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Old 08-26-2011, 08:12 PM
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Tyburn Tyburn is offline
Angry @ Injustice!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: England
Posts: 17,097

There is no such thing as Divine Election.

If there was, there would be no need for earth, and no need for evanglization, and of course, no need for GOD to bother creating half the Human race. It also means that we can not truely love GOD, which is what GOD desires...and always has desired, as he laments time and time again, that he wishes no person damned, but that all would turn to him (repeated over and over in the Levitical texts) this is a silly thing for GOD to say if we had no power at all, and no free will....and yes I can find the quotes in Scripture if people want to contend that point.

Later still GOD laments that He simply wants to be Israels GOD, and it is his wish that they are his people. He doesnt speak about Israel as if he has control over her longings...for if he did, then she would not sin...and he calls her a "Rebellious house" He actually gets very emotive through the prophets, particularly ezekiel and jeremiah. There is simply no need for that if he dictates outcomes.

I think what is beautiful about the whole narrative is that GOD desires true love. He desires someone to love him. He does not require Robots...he has those in the heavenly realm already to a large extent. History is a tale of how GOD goes in search of an unrequited Love. How, after making a choice to love Israel, she abandons him, and he is forced to save a remenant of her, not because he loves her, but because out of love for her he attached his name to her...and his name must always be held in high regard. It is a story about GOD so wanting our love, that he would self sacrifice so that we who are sinful can be in his presence long enough to be transformed, and yet not comprimise his own being. A cost which was extremely great to him...and of which there would be again, no need, if GOD simply selects who he wants.

Now IF I was going to argue a case for such a bizzare belief, then I would look at two Biblical Characters that appeared to be Cursed no matter what. From the Old Testament I would pick King Nebuchanezza of Babylon...and I would come when the King does according to GODs plans, does he inevitably get squished. For when GOD finally despaired of Israel, he brough Babylon down on Jerusalem, and the whole place was ruined. Ironically...the later fall of Babylon, according to Jeremiah is GODs retribution for the Exhile of Israel.

But hang on...whose idea for the Exhile was it in the first place??? If Nebuchanezza had decided not to attack Israel...the whole of Jewish History would have changed. GOD had a plan and made it known before the invasion...should the King of Babylon been free of sin if he had heard and thus avoided?? has to ask...what about Judas Escariot. It was imperative that Judas betrayed Jesus. Absolutely essential to the whole of Salvation History, not just the Jesus be Murdered...but that he also be Betrayed. Now one has to ask oneself...did Judas have free will...?? Or was he "destined" to betray Jesus??

If GOD can force people to do anything like that, then it is clear he can remove free will, and if there is no free will, then devine selection is the obvious answer.

My belief and it is a sure one, is that GOD grants free will, but its for his own benefit rather then ours...and that is to find real love. I think that in exceptional circumstances, where GOD is making a biblical statement in History, then he can remove free will. But its only everso fleeting.

I gave two examples where I thing GOD made someone do something for him, both of which involved them sinning, and both of which were then punished for it. I dont see GOD doing this sort of thing again until the Rise of the Anti Christ...where he MUST ensure certain things happen.
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