you to be against the American Revolution....and would praise Barack Obama far more then I'm betting your willing to do...not least it would force you to say that Adolf Hitler also was "chosen" If you look at his campaign you can even SEE the demonic Whispers, because all the military men are so confused by Adolfs sudden idiotic ideas on military strategy at every key event. Course no doubt to you...he is a "vessil destined for destruction" or at least thats the English translation...I doubt you know the true origin for the word "destruction" in the original, nor how far different definitions might change that whole pragmatical sentance
Moses is speaking on behalf of GOD, therefore GOD is speaking, not Moses.
2) Did they exterminate those other tribes? its said that GOD kept some tribes before israel went into Egypt, to keep them in toe. Did GOD know that they would not obay him, and did he plan for that adequetly...oh yes, indeed. So despite the fact they were "chosen" he knew they would ignore him, and even went as far as planning to do things with these nations to keep Israel inline.
He plans around our free will, he doesnt seem to dictate. He suggests, and then plans for which suggestions he knows we will ignore. Thats not the same thing, its interactive, rather then preordained. Thats how a personal GOD would work of course. thats how relationships flourish and grow
3) He will send people to hell, because he respects their freewill. if they do not wish to spend eternity with him, do not wish to take up his personally very costly offer, which is free to them...he WONT preordain the outcome he desires
but you can continue to hide behind "he knows best" if to follow the logic will break your dogma.
4) Trying to explain away passages like that deuteronomy...like repent for the Kingdom of GOD is near (even though you cant repent coz I have preordained you without that ability for yourself)....like knock and the door shall be opened unto you (but only if I decide you can be in my club) are real enough. To try and claim we dont understand their true meaning, thus your predestiny dogma must be correct is not the same as their being no scriptural counter to your argument.
5) Yes, because he seems really everso publically vocal and bothered by it
We certainly do not need to open up old threads on this subject. This has been more then enough
Now back to telling snobby kids they are scum