Originally Posted by Tyburn
1) We're not asking if its something GOD "could" do...we are asking if its something GOD "would" do...and we know, even from the old testament that the answer to that is no...even in the midst of giving the law, GOD presents the following of it, to even those he has "chosen" as a Decision for them...he also says that he does not desire the death of any sinner....
if he doesnt desire the death of any sinner, then how can you claim he has designed some sinners for Hell...that undermines what he says even when giving the law...which is designed to show us we will fail alone!!!
See I set before you blessings and curses...I call heaven and earth as witnesses...Choose life....
Sorry but that is undeniable...and if he is saying that to his chosen race...dont forget just coz he chose the Jews doesnt mean they all make it!! he calls them a "Rebellious house" what?? if they had no choice they would be unable to rebel...and thats dealing with a people WE KNOW are ellect...not a pauline assertion...Paul uses the word Faith...when the true translation of the word doesnt involve any "faith" at all...but an absolute certainty...The word Faith is the same as Title Deed...as is, legal deeds of ownership....thats not to be confused with mere hope of things unseen...I dont blame Paul...but I do say the translation of the pauline texts are so poor they CREATE paradoxes that allow arguments like this to occure
2) GODs commands carry purpose...there is no purpose in spreading the news if you can not influence the decision of those who hear it....dont hide behind "well GOD knows best so I dont question" coz Truth can cope with being questioned...it wont falter because its interrogated.
3) Why would you even care? You cant change the outcome, they cant change the outcome, there is no hope...only a preordained plan. Thus you dont need to tell anyone anything, doing so will make no difference whatsoever.
It makes a mockery of the whole point of witness....which I recognise is always hush-hush on this forum.
The "vessels prepared for destruction" is Paul's hypothetical, not mine. You can take it up with him when we get to Heaven, if you disagree with it.
We're straying way off topic now, but I don't claim to understand everything about predestination. I simply accept is as reality because the Bible teaches it so clearly. Probably the biggest difference in my theology now as compared to when I first started posting on this forum, is that I'm more willing to admit to ignorance now than I was back then.
It's interesting that you bring up the "choose life" passage (Deuteronomy 30:19) because taken within context, that quote doesn't contradict the doctrine of election at all:
Who is speaking in that passage? Moses. Did Moses choose GOD or did GOD choose Moses? Obviously, GOD chose Moses, despite Moses' reluctance and attempts to convince GOD that he was not the right choice. Did GOD give Moses the option to refuse to lead Israel out of Egypt? Not really. Moses kept coming up with excuses for why he couldn't do it; but GOD refused to let him back out.
Who was Moses speaking to? The nation of Israel, the Chosen People, GOD's Elect. Of course, not everyone in the nation of Israel was loyal to GOD, which shows us that there is still an element of free will within those who are elect. GOD took Israel out of Egypt even though not all of them wanted to leave Egypt (which is why they kept trying to go back). So, in that sense, GOD's election had been superseding their free will for years by the time Moses made this speech.
Did Moses give this speech to the pagan nations that inhabited Israel at the time? No, because GOD had already commanded that those people be exterminated. If you read the accounts in the book of Joshua, none of them were given the option to repent. That doesn't mean that there weren't elect within those cities (Rahab from Jericho is the most obvious example); but as a whole, the cities were not given the opportunity to turn from their wickedness before their total destruction (contrast that with Jonah and the Ninevites). Thus, the purging of the Holy Land gives us a very graphic illustration of GOD's election at work.
Just because GOD doesn't want to send people to Hell doesn't mean that He won't send people to Hell. Also, there are plenty of commands that we are given that we are incapable of understanding completely. It's foolishness to think that we, with our limited, finite brains, could ever fully comprehend the actions of an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent being.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."
So the first step is to die to ourselves and give up this notion that we are smart enough to figure GOD out - which is really nothing more than sinful pride.
Overall, I have done my best to support my belief in predestination with Scriptural evidence. All you or anyone else has been able to offer in opposition is human logic, wisdom and the notion that, since you don't like it and it doesn't fit in with your personal image of GOD, then it can't be true. Nobody has yet to come up with any convincing Scriptural evidence against election.
Anyways, this is all I will say on the matter for now, because we've hijacked PTM's thread long enough. If you want to resurrect the Doctrine of Election thread in the Christianity section, then I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion with you.