Originally Posted by CAVEMAN1
1) Not sure they believe that anymore????????? I know a lot of Catholics that believe in purgatory!!!! So if the clergy does not believe in it anymore, what do they believe?
2) please feel free to show me in the Bible where sprinkling is biblical........also, confirmation does not equal salvation, although it is taught that way. And before you tell me it's not, I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church and lived like the devil for 10 years, so I know better. My wife who was also confirmed in the Catholic Church was told that she was a Saint and a child of God, but it was not until many years later that she heard the true gospel and came to the saving knowledge of Christ.
3)Then what do they have statues for? My in laws are still practicing Catholics and I can remember not to long ago they were having problems selling their house and were told by clergy to buy a statue of "Saint Something"(cannot remember the name now) and to bury it in their yard and it would help sell their house! Can you say mysticism?
4) Please show me where it is Biblical to pray or even talk to the DEAD? Including MARY!?!?!?!? Also, show me where Mary can even hear your requests???
5) Quotes from the Catechism: A)"Penance is also a sacrament instituted by Our Divine Savior in which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the Priest." B)The priest, as God's representative, can forgive sins because God has given him the power to do so." C) "Our Savior could indeed have decreed that men should receive the Pardon of their sins by going directly to God with contrition. BUT a sacrament, administered by men in the name of God, IS A MORE ASSURING AND A MORE EFFECTIVE MEANS." D) The power to forgive sins by pronouncing these words of absolution is given to the priest at his ordination. In order to exercise this power the priest must have jurisdiction, or be authorized to ACT AS A SPIRITUAL JUDGE OVER THE PERSONS HE ABSOLVES."
E) THE PRIEST FORGIVES SINS WITH THE WORDS: "I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the the Holy Ghost, Amen."
Judging from the above quotes, the priest is doing more than just telling people that God forgives them..............
1) No, well thats the Joke of Rome. Each Pontiff can re-write doctrine, its one of the main reasons I could never be Roman Catholic. If All Popes represent an unchanging Christ...how come each successive Pope changes what the last Pope said
To me, thats a logical proof that the Assumption of Apostolic Succession is untrue.
2) Please feel free to show me, where its forbidden
No Ceremonial can save, so what does it matter whether its oil or sprinkling, or full imersion? The Rite of Baptism doesnt save anyone...no Rite saves. The Rite is simply their as an outward declaration of faith, and the hope that it reflect an inward and completely invisible baptism. Afterall...The Holy Spirit Baptises with Fire...are you suggesting Imolation should be on the agenda
that really WOULD be something to behold...but about as mad as the snake handling churches.
3) Statues are Ikons, and Ikons a symbols that point to something. They have statues in the same way you might have stained glass, or bannars, or wear vestments, or dress your altars in coloured linens. I am sure SOME people DO worship statues. But not all. Just like paintings sometimes the Statues have nothing to do with who sees them, and alot to do with the reason why some person might have been moved to sculpt them.
But I dont mind Christian Mysticism. What was suggested to them sounds like an Invokation. They are asking for help, and doing something physical to show that. I tell you that when I move into a new house, I bring round a local Priest and I have him perform a house blessing. Its an Invokation...I ask GOD quite deliberately to enter the house, to clense anything untoward, and to bless the house, to have his host guard and watch over the house and protect it. It is my home, I need to feel safe...and I have been in situations, and shared them on this forum, where evil will come into my home and distress me. I know that there is power in the occult, and power in the spiritual realm, and I also know that GOD is the only method to stave off that sort of attack. You might want to say thats superstition, or mysticism...but if you ever encounter spiritual warfare yourself, believe me, you will never see coincidence again, you will know that the veil between temporal and spiritual is VERY thin...and you will pray for help, however absurd it may sound
Do I believe a Statue will help you sell your house? No. Do I believe that GOD might help you sell your house. Yes. Sometimes he DOES ask...remember what he said to those who were in Israel...he told them to put blood on their doorposts so that when the Host came to kill all the first born egyptions, the Host would know to avoid their dwellings...can you say Mysticism???!
4) The Basis of this is that All are Alive in Christ according to Saint Paul. That would logically include those Saints who have died. The Church is the Body of Christ and its not confined to Earth or the Temporal Realm. This is known as "the community of saints" and is basically reference to EVERY CHRISTIAN PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE...if all are alive in Christ, and one can have "communion" with Christ...then one can have "communion" with all the faithful dead.
There is no "proof" that Mary can hear anyone, and I dont really think she would be terribly concerned...because the one thing that the Romans dont think about is firstly the process of being outside time, and secondly, the concept that those in union with Christ, and already perfected really pay much attention to the living, except to welcome them home on arrival. I am not terribly Marian myself, because I simply dont care for her...I know that sounds really bad, and I have nothing against her, I just dont feel the need to ask anyone who has died for help...why bother?? I ask GOD myself...its quicker, its easier...and im lazy
But I understand the doctrine, the mysticism behind it...and it IS biblical that one can commune with dead Christians directly...as in...actually summon them in the way the soothsayers might...Poor Solomon was dragged from the heavens by King Saul I do believe...lets just say he would have much rather have been left alone. GOD forbids the practise...he doesnt say that you CANT do it...he says you SHOULDNT do it.
5) a) The prayer of Absolution doesnt Absolve Sin, it just says GOD absolves Sin...like I said...the Priest cant Absolve...but CAN tell you Absolution has been given by GOD...ANYONE CAN DO THAT.
b) Dont forget at one time they really thought that Priests COULD absolve sin, just like the Church could stop you going to Heaven...again...they dont really know if they believe that now or not...in one sence they have to say it, or they undermine the idea that the Roman Church is THE Church...but Vatican Two pretty much washed all of this sort of shyte away.
c) In the old days the Church used Latin as a Weapon against the illiterate society. These pagen converts made faults...and they wanted to know GOD had forgiven them. So the Priests would utter in latin that they could not understand and then say "yep...you're forgiven" infact for years they wouldnt let anyone receive communion. The whole service took place behind a gigantic curtain, just like in an old style Jewish Temple...the congregation couldnt see the priest, couldnt understand what they were saying, and only knew when the bread and wine were being blessed because the sanctuary bells would ring. That is NOT a Joke...the sanctuary bells still DO ring in Roman Catholic Churches and Anglo-catholic churches during the epiklesis to this day...infact around here, the Churches will even toll their central spire bells three times at the moment of Consecration to inform the outside world that it has occured. So you see how much power this gave to the Roman Church, the power over life and death, the power over eternal damnation or paradise...and the blackmailing of those whose family members died outside of communion with the Pope...and for about one thousand years between the dark and middle ages, they got away with it. Heck they even said if you didnt have a Roman Burrial you wouldnt go to Heaven...thats why the first thing Inocent did when Henry told him to shove it..was to suspend the Funierial rite. You have to ask yourself...did Rome EVER believe they had that power...or did they need to live a lie to hold onto power that they found themselves holding after the collapse of the Roman Empire...I'm betting on the latter...but then I'm a skeptic who doesnt even believe Constentine The Great truely had a conversion. Either way...only in the documents quoted are those beliefs...the Vatican never speaks about any of this stuff anymore publically...except for Allegience to the Pope, and the Urbi et Orbi blessings...outside of this they do not speak about indulgences, they do not speak about purgatory, they do not speak about power over life and death, and they do not speak about the Crusades
Incidently, Germany doesnt speak about Hitler much now either.
d) of course Priests have power to judge. They are called to ordination. Thats not to say they are infallable
e) In whose name
did you say...It wasnt their own now
, was it