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Old 04-05-2011, 03:27 AM
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NateR NateR is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyburn View Post

Who does Jacob say that he wrestled with? He says that he saw GOD face to face. He didn't say that he saw an angel. The translator notes seem to confirm this idea. It's generally understood in Christianity that whenever GOD appears in the OT as a man then He is actually GOD the Son, since no one would be able to look upon GOD the Father.

The idea of the pre-incarnate Christ is simply a reference to GOD the Son prior to His conception inside the womb of Mary. We all know that the Son has existed for eternity as one with GOD; but we also know that He would eventually be incarnate in the physical body of Jesus Christ. The actually physical body of Jesus didn't exist prior to his conception in 4 BC, but GOD the Son did.

Originally Posted by Play The Man View Post
NateR, how does that particular translation comment on Hosea 12?
12:3 In the womb he attacked his brother;
in his manly vigor he struggled 4 with God.
12:4 He struggled 5 with an angel and prevailed;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found God 6 at Bethel, 7
and there he spoke with him! 8
12:5 As for the LORD God Almighty,
the LORD is the name by which he is remembered! 9
The translator notes:
4 tn The verb שָׂרָה (sarah) means “to strive, contend” (HALOT 1354 s.v. שׂרה) or “persevere, persist” (BDB 975 s.v. שָׂרָה; see Gen 32:29). Almost all English versions render the verb here in terms of the former: NAB, NASB “contended”; NRSV “strove”; TEV, CEV “fought against.”

5 tc The MT vocalizes the consonantal text וָיָּשַׂר (vayyasar, vav consecutive + Qal preterite 3rd person masculine singular from שׂוּר, sur, “to see”); however, parallelism with שָׂרַה (sarah, “he contended”) in 12:3 suggested that it be vocalized as ויּשׂר (vav consecutive + Qal preterite 3rd person masculine singular from שׂרה [“to strive, contend”]). The latter is followed by almost all English versions here.

6 tn Heb “him”; the referent (God) has been specified in the translation for clarity.

7 map For location see Map4-G4; Map5-C1; Map6-E3; Map7-D1; Map8-G3.

8 tc The Leningrad Codex and the Allepo Codex both read 1st person common plural עִמָּנוּ (’immanu, “with us”). The LXX and Pe••••ta both reflect an alternate Hebrew Vorlage of 3rd person masculine singular עִמוֹ (’imo, “with him”). The BHS editors suggest emending the MT in favor of the Greek and Syriac. The internal evidence of 12:4-5 favors the 3rd person masculine singular reading. It is likely that the 1st person common plural ־נוּ reading on עִמָּנוּ arose due to a misunderstanding of the 3rd person masculine singular ־נוּ suffix on יִמְצָאֶנּוּ (yimtsa’ennu, “he found him”; Qal imperfect 3rd person masculine singular + 3rd person masculine singular suffix) which was probably misunderstood as the 1st person common plural suffix: “he found us.” Several English versions follow the LXX and Syriac: “there he spoke with him” (RSV, NAB, NEB, NIV, NJPS, TEV). Others follow the MT: “there he spoke with us” (KJV, NASB, CEV). The Hebrew University Old Testament Project, which tends to preserve the MT whenever possible, adopts the MT reading but gives it only a “C” rating. See D. Barthélemy, ed., Preliminary and Interim Report on the Hebrew Old Testament Text Project, 5:262-63.

9 tn Heb “[is] his memorial name” (so ASV); TEV “the name by which he is to be worshipped.”
The thing about the NetBible is that each book is translated by different translators. So Hosea would be translated by a different person, or group of people, than those who translated Genesis.

What we see are two references of Jacob wrestling GOD sandwiching one reference of him wrestling an angel. However the word translated into English as "angel" is the Hebrew term mal'ak. According to the Strong's Concordance, mal'ak can have the following meanings:
messenger, a human representative: angel, a supernatural representative of God, sometimes delivering messages, sometimes protecting God's people; the "angel of the LORD" sometimes shares divine characteristics and is sometimes thought to be a manifestation of God himself, or of the preincarnate Christ (page 1901, The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, published in 2001).
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