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-   -   Do you have a Patron Saint (http://www.matt-hughes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10547)

Tyburn 10-06-2013 08:17 PM

Do you have a Patron Saint
 
I know that when you go through the confirmation procedures in the Roman or Anglican rite, you can get to choose.

The idea is that it provides a purely human inspiration, which is not engineered for salvation, but actually about the Christian, earthly life and walk.

Of course its flawed in one major way :ninja:

:laugh:

NateR 10-06-2013 08:26 PM

No, I believe patron saints are actually a form of idolatry.

There's nothing wrong with learning about the real world struggles that other Christians from the past have had to endure; but when that person replaces Christ in your life and you actually start praying to the saint, then you've stepped outside the boundaries of Christianity and are guilty of worshipping a false god.

Tyburn 10-07-2013 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateR (Post 202150)
No, I believe patron saints are actually a form of idolatry.

There's nothing wrong with learning about the real world struggles that other Christians from the past have had to endure; 1) but when that person replaces Christ in your life and you actually start 2) praying to the saint, then you've stepped outside the boundaries of Christianity and are guilty of worshipping a false god.

1) thats not the point. The idea is more that, quite frankly, when you are going through a hard time, sometimes looking to perfection as your inspiration makes it worse because you know its unachievable. The idea, therefore is that you basically have a good totally fallable, and totally human, but christian person that you can relate to aswell.

2) What do you believe the church is?
Are dead Christians part of the Church aswell?
Are dead Christians in Communion with Christ aswell?
Do you dissaprove of getting other living Christians to pray for you?
Is your asking them to do that, praying to them?

I dont do it personally, because I dont see the need...but I know people who ask the faithful departed to pray for them, just like they ask other mortal christians to pray for them. Being that I know, from personal experience that the veil between the temporal realm, and the spiritual realm is so very thin, its not beyond my belief to admit that the Body of Christ, extends, not just to living Christians in body, BUT ALSO living Christians in Spirit.

If God is free of time, then His Church is the entire lot...every Christian who is, was, and will be.

or do you deny that :huh:

As I said before, there are other major flaws with adopting a saint, not covered by you above...but I just wondered if it was a practise of other churches across the world also:)

NateR 10-07-2013 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyburn (Post 202151)
but I know people who ask the faithful departed to pray for them, just like they ask other mortal christians to pray for them. Being that I know, from personal experience that the veil between the temporal realm, and the spiritual realm is so very thin, its not beyond my belief to admit that the Body of Christ, extends, not just to living Christians in body, BUT ALSO living Christians in Spirit.

Your "personal experience" is irrelevant. If you can't support your opinion here with Scripture, then I don't accept any of it. Show me one verse that supports the idea of petitioning dead saints to pray for us.

You could maybe bring up the example of King Saul consulting a medium to contact Samuel from beyond the grave, but that was not portrayed in Scripture as a positive thing at all. It was actually seen as a very grave sin on Saul's part.

In fact, attempting to communicate with the dead is directly prohibited by Scripture. When you pray, you should ONLY be communicating with GOD, there are no other options given in the Bible.

NateR 10-08-2013 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyburn (Post 202151)
1) thats not the point. The idea is more that, quite frankly, when you are going through a hard time, sometimes looking to perfection as your inspiration makes it worse because you know its unachievable. The idea, therefore is that you basically have a good totally fallable, and totally human, but christian person that you can relate to aswell.

When you are going through a hard time then that's when you need to look to GOD most of all.

You seem to be missing the entire point of our relationship with GOD. We can never achieve perfection through our own works, that's one of the basic teachings of the Christian faith. It's not about making ourselves good enough for GOD, because that's impossible. It's about understanding that we can't accomplish anything on our own and we need GOD's help every minute of every day.

If anyone other than GOD takes on that role in our lives, then that person has become a false god to us, even if that person is a Christian.

CAVEMAN1 10-09-2013 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateR (Post 202152)
Your "personal experience" is irrelevant. If you can't support your opinion here with Scripture, then I don't accept any of it. Show me one verse that supports the idea of petitioning dead saints to pray for us.

You could maybe bring up the example of King Saul consulting a medium to contact Samuel from beyond the grave, but that was not portrayed in Scripture as a positive thing at all. It was actually seen as a very grave sin on Saul's part.

In fact, attempting to communicate with the dead is directly prohibited by Scripture. When you pray, you should ONLY be communicating with GOD, there are no other options given in the Bible.



Well said!

CAVEMAN1 10-09-2013 01:53 PM

I agree with Nate that looking for a need in any other than Jesus is idolatry.

Tyburn 10-09-2013 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateR (Post 202173)
1) When you are going through a hard time then that's when you need to look to GOD most of all.

2) You seem to be missing the entire point of our relationship with GOD.

3) We can never achieve perfection through our own works, that's one of the basic teachings of the Christian faith. It's not about making ourselves good enough for GOD, because that's impossible. It's about understanding that we can't accomplish anything on our own and we need GOD's help every minute of every day.

4) If anyone other than GOD takes on that role in our lives, then that person has become a false god to us, even if that person is a Christian.

1) Nathan...everyone needs human role models too...that is my only point. I am not talking about excluding GOD...nor am I talking about the sort of hard time where you just feel a little bit sad. Now...at least with a Saint as a Role model, the Established Church aggrees that the life that person had is good and proper.

2) The time is well past on this forum, for you to lecture me on my relationship with GOD...since, of those threads that I have put succinctly on such an issue, you either fail to notice, or actively ignore. You pretty much only respond if you dissagree and think that by that dissagreement you will cause a division, where you are bolstered by those who will aggree with you and afirm you in that way, and where you can enjoy self righteous pomposity against those who dissagree with you...So dont lets be talking about my relationship with the Almighty and how I might be missing any points....so lets not pretend you give a hoot about my actual relationship with Christ...and only really with trying to put me down on a theo-philosophical level.

3) Sorry...did I ever say anything opposite to that :huh:

4) IMHO...because of GODs power, its unlikley that a True Christian, even a weak Christian, who KNOWS GOD will be able to do that easily. Role Models, and the Divine are two different things...if you cant tell the difference between someone you admire, aspire to be like...and a personal relationship with Christ...

The most ironic thing is...that as far as a PERSONAL relationship goes. The moment of revelation happened for me in America, in 2009, in Chicago of all places :laugh: I was not planning or searching for a spiritual event when it happened :wink: Before that point, I think what your saying was easy to happen...that is to say that there are superficial importants which could be the biggest thing in ones life. But deep importants only ever come at moments of spiritual revelation for me, and they change my whole way of being every time.

Tyburn 10-09-2013 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateR (Post 202152)
Your "personal experience" is irrelevant. If you can't support your opinion here with Scripture, then I don't accept any of it. Show me one verse that supports the idea of petitioning dead saints to pray for us.

You could maybe bring up the example of King Saul consulting a medium to contact Samuel from beyond the grave, but that was not portrayed in Scripture as a positive thing at all. It was actually seen as a very grave sin on Saul's part.

In fact, attempting to communicate with the dead is directly prohibited by Scripture. When you pray, you should ONLY be communicating with GOD, there are no other options given in the Bible.

Personally, I dont pray, or petition anyone but GOD.

But there are things that can not be so easily supported by scripture. You know, there is nothing in Scripture that specifically tells you what to do when faced, directly, with certain evils, that are more then cryptic analogies.

Never the less, there maybe times when you are faced, directly, with an evil entity. I dont really understand what Saint Paul actually meant in his letter to the Ephesians...metaphorical dressing in armour is highly unhelpful...it is perhaps because I didnt know what to do...that I did the only thing I could, and called for help.

Nevermind saving ourselves from eternal damnation...there are things in THIS realm that we cant even save ourselves from. From personal experience, I know that to be true...and it is because of such experiences, that I also know how the spiritual realm can just barge into you.

The dead are not Dead...they are VERY MUCH alive in Christ...this is proven by Visitations... In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and run like sparks through the stubble... It often happens that between death and burrial that "contact" is initiated from the otherside.

A few nights after my Grandfather passed away, my Nan was awoken in the middle of the night to find her room filled with light, and she described being able to see her deceased husband...and he said the following to her

"Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.
Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
but those who hope in the Lord
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint

He was using a passage from Scripture, from Isaiah...but he wasnt referencing it applied to the mortal living... "those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength"

Wasnt, "If you feel bad, God will confort you" but more like "Those who die in The Lord, are ressurected with the Lord" Those who have died in Christ, the faithful departed, the communion of saints...whatever you want to call them, are as much a part of the church, as those who live on earth. Like a Great Cloud of witnesses, you might say :)

Neezar 10-10-2013 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyburn (Post 202199)
1) Nathan...everyone needs human role models too...that is my only point. I am not talking about excluding GOD...nor am I talking about the sort of hard time where you just feel a little bit sad. Now...at least with a Saint as a Role model, the Established Church aggrees that the life that person had is good and proper.

Can't you pick a live role model? :unsure-1:

2) The time is well past on this forum, for you to lecture me on my relationship with GOD...since, of those threads that I have put succinctly on such an issue, you either fail to notice, or actively ignore. You pretty much only respond if you dissagree and think that by that dissagreement you will cause a division, where you are bolstered by those who will aggree with you and afirm you in that way, and where you can enjoy self righteous pomposity against those who dissagree with you...So dont lets be talking about my relationship with the Almighty and how I might be missing any points....so lets not pretend you give a hoot about my actual relationship with Christ...and only really with trying to put me down on a theo-philosophical level.

I only respond if I disagree, also. Although I don't feel any self righteous pomposity. (whatever that is, lol) So do you feel that anyone who disagrees with you just trying to put you down? Or just Nate?




3) Sorry...did I ever say anything opposite to that :huh:


4) IMHO...because of GODs power, its unlikley that a True Christian, even a weak Christian, who KNOWS GOD will be able to do that easily. Role Models, and the Divine are two different things...if you cant tell the difference between someone you admire, aspire to be like...and a personal relationship with Christ...

I think that is the point. There is a difference. And God tells you to turn to Him in your time of need. Not your role models.

I believe that everyone's walk with God is/should be personal/private and I don't pretend to be any authority on that. And I don't like to question anyone else's relationship with God. However, if I understood you correctly in an earlier post- you said that sometimes turning to God makes you feel worse, and that is very disheartening to me. :sad: I hope you aren't praying to anyone looking for something to make yourself feel better.


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