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matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 03:41 AM
Holy cow, Carwin is a beast...Dominated Mir...Lesnar better watch out because Carwin possesses that strength and athleticism as well

Pellegrino looked amazing as well

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 03:44 AM
Mir was DESTROYED!!!! That was better than the beating Brock put on him.

Now it's time for HARDY/GSP:punch:

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 03:54 AM
Lets go GSP...Not a fan of his, but I don't like Hardy, I get a very douchebag vibe from him

haha, GSP coming out to Notorious B.I.G....When you think of GSP, you don't really think gangster music lol

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:04 AM
Round 1 definately goes to GSP. Takedowns, and he had total control of Hardy. Great job by Hardy getting out of that arm bar!

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 04:05 AM
Round 1 definately goes to GSP. Takedowns, and he had total control of Hardy. Great job by Hardy getting out of that arm bar!took the words right out of my mouth

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:10 AM
Round 2 goes to GSP again, same as round 1.

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:16 AM
Between rounds GSP was told NOT to pass Hardy's guard.
Round 3 GSP. Starts off with another takedown working from the guard of Hardy. GSP posturing up throwing hard punches, elbows. Hardy attempted a triangle, GSP passes guard to side control. GSP attemped armbar kimoura/ Hardy escapes again. Hardy bounces up GSP takes him back down, side control. Hardy gives up his back, shakes off GSP, GSP sweeps.

Roun3 : GSP

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 04:18 AM
gsp is just completely dominating on the ground, but it just seems like he is letting this drag out, i just get the feeling that he's not really trying to finish this fight since that armbar...It just looks like he can do whatever he wants with hardy

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:22 AM
Between rounds Greg Jackson telling GSP NOT to pass guard until there are 30seconds left.

Round 4 takedown GSP in Hardy's half guard. GSP mounts, Hardy gives up his back. Hardy stands up gets taken back down. GSP in hardy's guard, posturing up throwing hard punches. Hardy rolls out GSP to side control. Hardy attempt hip escape, GSP gets Hardy's left arm hardy gets it free AGAIN!!!! GSP to side control.
Round 4 : GSP


Hardy has a ton of heart, his arm way bent behind his back nearly touching his head and he did not tap.

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 04:23 AM
hardy is tough as nails...he should have been submitted twice and refused to tap, that armbar and that kimura looked brutal and you could see him grimace...Gsp is still dominating, hardy is being completely outclassed

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:29 AM
Final round : Round 5 brief stand up exchange, takedown GSP, into Hardy's guard. Hardy attempted triangle, GSP escapes to north south position. Hardy gives up his back (GSP hugging him). Hardy on his back GSP laying on him holding Hardy's leg. GSP working left arm AGAIN Hardy gets his arm free AGAIN. GSP to side control laying on Hardy, now throwing elbows. GSP working Hardy's left arm again, Hardy gets his arm free. GSP side control kneeing the body. Hardy gives up his back, GSP slams him, working from his guard.

Round 5 GSP
GSP by UD

Hardy has a lot of hart and no quit in him. Anyone else would have quit after the first armbar.

GSP dominated him on the ground the entire fight. GSP can't finish a fight.

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 04:31 AM
GSP can't finish a fight.it kind of seems that way, like he just doesn't want to open up with punches...with that armbar and kimura alot of other people would have tapped, those were moves that should have been finishers but hardy just refused to tap

timmyja
03-28-2010, 04:33 AM
LOL @ GSP vs Anderson Silva.

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 04:33 AM
GSP disappointed in his performinz and mentioned that he made a lot of stupid technical mistakes...Haha if that was a poor technical performance thats amazing(besides going high on the back several times, i didn't really see any mistakes)

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:34 AM
GSP is an AWESOME fighter and probably above all in the division and up there with P4P fighters BUT he needs to finish these fights. Seems like he goes out and plays it safe. Ever since the SARAH fight he seems a little scared of the stand up.

Liddellfan
03-28-2010, 04:37 AM
LOL @ GSP vs Anderson Silva.

That may end up being an interesting fight. there is no doubt Silva would KILL GSP in the stand up game but IF GSP could take him down it may get interesting.

Earlier in the night Rogan asked GSP why he was putting on weight/muscle and if he was thinking about going up to 185, GSP just smiled and said he wasn't looking past Dan hardy. He said the reason for the weight gain is because he felt small and out muscled by Thiago Alvez......Would really like to see GSP A.Silva.
All fights start on the feet. Is GSP quick enough to take Silva down? If Silva gets taken down can he get back up?

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 04:40 AM
man, carwin is a beast .. can't wait for him to fight brock .... gsp is looking like he doesn't want to finish ... i mean, he seemed like he let up on the armbar and he let up on the kimura too .... his corner was telling him to stay in full guard which was weird to me ... gsp dominated, but should have stopped that fight

bj44
03-28-2010, 04:41 AM
For some reason GSP didn't want to break Hardy's arm... He needs to get some killer instinct... I don't even know who he fights next

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 04:42 AM
GSP disappointed in his performinz and mentioned that he made a lot of stupid technical mistakes...Haha if that was a poor technical performance thats amazing(besides going high on the back several times, i didn't really see any mistakes)

i was thinking the same thing!


:laugh:performinz! lol

flo
03-28-2010, 04:43 AM
Guess the red contacts didn't scare GSP enough...

:Whistle:

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 04:44 AM
man, carwin is a beast .. can't wait for him to fight brock .... gsp is looking like he doesn't want to finish ... i mean, he seemed like he let up on the armbar and he let up on the kimura too .... his corner was telling him to stay in full guard which was weird to me ... gsp dominated, but should have stopped that fight

yeah that should be a really good fight. brock is massive but carwin is crazy brutal.........

timmyja
03-28-2010, 04:45 AM
Georges definitely dominates his class, but I can't get behind the GSP @ 185 train when he doesn't finish the competition @ 170. I can see him eating a knee going in for a shot on AS. I would be a huge fan of Georges if he went back to the "pre-Serra" Georges.

On another note, Carwin is an animal. His power and strength definitely make the Lesnar fight very, very interesting. For as much as Dana burns on mazzagatti, mirogliotta isn't too impressive either. Dan M. has got to go before somebody ends up getting killed. Frank took a lot of unnessecary punches, and for a minute I was honestlly concerned for his safety.

flo
03-28-2010, 04:48 AM
yeah that should be a really good fight. brock is massive but carwin is crazy brutal.........

He sure mauled Frank, I was surprised how quick it was all over!

I hope that match-up with Lesnar happens too, DonnaMaria (with the same results, heh heh). :happydancing:

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 04:49 AM
Georges definitely dominates his class, but I can't get behind the GSP @ 185 train when he doesn't finish the competition @ 170. I can see him eating a knee going in for a shot on AS. I would be a huge fan of Georges if he went back to the "pre-Serra" Georges.

On another note, Carwin is an animal. His power and strength definitely make the Lesnar fight very, very interesting. For as much as Dana burns on mazzagatti, mirogliotta isn't too impressive either. Dan M. has got to go before somebody ends up getting killed. Frank took a lot of unnessecary punches, and for a minute I was honestlly concerned for his safety.

it was scary when he didn't get up right away..........

it definately should have been stopped earlier

bj44
03-28-2010, 04:49 AM
One thing i noticed about Carwin though is he wasn't able to take Mir down and Mirs wrestling is average!!! Carwin isn't as good of a wrestler as people make him out to be.

flo
03-28-2010, 04:50 AM
On another note, Carwin is an animal. His power and strength definitely make the Lesnar fight very, very interesting. For as much as Dana burns on mazzagatti, mirogliotta isn't too impressive either. Dan M. has got to go before somebody ends up getting killed. Frank took a lot of unnessecary punches, and for a minute I was honestlly concerned for his safety.

Yes, absolutely.

Time to bring in Big John, Dana!

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 04:50 AM
yeah that should be a really good fight. brock is massive but carwin is crazy brutal.........

yeah, brock is huge, but he is probably well over 300 tonite ... he won't be that big come fight nite ...

i liked carwins plan ... clinch before he gets taken down .. i think he does the same with lesnar

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 04:56 AM
I think Hardy deserves credit for staying in there the whole 5 rounds with GSP. Even though Georges controlled throughout, I think Hardy did a good job of not letting Georges do too much damage to him and he did make it thru both the arm bar and kimura attempts which might easily have caved a less mentally tough fighter. I haven't seen a lot of Hardy's fights, but it looks like he needs to work on stuffing takedowns.

I'm looking forward to the Carwin/Lesnar fight now. Those fast, short hard punches of Carwin are wicked. :punch:

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 04:58 AM
I think Hardy deserves credit for staying in there the whole 5 rounds with GSP. Even though Georges controlled throughout, I think Hardy did a good job of not letting Georges do too much damage to him and he did make it thru both the arm bar and kimora attempts which might easily have caved a less mentally tough fighter.
I'm looking forward to the Carwin/Lesnar fight now. Those fast, short hard punches of Carwin are wicked. :punch:

or definately a less rubber one!:laugh:

logrus
03-28-2010, 05:00 AM
Gsp has become such a boring fighter to watch. His ground game is solid, but you come to expect a Gsp fight to go to the ground and accomplish little else there after.

Mad props to Dan for not tapping.

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:02 AM
Gsp has become such a boring fighter to watch. His ground game is solid, but you come to expect a Gsp fight to go to the ground and accomplish little else there after.

Mad props to Dan for not tapping.

:laugh: Dan Hardy survived...nothing more.
he should never have been in there with GSP in the first place.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:04 AM
For some reason GSP didn't want to break Hardy's arm... He needs to get some killer instinct... I don't even know who he fights next

i have to agree with this .. guys go in there looking to hurt the other guy, gsp needs that ... he let up on both the armbar and kimura ...

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 05:04 AM
Gsp has become such a boring fighter to watch. His ground game is solid, but you come to expect a Gsp fight to go to the ground and accomplish little else there after.

Mad props to Dan for not tapping.

really? i thought he was great........

i thought he tried to accomplish a lot..........but it just didn't work out......

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 05:05 AM
Yes, absolutely.

Time to bring in Big John, Dana!

I think Big John was the best and they definitely should bring him back. I don't think Miragliotta realized Mir was out.

I would like to see someone crank on Palhares' knee 'til he's screaming in agony! Maybe that would be a good fight for Miragliotta to ref. :ninja:

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:06 AM
Gsp has become such a boring fighter to watch. His ground game is solid, but you come to expect a Gsp fight to go to the ground and accomplish little else there after.

Mad props to Dan for not tapping.

i don't know if i'd call it boring ... i still can't remember the last time a gsp fight was stood up due to inactivity ... i mean, i love watching my fav sports teams winning a blow out, so i am happy with gsp owning these guys for 5 rounds ....

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 05:11 AM
i have to agree with this .. guys go in there looking to hurt the other guy, gsp needs that ... he let up on both the armbar and kimura ...

We must not have been watching the same fight. Georges was cranking Hardy's arm in both attempts full out. I think he just got tired. :laugh:

Mac
03-28-2010, 05:13 AM
Gsp has become such a boring fighter to watch. His ground game is solid, but you come to expect a Gsp fight to go to the ground and accomplish little else there after.

Mad props to Dan for not tapping.

I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:13 AM
We must not have been watching the same fight. Georges was cranking Hardy's arm in both attempts full out. I think he just got tired. :laugh:

maybe ... but with that kimura he seemed like he had the arm near the end and just stopped cranking .. maybe it was postition ... i don't think he was tired, but he could have not been in the right spot ...

Mac
03-28-2010, 05:15 AM
:
he should never have been in there with GSP in the first place.

Thats just dumb. He proved he deserved to be there tonight . I think gsp looked more gassed that Hardy did , george played it safe. as he has been doing latley.

DonnaMaria
03-28-2010, 05:15 AM
We must not have been watching the same fight. Georges was cranking Hardy's arm in both attempts full out. I think he just got tired. :laugh:

:laugh:

GSPs look was priceless!

it was like......... "This crazy ***** isn't going to tap......is someone going to call it?"

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:15 AM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

so your saying Hardy won that fight then.

Mac
03-28-2010, 05:17 AM
so your saying Hardy won that fight then.

What fight ? Theres a difference in winning and beating , He didnt beat hardy , he won the match .

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:18 AM
Thats just dumb. He proved he deserved to be there tonight . I think gsp looked more gassed that Hardy did , george played it safe. as he has been doing latley.

thats just dumb ?...really ?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

tell me then....what did Hardy do to try and win the fight ?

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:19 AM
at least mur isn't gonna be dreaming about lesnar anymore .. now he is gonna have a carwin nightmare

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 05:22 AM
Between rounds Greg Jackson telling GSP NOT to pass guard until there are 30seconds left.


yeah wtf. as much as gsp didnt seem to want to finish his cornermen seem to want to finish even less. i think they (especially Jackson) play a crucial role in him not finishing fights. this fight was bittersweet I mean GSP did dominate the fight as usual and I know he went for those submissions but he had many other opportunities to finish this fight. there were so many perfect positions to finish that were given to him. it seems like he has forgotten how to ground n pound. he wasnt hesistant to grapple after losing to matt youz and it seems like the matt seRRA loss has affected his striking and GNP. i dont think he has the frame for middleweight i mean i dont think he can get much bigger and he already has height disadvantages at 170. Also I have so much respect for dan hardy its ridiculous. even though he got dominated he still showed more against gsp than fitch and alves. also why did gsp keep waiting till the very end of the rounds to go for kneebars? GSP > BJ still (thats right)

bj44
03-28-2010, 05:23 AM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

so i guess matt hughes didnt beat chris lytle or verissimo then??? Cant have it both ways

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 05:23 AM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

Well said, Mac!

I really think if this fight was based solely on mental toughness, Hardy would have won. I thought it kind of strange that Georges was apologizing to everybody. I think it might be getting to him that he's not able to finish a fight.

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 05:24 AM
thats just dumb ?...really ?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

tell me then....what did Hardy do to try and win the fight ?

hardy did exactly what he accused gsp's previous opponents of doing and that is being hesistant to throw hands because of the takedown.

Mac
03-28-2010, 05:24 AM
thats just dumb ?...really ?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

tell me then....what did Hardy do to try and win the fight ?



Yeah its dumb . A kid that didnt deserve to be there took everything that some refer to as the best p4p , could throw at him and went all 5 rounds without even a scratch , So to say he didnt deserve to be there is just a dumb statement.

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 05:25 AM
Well said, Mac!

I really think if this fight was based solely on mental toughness, Hardy would have won. I thought it kind of strange that Georges was apologizing to everybody. I think it might be getting to him that he's not able to finish a fight.

It definitely is and he said before this fight that he was disappointed about not finishing alves so yeah he is probably happy but not ecstatic

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:26 AM
GSP was not impressed with is performinz ..

timmyja
03-28-2010, 05:27 AM
MMA fans are a funny breed. Fitch, Sherk, Gray Maynard and even Randy Couture get so much crap for stalling to a decision, but when Georges does it, it's art.

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 05:27 AM
so i guess matt hughes didnt beat chris lytle or verissimo then??? Cant have it both ways

indeed and i was gonna make that point that people cant act like wrestling is illegal especially here. lets not turn this into a debate about that though because it will never end and it will ruin this thread.

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 05:28 AM
GSP was not impressed with is performinz ..

dan ardy learn a lot from da loss is gonna make him stronger like gsp's loss to matt youz and matt seRRA

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:30 AM
Yeah its dumb . A kid that didnt deserve to be there took everything that some refer to as the best p4p , could throw at him and went all 5 rounds without even a scratch , So to say he didnt deserve to be there is just a dumb statement.


no scratches you say ?...his nose was bleeding...tell me what did Hardy do ?

i'll tell you seeing as how you didn't get to see the fight.


HE DID ABSOLUTLY NOTHING ! ! !

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:30 AM
this all leads to the next fight ... gsp /bjiii

Mac
03-28-2010, 05:30 AM
GSP was not impressed with is performinz ..

LOL

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:33 AM
really though, as a gsp fan, he should have stood with hardy in the 3rd, 4th and 5th ... but if he got ko'd, he would have been given hell for not sticking to game plan ... i don't think hardy would have ko'd him, the longer he stands, the greater chance for getting ko'd .... greg jackson is there to tell gsp what to do to win and gsp pays him for that ...

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 05:45 AM
no scratches you say ?...his nose was bleeding...tell me what did Hardy do ?

i'll tell you seeing as how you didn't get to see the fight.


HE DID ABSOLUTLY NOTHING ! ! !

GSP even gave Hardy props saying Hardy did better in his first title fight than he (GSP) did in his first title fight against Matt Hughes.

Hardy wasn't just lying there picking his nose. :rolleyes: I think both of them deserve their props: GSP for controlling the fight for the win and Hardy for doing what he could from the bottom to limit that control and those submission attempts to last all 5 rounds.

logrus
03-28-2010, 05:49 AM
really though, as a gsp fan, he should have stood with hardy in the 3rd, 4th and 5th ... but if he got ko'd, he would have been given hell for not sticking to game plan ... i don't think hardy would have ko'd him, the longer he stands, the greater chance for getting ko'd .... greg jackson is there to tell gsp what to do to win and gsp pays him for that ...

Its not really a game plan if you ask me. Gsp has been gun shy ever since Serra tagged him. Since then Gsp has really wanted nothing to do with anyone standing up. Sure he strikes here and there. But once he gets his chance hes laying and praying.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:49 AM
GSP even gave Hardy props saying Hardy did better in his first title fight than he (GSP) did in his first title fight against Matt Hughes.

Hardy wasn't just lying there picking his nose. :rolleyes: I think both of them deserve their props: GSP for controlling the fight for the win and Hardy for doing what he could from the bottom to limit that control and those submission attempts to last all 5 rounds.

yeah, gsp was like 22 or so with under 10 fights ... hardy is 27 with almost 30 fights ...

gsp has a lot of work to do on his control ... he went too high on the back a bunch of times and others will make him pay ...

matthughesfan21
03-28-2010, 05:50 AM
GSP even gave Hardy props saying Hardy did better in his first title fight than he (GSP) did in his first title fight against Matt Hughes.

Hardy wasn't just lying there picking his nose. :rolleyes: I think both of them deserve their props: GSP for controlling the fight for the win and Hardy for doing what he could from the bottom to limit that control and those submission attempts to last all 5 rounds.hardy defended well, but he did absolutely nothing offensively...it was a training session for gsp, he was never even remotely in any danger

J.B.
03-28-2010, 05:54 AM
MMA fans are a funny breed. Fitch, Sherk, Gray Maynard and even Randy Couture get so much crap for stalling to a decision, but when Georges does it, it's art.

Actually, looks to me like it's the same thing. Even in this thread, plenty of people are calling GSP out on not finishing fights.

Fight fans in general are pretty ridiculous. I can't think of any other sport where the fans are so hard on the competitors, even in dominating victories. It's also funny how many people's opinions drastically change if the fighter in question is one of their favorite fighters. It's all a part of it as much as the actual fights themselves. The constant debate and cynicism is part of what drives the hype and sells the fights.

Often it seems that fight fans focus more on the "what-if" rather than what happened. In other sports, legacies are built on the numbers. Win/loss record, number of championships, and other statistics. In MMA, and Boxing, fighters legacies are constantly riddled with debate over one thing or another, and they are constantly being compared with past and future generations. No matter how much a fighter accomplishes, there is always something that somebody finds to nitpick about, it's a living discussion that never ends.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:55 AM
Its not really a game plan if you ask me. Gsp has been gun shy ever since Serra tagged him. Since then Gsp has really wanted nothing to do with anyone standing up. Sure he strikes here and there. But once he gets his chance hes laying and praying.

i agree .. but his camp is telling him what to do .... if he gets ko'd .. well then people will say his game plan was there, but he couldn't stick to it, or that hardy took him out of his gp ...

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 06:05 AM
hardy defended well, but he did absolutely nothing offensively...it was a training session for gsp, he was never even remotely in any danger

I did think Hardy would be a little more aggressive with his striking especially after the first two rounds where Georges came in fast for the takedown. He should have just gone for it 'cause Georges was going to keep coming in for the takedown no matter what. I wish he would have tried to get GSP with a knee as he was coming in for the takedown or at the very least.....sprawl, sprawl, sprawl. :laugh:

logrus
03-28-2010, 06:06 AM
Actually, looks to me like it's the same thing. Even in this thread, plenty of people are calling GSP out on not finishing fights.

Fight fans in general are pretty ridiculous. I can't think of any other sport where the fans are so hard on the competitors, even in dominating victories. It's also funny how many people's opinions drastically change if the fighter in question is one of their favorite fighters. It's all a part of it as much as the actual fights themselves. The constant debate and cynicism is part of what drives the hype and sells the fights.

Often it seems that fight fans focus more on the "what-if" rather than what happened. In other sports, legacies are built on the numbers. Win/loss record, number of championships, and other statistics. In MMA, and Boxing, fighters legacies are constantly riddled with debate over one thing or another, and they are constantly being compared with past and future generations. No matter how much a fighter accomplishes, there is always something that somebody finds to nitpick about, it's a living discussion that never ends.

True, but you know me I call it like I see it no matter if hes my favorite fighter or not. Its pretty sad when you can sit there and watch a fight and pretty much know whats expected. Its like watching a WWE wrestling match or show. I havewnt watched a show in years and when I turned it on the other nite for Monday Night Raw. I pretty much could still call everything out.

i agree .. but his camp is telling him what to do .... if he gets ko'd .. well then people will say his game plan was there, but he couldn't stick to it, or that hardy took him out of his gp ...

Dan could have caught him on the ground and then what. Doesn't really matter, you dont need to have a game plan for Gsp anymore, the dude is gun shy lol.

timmyja
03-28-2010, 06:20 AM
Often it seems that fight fans focus more on the "what-if" rather than what happened. In other sports, legacies are built on the numbers. Win/loss record, number of championships, and other statistics. In MMA, and Boxing, fighters legacies are constantly riddled with debate over one thing or another, and they are constantly being compared with past and future generations. No matter how much a fighter accomplishes, there is always something that somebody finds to nitpick about, it's a living discussion that never ends.

Absolutely right. Good way of wording it, too. The first comparison that comes to my mind is comparing Georges to Matt. IMO Georges has a LONG way to go to fill those shoes and be known as the greatest WW of all times. He is very dominant, yes, but he doesn't possess the killer instinct that Matt Hughes had during his title reign. Out of 14 title fights, only ONE of Matt's went to a decision, including his losses. Another similarity between GSP and Matt, is that they are both excellent role models for the sport.

I don't mean to always sound like I'm bashing Georges, but the Georges I remember on the ground is the Georges that beatdown Jason Miller, Karo and Frank Trigg. Karo and Miller went to a decision, but neither of those two fights were boring. Since the first Serra fight, Georges seems to have forgotten his RUTHLESS ground and pound (except Serra 2.) George is starting to remind me of Tim Sylvia when he had his tenure as heavyweight champ, he's fighting to not lose instead of fighting to win. Similarly, before Tim and GSP touched gold they were both exciting to watch, they fought with more passion and vigor instead of conservative tactics to preserve their legacy. I used to be excited for GSP fights, but unless the rest of the card is stacked, tonight will be my last purchase of a GSP headliner.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 06:21 AM
True, but you know me I call it like I see it no matter if hes my favorite fighter or not. Its pretty sad when you can sit there and watch a fight and pretty much know whats expected. Its like watching a WWE wrestling match or show. I havewnt watched a show in years and when I turned it on the other nite for Monday Night Raw. I pretty much could still call everything out.

But it's not really the same, because we KNOW the WWE is scripted. It's a part of all sports that there are athletes who dominate, and all of the biggest stars get criticized in some way or another throughout history. However, nobody is as hard on it's top stars as fans of MMA and Boxing.

StizzoFoShizzo
03-28-2010, 06:28 AM
I'd say 8/10 fighters tap out to the first armbar alone, nevermind the kimura. Hardy knew this was his only chance and He would have to be put to sleep or have the ref stop the fight for him to lose. I honostly think if GSP rips his arm off, Hardy woulda continued to fight one armed! But to say GSP didn't try to finish that fight is horse crap. 2 fully extended subs say otherwise. If this was Kos, fitch, Alvez, Rumble, they all would have been tapped in round 1 from the armbar. But it just happened to be that Hardy was crazy enough to risk permanent damage and not give a crap if he was going to be out for months on injury suspension, when most fighters would just tap and "live to fight another day". I do agree that GSPs ground and pound seemed to be severely lacking in this fight though. He had some success standing in the guard, but by no means was he as effective breaking Hardy like he did to Alvez, Fitch, Penn.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 06:31 AM
Absolutely right. Good way of wording it, too. The first comparison that comes to my mind is comparing Georges to Matt. IMO Georges has a LONG way to go to fill those shoes and be known as the greatest WW of all times. He is very dominant, yes, but he doesn't possess the killer instinct that Matt Hughes had during his title reign. Out of 14 title fights, only ONE of Matt's went to a decision, including his losses. Another similarity between GSP and Matt, is that they are both excellent role models for the sport.

I don't mean to always sound like I'm bashing Georges, but the Georges I remember on the ground is the Georges that beatdown Jason Miller, Karo and Frank Trigg. Karo and Miller went to a decision, but neither of those two fights were boring. Since the first Serra fight, Georges seems to have forgotten his RUTHLESS ground and pound (except Serra 2.) George is starting to remind me of Tim Sylvia when he had his tenure as heavyweight champ, he's fighting to not lose instead of fighting to win. Similarly, before Tim and GSP touched gold they were both exciting to watch, they fought with more passion and vigor instead of conservative tactics to preserve their legacy. I used to be excited for GSP fights, but unless the rest of the card is stacked, tonight will be my last purchase of a GSP headliner.

Fight fans want it both ways though.

They don't want to see a guy who loses, but they get mad when fighters fight smart to win their fights. The fans are quick to want to see ruthless aggression, just like they love to watch 60 yard touchdown passes, slam-dunks, and home-runs. It's appealing to watch, and it's something that even the most casual fans of any sport will be attracted to. However, these sports are about MORE than just those things. True baseball fans appreciate a perfect game as much as a walk-off grand-slam, but most fight fans don't appreciate the fight-game as a whole in the same way.

AMJ
03-28-2010, 06:32 AM
GSP simply outclassed Dan Hardy, I'll agree that he could have hurt Hardy more but what's wrong with winning in a dominating fashion? I found it entertaining but I guess everyone has their own opinion on entertainment.

Hardy didn't mount a single effective attack, he didn't even try to sprawl on any takedowns. He kept talking about his training camp being amazing but just because you lift weights and practice jits with the Serra boys doesn't mean you're prepared for a world-class GSP.

All Hardy did was survive, he didn't make it into a fight. I give him respect for surviving but for all his talk about knocking Georges out, he just didn't have the ability to deliver on those words.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 06:34 AM
GSP can't finish a fight.
well we know that :laugh:

AMJ
03-28-2010, 06:34 AM
Fight fans want it both ways though.

They don't want to see a guy who loses, but they get mad when fighters fight smart to win their fights. The fans are quick to want to see ruthless aggression, just like they love to watch 60 yard touchdown passes, slam-dunks, and home-runs. It's appealing to watch, and it's something that even the most casual fans of any sport will be attracted to. However, these sports are about MORE than just those things. True baseball fans appreciate a perfect game as much as a walk-off grand-slam, but most fight fans don't appreciate the fight-game as a whole in the same way.


100% agreed.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 06:41 AM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

INDEED :) Lets face it GSP is a brilliant point scorer...but when it comes to fighting so that you either win or you lose, so that your aim is to finish the fight, to ultimately defeat the other guy...he cant do it....or at least he hasnt done ever since the start of his Reign

people went on and on about how Hardy shouldnt have been in their, Hardy was going to get sqaushed, distroyed...and GSP the world class striker and wrestler...cant even finish the Brit...like he's failed to finish anyone...lets put it this way

...match GSP as "dominant" next to BJ Penn as "dominant" if you cant see the difference in their title reigns and their abilities to clean out a division then you've got serious rose tinted glasses. I despise BJ Penn...but at least he fights and he DOES finish and he DOES crush and distroy his opponents at a title level.

so...another pyric victory for GSP, long may he reign :rolleyes::laugh:

timmyja
03-28-2010, 06:44 AM
Fight fans want it both ways though.

They don't want to see a guy who loses, but they get mad when fighters fight smart to win their fights. The fans are quick to want to see ruthless aggression, just like they love to watch 60 yard touchdown passes, slam-dunks, and home-runs. It's appealing to watch, and it's something that even the most casual fans of any sport will be attracted to. However, these sports are about MORE than just those things. True baseball fans appreciate a perfect game as much as a walk-off grand-slam, but most fight fans don't appreciate the fight-game as a whole in the same way.

Agreed. I definitely see your point.

I think my aggravation is more fueled from the hype surrounding GSP than it is about his performances. If he moves to 185 I'd like to see him fight Okami or Sonnen first, if it's going to be a wrestling match then let's at least pair Georges with another wrestler!! :laugh:

J.B.
03-28-2010, 06:49 AM
INDEED :) Lets face it GSP is a brilliant point scorer...but when it comes to fighting so that you either win or you lose, so that your aim is to finish the fight, to ultimately defeat the other guy...he cant do it....or at least he hasnt done ever since the start of his Reign

people went on and on about how Hardy shouldnt have been in their, Hardy was going to get sqaushed, distroyed...and GSP the world class striker and wrestler...cant even finish the Brit...like he's failed to finish anyone...lets put it this way

...match GSP as "dominant" next to BJ Penn as "dominant" if you cant see the difference in their title reigns and their abilities to clean out a division then you've got serious rose tinted glasses. I despise BJ Penn...but at least he fights and he DOES finish and he DOES crush and distroy his opponents at a title level.

so...another pyric victory for GSP, long may he reign :rolleyes::laugh:

GSP has finished 3 of his last 6 fights. One was against Matt and another was against BJ Penn. So what does that say?

That's 50% over the last 6 six fights and people want to act like he sucks. :rolleyes:

StizzoFoShizzo
03-28-2010, 07:13 AM
GSP has finished 3 of his last 6 fights. One was against Matt and another was against BJ Penn. So what does that say?

That's 50% over the last 6 six fights and people want to act like he sucks. :rolleyes:

You're on a roll tonight!

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 07:13 AM
http://mmajunkie.com/news/18482/ufc-111-suspensions-palhares-receives-disciplinary-action-riddle-out-indefinitely.mma

Wow, I didn't feel like he held it too long.
and Riddle is out for good?

sender
03-28-2010, 07:17 AM
Great night of fights! Props to Hardy though his mad heart in the subs...


EXTREME!

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:18 AM
http://mmajunkie.com/news/18482/ufc-111-suspensions-palhares-receives-disciplinary-action-riddle-out-indefinitely.mma

Wow, I didn't feel like he held it too long.
and Riddle is out for good?

probably not for good, indefinitely just means until he can be cleared to return.

Maldonado136
03-28-2010, 07:28 AM
"I wanted to finish the fight in beautiful fashion. I'm very sorry." hes as frustrated as some of us are. he seemed a little more impatient in the post fight conference I think he may be starting the listen to people talking. he also said that he was trying to go for the break if Hardy didnt want to tap. Id personally love to see him fight Almeida I think that could be a unique challenge for him.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:31 AM
You're on a roll tonight!

:laugh:

I'm just pointing out something that is clearly obvious, but we tend to ignore it. Fight fans are quite fickle, and the guys at the top of the game are constantly battling silly criticisms regardless of how often or impressively they win. Obviously, fighters are not like sports teams, because fighters come and go, while teams are typically there for many years and establish a legacy and fanbase that spans generations. So, in the fight game, the buzz around the top fighters is driven as much, if not more, by the amount of criticism the fighter receives as their actual accomplishments.

We, as fight fans, chew them up and spit them out like no other sport.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 07:54 AM
GSP has finished 3 of his last 6 fights. One was against Matt and another was against BJ Penn. So what does that say?

That's 50% over the last 6 six fights and people want to act like he sucks. :rolleyes:

:laugh: I might just be a sore loser this time. I really though that Hardy would pull it off :unsure-1:

logrus
03-28-2010, 08:42 AM
Boring is boring no matter how you dissect it. Gsp's fights used to be exciting no matter how they ended. Nowadays you pretty much know how the fight is gonna go regardless who hes fighting.

I am not the only one to think this, not only that but I think Gsp is realizing that his fights are not worth the time to watch. Will he change and go for the kill next fight, probably not. He will will most likely play it safe, and look to score points with the judges.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:58 AM
GSP is a Blanket,
certainly more active tonight than before, but a Blanket none the less.
He had Hardy completely outclassed, and couldn't put him away.
The only round worth watching to me, was the second.
I personally do not care if a fighter wins or losses, I like seeing a guy fight,
take risks, and lay it on the line to stop the damn fight.
GSP doesn't seem to be willing to do that.
(even his Serra(2nd) and BJ Stoppages were about as excited as the CC/Dos Santos stoppage.)
WHERE IS YOUR KILLER INSTINCT GSP?


Fitch = Poor mans GSP.
Fitch REALLY needs to finish a fight.
7 Decisions in a row, COME ON. He hasn't finished a fight since 2007.
He can't even put a guy away who was on the pre lims,
moved up on one days notice and is ranked WELL below him.



Palhares is an ANIMAL,
and to me, he didn't hold the submission too long,
he stopped when the ref grabbed him, isn't that what you're suppose to do?

Carwin... wow.
What great show of class, and skill.
I thought this fight would be MUCH more competitive,
but no.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:59 AM
Oh, and on another note,
Dan Mirgliotta let that fight go WAYYYYYYYYYYY too long.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 09:03 AM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

This.
GSP = AMAZING control and TD's.
But lacks a killer instinct.

F34R
03-28-2010, 11:13 AM
I called it.... GSP by boring decision. He's sealed my decisions not to buy any of his fights.
Not surprised by the Carwin win.. Mir, what the heck!!?? Cmon.
The free undercard was great. Didn't like seeing Matt Brown lose. :(

County Mike
03-28-2010, 11:52 AM
I thought the GSP fight was exciting. I also think he could've broken Hardy's arm and chose not too. He had more room to go with the Kimura and didn't take it. Some might say he lacks the killer instinct but I think he just chose not to break a guy's arm because he didn't have to break it. He was going to win anyway.

Rousimer is a total A-hole though. He felt the tapping and the ref was pulling on him to release the hold. He kept cranking it anyway. He meant to destroy that knee. It was no accident.

Pelligrino for fight of the night? That was super entertaining.

Blade
03-28-2010, 12:28 PM
I thought the GSP fight was exciting. I also think he could've broken Hardy's arm and chose not too. He had more room to go with the Kimura and didn't take it. Some might say he lacks the killer instinct but I think he just chose not to break a guy's arm because he didn't have to break it. He was going to win anyway.

Rousimer is a total A-hole though. He felt the tapping and the ref was pulling on him to release the hold. He kept cranking it anyway. He meant to destroy that knee. It was no accident.

Pelligrino for fight of the night? That was super entertaining.

That's bullsh*t about GSP choosing not to break Hardy's arm. Go watch/read the interviews and press conference. He was trying 100% to finish both submissions, regardless of the potential for breakage.

GSP is a magnificently talented fighter and athlete but he's become boring and predictable. Nobody will remember anything GSP did in that fight a year from now but everyone will remember Hardy's toughness in that fight for years to come, so if GSP wants a legacy he'd better go find some balls from somewhere.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 12:53 PM
Boring is boring no matter how you dissect it. Gsp's fights used to be exciting no matter how they ended. Nowadays you pretty much know how the fight is gonna go regardless who hes fighting.

I am not the only one to think this, not only that but I think Gsp is realizing that his fights are not worth the time to watch. Will he change and go for the kill next fight, probably not. He will will most likely play it safe, and look to score points with the judges.

No, you are not the only to think that, but it doesn't make the opinion any more valid. Fight fans are fickle and typically feel like they were robbed of something if they don't see a guy convulsing on the canvas or if the opponent leaves with all his limbs in tact. Then, we wonder why it's taken so long to change the image of the sport from "human cock-fighting" to "Mixed Martial Arts".

J.B.
03-28-2010, 01:00 PM
GSP is a Blanket,
certainly more active tonight than before, but a Blanket none the less.
He had Hardy completely outclassed, and couldn't put him away.
The only round worth watching to me, was the second.
I personally do not care if a fighter wins or losses, I like seeing a guy fight,
take risks, and lay it on the line to stop the damn fight.
GSP doesn't seem to be willing to do that.
(even his Serra(2nd) and BJ Stoppages were about as excited as the CC/Dos Santos stoppage.)
WHERE IS YOUR KILLER INSTINCT GSP?


Fitch = Poor mans GSP.
Fitch REALLY needs to finish a fight.
7 Decisions in a row, COME ON. He hasn't finished a fight since 2007.
He can't even put a guy away who was on the pre lims,
moved up on one days notice and is ranked WELL below him.


Here is an idea...why don't we just do away with judges, rounds, and time-limits, and just let them fight to the death?

No wait, that's still too boring...why don't we give them knives too?

cubsfan47
03-28-2010, 01:12 PM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

What he said.

wavetar
03-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Lol. Would any other fighter putting on a dominating performance create a 10 plus page thread of people arguing about how he should actually have fought on this forum? Crazy.

Sure, I was disappointed that he didn't finish Hardy. But am I disappointed in GSP himself? No. Just the result. He was in the locker room immediately after the fight, going over what he did wrong with the armbar & kimura with his coaches. How can I not appreciate that? For the record, they said he did nothing wrong on the armbar, just that Hardy would rather have his arm broken than tap, period. For the kimura, he held the arm much too straight. They showed him how keeping it bent is much more painful & effective. Doesn't mean Hardy would have tapped (cause he's obviously a tough SOB & probably a tad crazy to boot), but it would have been a much better arm-break position, had he chosen to do so. The guy is 28 & still learning.

He also tried for the RNC, several times. Hardy defended it well, no question. Comparing today's fighters with Frank Trigg of 5 years ago is stupid...first, Trigg can't defend the choke...never could. Second, fighters now train specifically to defend it, so unless they make a technical mistake, it ain't happening.

Hardy had exactly what he said he would have...5 chances to finish the fight standing...the first 10 seconds of each round. He couldn't execute, just like everyone else can't against GSP.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 01:26 PM
Lol. Would any other fighter putting on a dominating performance create a 10 plus page thread of people arguing about how he should actually have fought on this forum? Crazy.

Sure, I was disappointed that he didn't finish Hardy. But am I disappointed in GSP himself? No. Just the result. He was in the locker room immediately after the fight, going over what he did wrong with the armbar & kimura with his coaches. How can I not appreciate that?

Thank you.

Imagine how stupid I would sound if I said I was disappointed in 1996 Chicago Bulls because they didn't win every one of their 72 victories by more than 20 points.

Blade
03-28-2010, 01:32 PM
I'm puzzled. GSP has trained BJJ with Renzo Gracie and gone on special trips to Brazil to work exclusively on his BJJ, and he trains that stuff virtually every day of his life and has done for years, and has received the best instruction and coaching, and yet he still can't perform an armbar and kimura properly and has to be shown how to do it properly after the fight? It's not exactly rocket science is it? Is this Frog retarded or something?

Silverback
03-28-2010, 01:37 PM
I agree fully with everything you said .

george didnt beat Hardy thisevening , He out wrestled him in an over hyped sparring match. Dont care what anyone says , that wasnt a fight. He couldnt tap that kid and he gave it all he had on that arm bar and that kimura. Rogan kept blowing about how easily he passed his guard , but that doesnt matter if you dont do anything when you pass it. He had Dans back what , 5 - 6 times ? and still couldnt finish that fight .

St pierre didnt beat Dan Hardy , He controlled him , that goes without saying , but he sure as hell didnt beat him.

Mac I agree with you 110%, way to sum it up, and a warning my friend, Mark is headed to the lawyer come Monday, your goat support payments are going up, just a heads up my friend.:tongue0011::tongue0011::tongue0011:

Spiritwalker
03-28-2010, 01:39 PM
Lets go GSP...Not a fan of his, but I don't like Hardy, I get a very douchebag vibe from him

haha, GSP coming out to Notorious B.I.G....When you think of GSP, you don't really think gangster music lol


Was thinking the same thing!!!

wavetar
03-28-2010, 01:40 PM
As for Carwin, all I can say is wow! I had picked Mir & fully expected im to outclass Shane, but I was completely wrong! The man is a beast, no doubt.

Did anyone else notice they list him at 6'5", but he actually looks shorter than both Mir and Lesnar, listed as 6'3"? Is the camera playing tricks on me?

I really wanted Nate Diaz to get KTFO, but figured he'd pull off the win against Markham. I didn't expect the TKO though.

Big Dog Almeida looked really good at 170. Can't wait to see him get tested against a higher level fighter.

Palhares did what people always preach...don't let go until the ref stops it. Not sure how that makes him an asshole. It was a perfectly good heel hook. People get hurt in this sport, they are at risk to have a limb broken every time they step in to the cage. If you don't want to see it, tune into a different sport.

I'm with the majority...I do not want to see a Fitch/GSP II...Fitched showed me nothing to make me think he'd fare any better the second time around.

wavetar
03-28-2010, 01:43 PM
I'm puzzled. GSP has trained BJJ with Renzo Gracie and gone on special trips to Brazil to work exclusively on his BJJ, and he trains that stuff virtually every day of his life and has done for years, and has received the best instruction and coaching, and yet he still can't perform an armbar and kimura properly and has to be shown how to do it properly after the fight? It's not exactly rocket science is it? Is this Frog retarded or something?

:laugh: Well, when everyone you train with taps out with your current technique, I suppose you don't think you have any more to learn.

Blade
03-28-2010, 01:45 PM
:laugh: Well, when everyone you train with taps out with your current technique, I suppose you don't think you have any more to learn.

Yeah I think GSP and that dude with the crap hair are wrong, there was nothing wrong with both subs. Hardy is just that damn mentally tough. Greg Jackson said it best.

wavetar
03-28-2010, 01:48 PM
Yeah I think GSP and that dude with the crap hair are wrong, there was nothing wrong with both subs. Hardy is just that damn mentally tough. Greg Jackson said it best.

Hardy is as mentally tough as they come! Props to him, for sure.

Silverback
03-28-2010, 01:57 PM
[QUOTE=wavetar;107392]As for Carwin, all I can say is wow! I had picked Mir & fully expected im to outclass Shane, but I was completely wrong! The man is a beast, no doubt.

Did anyone else notice they list him at 6'5", but he actually looks shorter than both Mir and Lesnar, listed as 6'3"? Is the camera playing tricks on me?

I had Shane all the way, he is on a mission, he wants Lesner, and yes Lesner is taller the Shane, Carwin will knock-out Lesner when they meet, but it will not be first round.:punch::punch::punch:

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 02:03 PM
Here is an idea...why don't we just do away with judges, rounds, and time-limits, and just let them fight to the death?

No wait, that's still too boring...why don't we give them knives too?

Good job your not a Roman isnt it. :laugh:

They fought with knives...and did you know...only about two in every card about the size of a UFC card would die...and it wasnt usually a battle to the death. One guy would submit due to injuries...and it would be up to the Emporar to order the other Gladiator to either kill him, or spare him.

Deaths were honourable, and the dead were laid in special cemetaries reserved for Gladiators.

As for deaths...what about films...you see people "die" on set and stage all the time...somehow thats alright...so long as we know its not real? The symbology and the violence people crave can be quieted by a substitute to the real thing...the fake thing...the symbology is that real....and essentially the symbology in an MMA match, or infact any competative sport is exactly the same...its all about the discorse of power...infact...your whole life is about that too...thats why you act differently to different people. You can discipline your young child...but you cant discipline your line manager at work. We are all held in webs and nets of power flowing one way or the other

So be careful of using a moral strand in your arguments, when MMA IS an evolution of the Gladiatorial Battles, whether people really die or not...We pay for a product, they offer a service...if we dont like what we get, we have ample right to complain. People watch it, lots of people for the thrills of the violence, for seeing their favourite fighter squash another guy...on the back of our minds we find Shane Carwin over GSP...not because he was more tallented...but because of how he performed.

Why do you think one of the most used pictures recently, is not of BJ Penn after beating Joe Stevenson...but Joe Stevenson covered in his own blood :huh: deep down...we want to see it...whilst it isnt true death...we cant claim that somehow a deep appreciation of Penns rear naked choke skills to finish Joe off was any better morally, or symbologically then had he gutted him with a knife.

There is less distinction between Violence and Symbolic Violence, Death and a portrayal of Submission then you think...they are effectively the same thing in the minds of those who watch and compete.

You've inspired me...I must record my thesis and host it on youtube....I did it into Symbolic Violence...sadly it doesnt look at MMA but Professional wrestling because its as close a comparison as I could get at the time...but...you know...noone is perfect. :laugh:

Blade
03-28-2010, 02:07 PM
You've inspired me...I must record my thesis and host it on youtube....

You'll make the site crash, there isn't that much room on youtube.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 02:26 PM
Good job your not a Roman isnt it. :laugh:

They fought with knives...and did you know...only about two in every card about the size of a UFC card would die...and it wasnt usually a battle to the death. One guy would submit due to injuries...and it would be up to the Emporar to order the other Gladiator to either kill him, or spare him.

Deaths were honourable, and the dead were laid in special cemetaries reserved for Gladiators.

As for deaths...what about films...you see people "die" on set and stage all the time...somehow thats alright...so long as we know its not real? The symbology and the violence people crave can be quieted by a substitute to the real thing...the fake thing...the symbology is that real....and essentially the symbology in an MMA match, or infact any competative sport is exactly the same...its all about the discorse of power...infact...your whole life is about that too...thats why you act differently to different people. You can discipline your young child...but you cant discipline your line manager at work. We are all held in webs and nets of power flowing one way or the other

So be careful of using a moral strand in your arguments, when MMA IS an evolution of the Gladiatorial Battles, whether people really die or not...We pay for a product, they offer a service...if we dont like what we get, we have ample right to complain. People watch it, lots of people for the thrills of the violence, for seeing their favourite fighter squash another guy...on the back of our minds we find Shane Carwin over GSP...not because he was more tallented...but because of how he performed.

Why do you think one of the most used pictures recently, is not of BJ Penn after beating Joe Stevenson...but Joe Stevenson covered in his own blood :huh: deep down...we want to see it...whilst it isnt true death...we cant claim that somehow a deep appreciation of Penns rear naked choke skills to finish Joe off was any better morally, or symbologically then had he gutted him with a knife.

There is less distinction between Violence and Symbolic Violence, Death and a portrayal of Submission then you think...they are effectively the same thing in the minds of those who watch and compete.

You've inspired me...I must record my thesis and host it on youtube....I did it into Symbolic Violence...sadly it doesnt look at MMA but Professional wrestling because its as close a comparison as I could get at the time...but...you know...noone is perfect. :laugh:

This IS NOT ancient Roman times, so don't even go there. At that point, people are taking it WAY too seriously and turning into something that it is not. If there really was no psychological difference between wanting to see a good fight where the better fighter wins convincingly and seeing somebody get stabbed to death then we would still be living the damn stone age. You are absolutely right that people crave violence, and I have been saying that is part of the problem. However, clearly on the whole this is NOT the same as it was during the time of Roman Gladiators, even if the UFC blatantly uses that image.

Sure, you have the right to complain, but it don't mean your complaints are any more valid than 90% of the ridiculous nitpicking that goes on over every single fighter and every single fight. You may have the right to complain, but I have the right to use logic to explain why you are being ridiculous.

In fact, everything you said actually only proves my point even more. Fight fans feel like they have a sense of entitlement more than any other group of sports fans I have encountered, with Hockey being a close 2nd. Fighters at the top of their game are the most scrutinized athletes in the world, and it's crazy that so many fans who say they love the sport and want to see it flourish are actually part of the problem that holds the sport back.

billwilliams70
03-28-2010, 02:50 PM
Holy cow, Carwin is a beast...Dominated Mir...Lesnar better watch out because Carwin possesses that strength and athleticism as well

Pellegrino looked amazing as well
Mir was DESTROYED!!!! That was better than the beating Brock put on him.

Now it's time for HARDY/GSP:punch:
I respect Mir's abilities, but I really can't stand the image that is portrayed of him. He very well could be a cool guy....but he comes off as an arrogant butthead and I'm glad that Carwin whipped him.

Later.

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I thought the GSP fight was exciting. I also think he could've broken Hardy's arm and chose not too. He had more room to go with the Kimura and didn't take it. Some might say he lacks the killer instinct but I think he just chose not to break a guy's arm because he didn't have to break it. He was going to win anyway.

Rousimer is a total A-hole though. He felt the tapping and the ref was pulling on him to release the hold. He kept cranking it anyway. He meant to destroy that knee. It was no accident.

Pelligrino for fight of the night? That was super entertaining.

I agree with Blade that GSP was going for it with the armbar and kimura. Did you see Hardy's face during those. Maybe GSP wasn't doing it exactly right. He seemed to think that when he told Joe he was going to have to get with his coach and see what he was doing wrong.

I agree with you 100% regarding Palhares! :angry: Did you see my previous post about Palhares earlier in the thread?--I meant it too! :punch: The ref had to pry his hands off. He said he was sorry, but like you, I think he meant to destroy Drwal's knee. He is a total A-hole and he looked like an ape.

He was trying 100% to finish both submissions, regardless of the potential for breakage.

GSP is a magnificently talented fighter and athlete but he's become boring and predictable. Nobody will remember anything GSP did in that fight a year from now but everyone will remember Hardy's toughness in that fight for years to come, so if GSP wants a legacy he'd better go find some balls from somewhere.

GSP has the win, but you're right, it's Hardy's toughness that shined through. That's what I took away from this fight. I'll be surprised if we don't hear Rogan bring it up when he's commentating Hardy's next fight.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 03:10 PM
I respect Mir's abilities, but I really can't stand the image that is portrayed of him. He very well could be a cool guy....but he comes off as an arrogant butthead and I'm glad that Carwin whipped him.

Later.

he doesn't come off that way ... he is that way ...

billwilliams70
03-28-2010, 03:13 PM
he doesn't come off that way ... he is that way ...
You know him?

The reason I said it that way is is because there are many people out there that think the same of Matt......but even through this board I feel that nothing could be further from the truth.

Later.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 03:38 PM
You know him?

The reason I said it that way is is because there are many people out there that think the same of Matt......but even through this board I feel that nothing could be further from the truth.

Later.

yeah, have you ever heard matt saying he wanted to kill someone in the cage? swear his head off in the cage after winning a fight? talk about ripping off limbs? ...

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 03:45 PM
:laugh:

GSPs look was priceless!

it was like......... "This crazy ***** isn't going to tap......is someone going to call it?"

I know it's not funny (especially to Georges), but, I can't help it, when you think back on the fight and all those sub attempts. :laugh: He goes for the arm bar....kimura....several RNC's.....and then....knee bar.... :laugh:

It had to be frustrating. :laugh:

I think other guys wanting to fight GSP or refight him should watch video of this fight. Lots of stuff in there (from both fighters) that could be useful, I think.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 04:22 PM
I know it's not funny (especially to Georges), but, I can't help it, when you think back on the fight and all those sub attempts. :laugh: He goes for the arm bar....kimura....several RNC's.....and then....knee bar.... :laugh:

It had to be frustrating. :laugh:

I think other guys wanting to fight GSP or refight him should watch video of this fight. Lots of stuff in there (from both fighters) that could be useful, I think.

exactly what fitch said afterward ... but i still see GSP controlling him for the entire fight ...

wavetar
03-28-2010, 04:36 PM
exactly what fitch said afterward ... but i still see GSP controlling him for the entire fight ...

Agreed. Fitch didn't show anything in the Saunders fight to make me think a second fight with GSP would be any different from the first. They have similar styles but there isn't a single area where GSP isn't better than Fitch.

logrus
03-28-2010, 04:41 PM
No, you are not the only to think that, but it doesn't make the opinion any more valid. Fight fans are fickle and typically feel like they were robbed of something if they don't see a guy convulsing on the canvas or if the opponent leaves with all his limbs in tact. Then, we wonder why it's taken so long to change the image of the sport from "human cock-fighting" to "Mixed Martial Arts".

Isn't that what we do though. Don't we always break down a fighters performance for the night. Your just as guilty as the next guy when it comes to that.

Some fight fans only want to see this because they are degenerates from boxing were there not happy unless the guys swing for the fences for every round. Like I said though were not a bunch of idiots on these forums, we understand every aspect of the mma fight. Yet some of us understand that while Gsp was dominate, his fight was a typical boring Gsp fight.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 04:46 PM
This IS NOT ancient Roman times, so don't even go there. At that point, people are taking it WAY too seriously and turning into something that it is not. If there really was no psychological difference between wanting to see a good fight where the better fighter wins convincingly and seeing somebody get stabbed to death then we would still be living the damn stone age. You are absolutely right that people crave violence, and I have been saying that is part of the problem. However, clearly on the whole this is NOT the same as it was during the time of Roman Gladiators, even if the UFC blatantly uses that image.

Sure, you have the right to complain, but it don't mean your complaints are any more valid than 90% of the ridiculous nitpicking that goes on over every single fighter and every single fight. You may have the right to complain, but I have the right to use logic to explain why you are being ridiculous.

In fact, everything you said actually only proves my point even more. Fight fans feel like they have a sense of entitlement more than any other group of sports fans I have encountered, with Hockey being a close 2nd. Fighters at the top of their game are the most scrutinized athletes in the world, and it's crazy that so many fans who say they love the sport and want to see it flourish are actually part of the problem that holds the sport back.

1) after more then a year of research into Sports Ethnography pertaining to symbolic violence, and dangerous sports, I wholeheartedly dissagree with you, as would many of those I studied.

It seems to me that in every age this violent impulse arises, the form it takes concerns the morality of the day. Its curbed by morality...but its gets worse and worse until its stopped altogether, and then, in someway it reappears and always will because it appears to be a driving force behind alot of people. It seems to go in cycles...and it has to get more and more intense for it to satisfy.

Consider how MMA particularly the UFC is the result of people who, effectively are not happy with being the best in their respective art, but feel the need to proove their art is better then the others. Consider how even today it is made up of people who somehow need to proove themselves competatively, consider why some old fighters cant stay retired for very long...ask yourself WHY they keep coming back...watch those who do retire...what do they move onto, study and see how many fighters come from broken or damaged homes or childhoods in some way.

Consider also how things like Cinematic Horror have moved on in under a century. Watch back and laugh at what a Generation less then 100 years ago found frightening...and compare it to the more realistic portrayal today, ask yourself why we arent still satisfied with the silent Dracula movies any more

I always advocate a knowledge of the person within the sport, I more then many have been accused of it, laughed at because of it, because I care about the man more then the fighter, I care about their attitude as a champion more then I do the fact they won a belt on skills.

BUT it was you who suddenly injected a moral strand into the argument in order to try and show how critics like me are just fickle and dont care about the game itself, just wanting to see some stunning KO or Submission...and you should know that I honnest to GOD know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say to you...DONT follow that route in trying to show me as some barbarian...because deep down its a part of us all in one way or another...why we can only speculate...but its there...The Violence Seeking Impulse is their in all of us, its a part maybe and a response to what is truely primal...Worth...to show ones worth as a man...to become and be counted as a man...to reach your potential...to have, as Friederich Nietzsche would say "your becoming" to be transformed, ultimately, to be not only a man...but to be THE man...to be King of your Division...to become a Superman. Its called Will to Power I think...we all do two things, satisfy that urge to receive a rush in that symbolic way when we see a power discourse played out...and we all try and ultimately become, reach out goal, find and be successful in our lifes ambition.

Fighters, like any person in the public eye put themselves in the position of scrutiny. Its the ultimate price of fame. What would you have us do. Say nothing :huh: have no opinion :huh: Its because it is SO primal and raw, just two men on a right of passage, that the fans are so hot headed about it...STUDY ROME...we are STILL "The Mob" that hasnt changed. Mobs bring about Real Change if you adhere to their wants, they exault you...if you piss them off enough, they will bring you down. Eventually The Mob gets their way I reckon :)

Besides...Georges appologised...he's obviously paying attention...just like Loyoto Machida when we all said he's fantastic but boring....he put in the effort to appease, and we all fell silent with respect....until his last fight, but technically, his win wasnt his fault but the Judges who wrongly awarded him :laugh:

bj44
03-28-2010, 04:50 PM
why doesnt anyone blame Hardy for the fight being boring... I though he was gonna go balls to the wall? He should off been all over GSP the times he reversed him but he hesitated and let him get up... He was more passive in this fight then GSP was all he did was defend.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 04:52 PM
You'll make the site crash, there isn't that much room on youtube.

O Ye of Little Faith :ninja:

:laugh:

bradwright
03-28-2010, 04:53 PM
Hardy is a puncher...not an MMA fighter.
the problem in this fight was Hardy couldn't figure out how to hit Georges and because he couldn't do the only thing he knows how to do he had no chance what so ever to win.
it was like GSP was fighting a crash test dummy....Hardy should have tapped twice in this fight and some of you say he didn't because he is one tough dude....well maybe it shows he is tough but it also shows he is stupid as well.

if he was actually competitive in this fight then i say by all means dont tap,get out of the sub attempt and then kick his ass...but when he was going to lose the fight no matter what anyway then what does it say about him when he would rather have his arm broken instead of tapping in a fight he had no chance to win ?

he should have never been in this fight in the first place.

Blade
03-28-2010, 04:55 PM
Hardy is a puncher...not an MMA fighter.
the problem in this fight was Hardy couldn't figure out how to hit Georges and because he couldn't do the only thing he knows how to do he had no chance what so ever to win.
it was like GSP was fighting a crash test dummy....Hardy should have tapped twice in this fight and some of you say he didn't because he is one tough dude....well maybe it shows he is tough but it also shows he is stupid as well.

if he was actually competitive in this fight then i say by all means dont tap,get out of the sub attempt and then kick his ass...but when he was going to lose the fight no matter what anyway then what does it say about him when he would rather have his arm broken instead of tapping in a fight he had no chance to win ?

he should have never been in this fight in the first place.

Shut up.

bradwright
03-28-2010, 04:57 PM
Shut up.

good come back.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 04:58 PM
he should have never been in this fight in the first place.


pray tell...Who do you think should have been in the fight in the first place :huh:

Blade
03-28-2010, 04:58 PM
good come back.

Thanks.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 04:58 PM
good come back.

:laugh: at least he tried :laugh:

got a heart like Dan Hardy...no :huh:

:laugh:

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:07 PM
pray tell...Who do you think should have been in the fight in the first place :huh:

well not Hardy thats for sure...i know you thought Hardy was going to kick Georges ass Dave but that was just wishful thinking on your part.

can you honestly say Hardy would beat Matt Hughes...or Matt Serra,or Kos ?
or how about Fitch or Alves?....stop me when i get to someone you think he would beat.

he should have had to win a fight against a couple of these guys first before he ever got a shot at the title.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 05:10 PM
Isn't that what we do though. Don't we always break down a fighters performance for the night. Your just as guilty as the next guy when it comes to that.

That's not the point. The point is that fight fans typically focus on the negative, and or "what-if", when judging top fighters like GSP. If the criticism wasn't that he was boring, it would have been that he fought a can, or he was greasing, or some other random thing. I never said I wasn't a fan who gives critical opinions of fighters, I am simply pointing out that fighters at the top of the sport get overly criticized more than just about any other set of athletes I can think of.


Some fight fans only want to see this because they are degenerates from boxing were there not happy unless the guys swing for the fences for every round. Like I said though were not a bunch of idiots on these forums, we understand every aspect of the mma fight. Yet some of us understand that while Gsp was dominate, his fight was a typical boring Gsp fight.

You are contradicting yourself and trying to bait me at the same time. Don't act like somehow it's Boxing's fault that idiot fans exist in MMA. If you want to think GSP is boring, by all means you are entitled to that opinion, but I just think it's a byproduct of what is essentially a double standard amongst fight fans. We trash fighters when they lose, and we trash them when they win. No matter what happens, people find a way to downgrade a fighter's performance. GSP has a few fights go to decision and all of sudden people have their panties in a bunch and start saying they will "never buy his fights again". Then they buy the next fight. Same crap with Anderson Silva, same with your favorite guy in the whole world Floyd Mayweather. :laugh:

bj44
03-28-2010, 05:16 PM
pray tell...Who do you think should have been in the fight in the first place :huh:

someone who would throw a punch.. i mean he was gonna get taken down whenever GSP shot anyway he should atleast been aggressive he didnt do anything this fight.

rearnakedchoke
03-28-2010, 05:19 PM
this is the first fight i remember gsp not throwing a spinning back kick ...

Blade
03-28-2010, 05:21 PM
someone who would throw a punch.. i mean he was gonna get taken down whenever GSP shot anyway he should atleast been aggressive he didnt do anything this fight.

My one criticism of Hardy is he should have thrown uppercuts and/or knees in the hope of tagging GSP when he shot in. Would have been nice to see him punish a few of the takedown attempts. But to respond to Bradwright who said Hardy is not a mixed martial artist, only a puncher. That's just nonsense. Dude, he spent 25 mins on his back against a P4P great and didn't take hardly any damage. That's no fluke. Compare the state of Hardy to the state of Fitch and Alves after they had similar experiences with GSP. They were beat up bad, Hardy was not. And you saying it was pointless of him not to tap if he was going to lose anyway, well that's just not worth responding to.

bj44
03-28-2010, 05:25 PM
My one criticism of Hardy is he should have thrown uppercuts and/or knees in the hope of tagging GSP when he shot in. Would have been nice to see him punish a few of the takedown attempts. But to respond to Bradwright who said Hardy is not a mixed martial artist, only a puncher. That's just nonsense. Dude, he spent 25 mins on his back against a P4P great and didn't take hardly any damage. That's no fluke. Compare the state of Hardy to the state of Fitch and Alves after they had similar experiences with GSP. They were beat up bad, Hardy was not. And you saying it was pointless of him not to tap if he was going to lose anyway, well that's just not worth responding to.

He showed good defensive skills but didnt live up to the hype that he created.. he reversed GSP twice and just let him get up rather then go after him. If you want to beat GSP you have to do more then just be defensive.. i understand hes a counter puncher but he should of been more agressive on his feet in the championship rounds cus he was getting taken down at will anyway

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:30 PM
My one criticism of Hardy is he should have thrown uppercuts and/or knees in the hope of tagging GSP when he shot in. Would have been nice to see him punish a few of the takedown attempts. But to respond to Bradwright who said Hardy is not a mixed martial artist, only a puncher. That's just nonsense. Dude, he spent 25 mins on his back against a P4P great and didn't take hardly any damage. That's no fluke. Compare the state of Hardy to the state of Fitch and Alves after they had similar experiences with GSP. They were beat up bad, Hardy was not. And you saying it was pointless of him not to tap if he was going to lose anyway, well that's just not worth responding to.

so tell me then...what did the great MMA fighter Dan Hardy do to win the fight besides spending 25 minutes on his back trying not to tap ?

if he really thought it was better to let his arm get broken then to tap in a fight he wasn't trying to win then i say yes it was pointless.

Bonnie
03-28-2010, 05:38 PM
My one criticism of Hardy is he should have thrown uppercuts and/or knees in the hope of tagging GSP when he shot in. Would have been nice to see him punish a few of the takedown attempts. But to respond to Bradwright who said Hardy is not a mixed martial artist, only a puncher. That's just nonsense. Dude, he spent 25 mins on his back against a P4P great and didn't take hardly any damage. That's no fluke. Compare the state of Hardy to the state of Fitch and Alves after they had similar experiences with GSP. They were beat up bad, Hardy was not. And you saying it was pointless of him not to tap if he was going to lose anyway, well that's just not worth responding to.

Yeah, and did you hear GSP tell Hardy that they would fight again. I think GSP felt a lot of respect for Hardy by the time the fight was over. I liked the way both of them paid the other respect after the fight.

Hardy obviously has much work to do to be a well-rounded mma fighter, but I think he can do it. I think he'll be an exciting fighter to watch the more he improves.

Blade
03-28-2010, 05:41 PM
so tell me then...what did the great MMA fighter Dan Hardy do to win the fight besides spending 25 minutes on his back trying not to tap ?

if he really thought it was better to let his arm get broken then to tap in a fight he wasn't trying to win then i say yes it was pointless.


What did he do to try and win the fight? Well for a start he trained for 14 weeks douche bag. And just because he wasn't successful doesn't mean he wasn't trying to win the fight. Yeah he's got flaws in his overall game, and he isn't on GSP's level yet, but compare GSP flapping his arm to tap like a rabid seal when Hughes slapped on an armbar on him in the last second, to Hardy not tapping several times last night when in much worse situations. If you can't appreciate that then you should stick to golf my good fellow.

Blade
03-28-2010, 05:42 PM
Yeah, and did you hear GSP tell Hardy that they would fight again. I think GSP felt a lot of respect for Hardy by the time the fight was over. I liked the way both of them paid the other respect after the fight.

Hardy obviously has much work to do to be a well-rounded mma fighter, but I think he can do it. I think he'll be an exciting fighter to watch the more he improves.

You're sensible.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 05:48 PM
Here is an idea...why don't we just do away with judges, rounds, and time-limits, and just let them fight to the death?

No wait, that's still too boring...why don't we give them knives too?

*shrug*
its mixed martial arts,
the idea of martial arts isn't to be sporting and kind,
it is to defend yourself and stop your opponent.

bradwright
03-28-2010, 05:50 PM
What did he do to try and win the fight? Well for a start he trained for 14 weeks douche bag. And just because he wasn't successful doesn't mean he wasn't trying to win the fight. Yeah he's got flaws in his overall game, and he isn't on GSP's level yet, but compare GSP flapping his arm to tap like a rabid seal when Hughes slapped on an armbar on him in the last second, to Hardy not tapping several times last night when in much worse situations. If you can't appreciate that then you should stick to golf my good fellow.

maybe he should have trained for 15 weeks then because 14 didn't do it for him.
if you feel you really need to resort to name calling to try and make a point then you should think about getting some help for your anger problem.

he never once tried to win the fight...he only tried to survive...big difference.

bj44
03-28-2010, 05:51 PM
What did he do to try and win the fight? Well for a start he trained for 14 weeks douche bag. And just because he wasn't successful doesn't mean he wasn't trying to win the fight. Yeah he's got flaws in his overall game, and he isn't on GSP's level yet, but compare GSP flapping his arm to tap like a rabid seal when Hughes slapped on an armbar on him in the last second, to Hardy not tapping several times last night when in much worse situations. If you can't appreciate that then you should stick to golf my good fellow.

GSP was 22 in that fight with hughes.. Hardy is almost as old as GSP and has 30 mma fights... He will never be a top ww he doesnt have the skill or the athletic ability

Blade
03-28-2010, 05:52 PM
maybe he should have trained for 15 weeks then because 14 didn't do it for him.
if you feel you really need to resort to name calling to try and make a point then you should think about getting some help for your anger problem.

he never once tried to win the fight...he only tried to survive...big difference.

lol Good point.

And come on man he tried to win. The fact that he never gave up shows he still had the desire and will to win. He tried and failed, that's it.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Consider how MMA particularly the UFC is the result of people who, effectively are not happy with being the best in their respective art, but feel the need to proove their art is better then the others. Consider how even today it is made up of people who somehow need to proove themselves competatively, consider why some old fighters cant stay retired for very long...ask yourself WHY they keep coming back...watch those who do retire...what do they move onto, study and see how many fighters come from broken or damaged homes or childhoods in some way.

You are absolutely right about a lot of fighters having a broken home or damaged childhood in some ways. Still, don't kid yourself, when you are at the highest level of today's modern fight game it only boils down to two things. Legacy and money. These fighters want to be the best, but they also want to make sure that when they are absolutely done fighting they have enough money to take care of them and their families. You can't fight forever, and fighters don't have retirement plans.


I always advocate a knowledge of the person within the sport, I more then many have been accused of it, laughed at because of it, because I care about the man more then the fighter, I care about their attitude as a champion more then I do the fact they won a belt on skills.

I know Dave, you make it real personal, and to understand the grander point I am making you need to think outside the box of me just talking about you, or even just people on this forum. Lots of fans take it way to seriously, and nitpick way to much when talking about fighters performances, and regardless of if they win or lose people always seem to find and exploit the negative to no end.


BUT it was you who suddenly injected a moral strand into the argument in order to try and show how critics like me are just fickle and dont care about the game itself, just wanting to see some stunning KO or Submission...and you should know that I honnest to GOD know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say to you...DONT follow that route in trying to show me as some barbarian...because deep down its a part of us all in one way or another...why we can only speculate...but its there...The Violence Seeking Impulse is their in all of us, its a part maybe and a response to what is truely primal...Worth...to show ones worth as a man...to become and be counted as a man...to reach your potential...to have, as Friederich Nietzsche would say "your becoming" to be transformed, ultimately, to be not only a man...but to be THE man...to be King of your Division...to become a Superman. Its called Will to Power I think...we all do two things, satisfy that urge to receive a rush in that symbolic way when we see a power discourse played out...and we all try and ultimately become, reach out goal, find and be successful in our lifes ambition.


That sounds like a great speech to read to a team before they exit the locker room, but you seem to have went off on a tangent. I said that there is a psychological difference between having an interest in seeing two men competing in MMA and having an interest in seeing somebody stabbed to death. Do you honestly disagree with that opinion? :huh:

You personally may not be one of those fans that are truly barbaric about it, but they DO exist, and they do tarnish the reputation of the sport.

Fighters, like any person in the public eye put themselves in the position of scrutiny. Its the ultimate price of fame. What would you have us do. Say nothing :huh: have no opinion :huh: Its because it is SO primal and raw, just two men on a right of passage, that the fans are so hot headed about it...STUDY ROME...we are STILL "The Mob" that hasnt changed. Mobs bring about Real Change if you adhere to their wants, they exault you...if you piss them off enough, they will bring you down. Eventually The Mob gets their way I reckon :)


Again, you and everybody else are entitled to their opinions, as am I. If you think GSP is boring, or Anderson Silva is boring, or Boxing is boring, then by all means, nobody is saying you have spend your money on those things. However, I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards that exist amongst fight fans. We want to see the sport flourish, but then we spend so much energy on tearing down the ones who end up getting mainstream success. It happens to every single fighter who becomes a star in some way or another. Some fighters deserve it more than others, but all of them end up being victims of the fans rabid cynicism.


Besides...Georges appologised...he's obviously paying attention...just like Loyoto Machida when we all said he's fantastic but boring....he put in the effort to appease, and we all fell silent with respect....until his last fight, but technically, his win wasnt his fault but the Judges who wrongly awarded him :laugh:

Lots of people apologize for lots of things. It's not like he owed it to you, me, or anybody else. It's not like he did something morally reprehensible. He is not Tiger Woods. He just didn't finish the fight. The guy still completely DOMINATED, but somehow that's not good enough....:rolleyes:

J.B.
03-28-2010, 05:56 PM
*shrug*
its mixed martial arts,
the idea of martial arts isn't to be sporting and kind,
it is to defend yourself and stop your opponent.

So why have rules at all?

Blade
03-28-2010, 05:56 PM
GSP was 22 in that fight with hughes.. Hardy is almost as old as GSP and has 30 mma fights... He will never be a top ww he doesnt have the skill or the athletic ability

GSP would still tap like that if he got caught in any sub regardless of his age and experience. He's part French for goodness sakes, their national flag should have a yellow streak running through it because those lot wave the white flag at the first sign of trouble. Plus GSP is a gunshy coward, he tapped out to strikes too from Serra. A true fighter should never tap out to strikes.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 05:57 PM
http://cdn.cagepotato.com/www/sites/default/files/Shane_Carwin_interim_belt.jpg

Carwin knows how to push a sponsor.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 05:59 PM
GSP in numbers.

While St. Pierre was unable to finish Hardy, the grappling clinic he put on set three new career highs for GSP:

11 takedowns landed (previous high, 10 vs. Alves)
6 submission attempts (previous high, 5 vs. Koscheck)
26 positional improvements (previous high, 14 vs. Miller)

Less impressive was the total number of heavy strikes landed by GSP. After landing a career-high 106 HiPer Strikes against Jon Fitch, St. Pierre's striking tally has declined in each of his last three fights:

49 vs. Penn (in four rounds)
41 vs. Alves
35 vs. Hardy

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 06:07 PM
well not Hardy thats for sure...i know you thought Hardy was going to kick Georges ass Dave but that was just wishful thinking on your part.

can you honestly say Hardy would beat Matt Hughes...or Matt Serra,or Kos ?
or how about Fitch or Alves?....stop me when i get to someone you think he would beat.

he should have had to win a fight against a couple of these guys first before he ever got a shot at the title.

do you wanna actually answer my question Brad :wink:

Blade
03-28-2010, 06:16 PM
well not Hardy thats for sure...i know you thought Hardy was going to kick Georges ass Dave but that was just wishful thinking on your part.

can you honestly say Hardy would beat Matt Hughes...or Matt Serra,or Kos ?
or how about Fitch or Alves?....stop me when i get to someone you think he would beat.

he should have had to win a fight against a couple of these guys first before he ever got a shot at the title.

At present with his dodgy wrestling I don't think Hardy would fare too well against Fitch or Kos, unless Kos opted to stand, in which case Hardy would bang him out. But I think Hardy would do well against Hughes, Serra and Alves.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 06:28 PM
That sounds like a great speech to read to a team before they exit the locker room, but you seem to have went off on a tangent. I said that there is a psychological difference between having an interest in seeing two men competing in MMA and having an interest in seeing somebody stabbed to death. Do you honestly disagree with that opinion? :huh:
2) The guy still completely DOMINATED, but somehow that's not good enough....:rolleyes:

1) Do you doubt the level of competition your seeing. Is it not true that fighters permanently injure themselves in these fights at times, isnt it true that psychological traumas from losing sometimes effect them well into the future.

Would you be able to appreciate the skills needed for a knife fight...take some of the martial arts that DO still train with knives, and sticks, take the sport of Fencing for example.

I've already told you that Gladiators almost never died in fights, if they did it was by accident. Gladiators were occasionally ceremonially executed after the fights by their opponent, on command of whoever was the senior. even then...your only talking about an aveage of two Glads per card as extensive as a UFC bout...well didnt two UFC fighters get seriously hurt and need to be cleared before they return...The odds of seeing someone "stabbed to death" simply didnt happen in the way your thinking unless it was a battle reconstruction, in which case it wasnt the Gladiators dying...or if it was an accident during combat.

As for the loser...it was considered an honourable way to die. A somewhat Glorious End so to speak. It wasnt like it was forced upon most of them...sure some of them were slaves...but it was actually an occupation for your Roman Citizen...particularly the main events and the truely loved guys, they werent slaves...they did it by choice...and if they died they accepted their fate and their families considered it as noble as being killed on the battlefield.

The gladiatorial battles, werent even comprised mostly of that type of fight anyway...they would begin with demonstrations, a bit like the UFC sometimes put on open training for some of their fighters the day before the fights, where the population could just watch them...the cards were only about the size of a UFC card...and on average only two losing Gladiators were purposefully executed.

Geez...perhaps I am a Barbarian :unsure-1::ninja::laugh:

2) I guess at the end of the day. No its not. Or at the very least, its not desireable

He was awarded a win...he didnt actually take the win.

In this day and age, with Judges being as bad as they are...thats a dangerous thing to do. Imagine if they had given it to Hardy :laugh: Just for one moment...the only way to be absolutely positively 100percent undesputedly the winner...is to finish...preferably in an absolutely undeniable way...like...Shane Carwin for example.

Now granted...we cant have perfection all the time, everybody...well mostly everybody, has decisions on their records...but the aim IS to try and finish to win, its NOT to point score to win.

As for seeing the sport flourish...nevermind what critics like me say...what about the far bigger implications of a large insitution that thinks it IS the sport, will squash competition that could IMPROVE the sport...and sells out the the Saudis :laugh:

Max
03-28-2010, 06:29 PM
Here is what I will say about this fight. GSP did beat Hardy, he took him down over and over again and had 2 great submission attempts. With that being said, those 2 submission attempts were the only exciting part of this fight.

Blade
03-28-2010, 06:35 PM
1) Do you doubt the level of competition your seeing. Is it not true that fighters permanently injure themselves in these fights at times, isnt it true that psychological traumas from losing sometimes effect them well into the future.

Would you be able to appreciate the skills needed for a knife fight...take some of the martial arts that DO still train with knives, and sticks, take the sport of Fencing for example.

I've already told you that Gladiators almost never died in fights, if they did it was by accident. Gladiators were occasionally ceremonially executed after the fights by their opponent, on command of whoever was the senior. even then...your only talking about an aveage of two Glads per card as extensive as a UFC bout...well didnt two UFC fighters get seriously hurt and need to be cleared before they return...The odds of seeing someone "stabbed to death" simply didnt happen in the way your thinking unless it was a battle reconstruction, in which case it wasnt the Gladiators dying...or if it was an accident during combat.

As for the loser...it was considered an honourable way to die. A somewhat Glorious End so to speak. It wasnt like it was forced upon most of them...sure some of them were slaves...but it was actually an occupation for your Roman Citizen...particularly the main events and the truely loved guys, they werent slaves...they did it by choice...and if they died they accepted their fate and their families considered it as noble as being killed on the battlefield.

The gladiatorial battles, werent even comprised mostly of that type of fight anyway...they would begin with demonstrations, a bit like the UFC sometimes put on open training for some of their fighters the day before the fights, where the population could just watch them...the cards were only about the size of a UFC card...and on average only two losing Gladiators were purposefully executed.

Geez...perhaps I am a Barbarian :unsure-1::ninja::laugh:

2) I guess at the end of the day. No its not. Or at the very least, its not desireable

He was awarded a win...he didnt actually take the win.

In this day and age, with Judges being as bad as they are...thats a dangerous thing to do. Imagine if they had given it to Hardy :laugh: Just for one moment...the only way to be absolutely positively 100percent undesputedly the winner...is to finish...preferably in an absolutely undeniable way...like...Shane Carwin for example.

Now granted...we cant have perfection all the time, everybody...well mostly everybody, has decisions on their records...but the aim IS to try and finish to win, its NOT to point score to win.

As for seeing the sport flourish...nevermind what critics like me say...what about the far bigger implications of a large insitution that thinks it IS the sport, will squash competition that could IMPROVE the sport...and sells out the the Saudis :laugh:

Jens Pulver should be ceremoniously executed then. Separate the wheat from the chaff and all that.

bradwright
03-28-2010, 06:50 PM
1) Do you doubt the level of competition your seeing. Is it not true that fighters permanently injure themselves in these fights at times, isnt it true that psychological traumas from losing sometimes effect them well into the future.

Would you be able to appreciate the skills needed for a knife fight...take some of the martial arts that DO still train with knives, and sticks, take the sport of Fencing for example.

I've already told you that Gladiators almost never died in fights, if they did it was by accident. Gladiators were occasionally ceremonially executed after the fights by their opponent, on command of whoever was the senior. even then...your only talking about an aveage of two Glads per card as extensive as a UFC bout...well didnt two UFC fighters get seriously hurt and need to be cleared before they return...The odds of seeing someone "stabbed to death" simply didnt happen in the way your thinking unless it was a battle reconstruction, in which case it wasnt the Gladiators dying...or if it was an accident during combat.

As for the loser...it was considered an honourable way to die. A somewhat Glorious End so to speak. It wasnt like it was forced upon most of them...sure some of them were slaves...but it was actually an occupation for your Roman Citizen...particularly the main events and the truely loved guys, they werent slaves...they did it by choice...and if they died they accepted their fate and their families considered it as noble as being killed on the battlefield.

The gladiatorial battles, werent even comprised mostly of that type of fight anyway...they would begin with demonstrations, a bit like the UFC sometimes put on open training for some of their fighters the day before the fights, where the population could just watch them...the cards were only about the size of a UFC card...and on average only two losing Gladiators were purposefully executed.

Geez...perhaps I am a Barbarian :unsure-1::ninja::laugh:

2) I guess at the end of the day. No its not. Or at the very least, its not desireable

He was awarded a win...he didnt actually take the win.

In this day and age, with Judges being as bad as they are...thats a dangerous thing to do. Imagine if they had given it to Hardy :laugh: Just for one moment...the only way to be absolutely positively 100percent undesputedly the winner...is to finish...preferably in an absolutely undeniable way...like...Shane Carwin for example.

Now granted...we cant have perfection all the time, everybody...well mostly everybody, has decisions on their records...but the aim IS to try and finish to win, its NOT to point score to win.

As for seeing the sport flourish...nevermind what critics like me say...what about the far bigger implications of a large insitution that thinks it IS the sport, will squash competition that could IMPROVE the sport...and sells out the the Saudis :laugh:

so you look down on anyone that wins by decision Dave...or just GSP ?:unsure-1:

and as far as Hardy getting the decision in that fight ?...not even you would have given it to him...you may be a hater when it comes to GSP but your not stupid.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 06:52 PM
2) I guess at the end of the day. No its not. Or at the very least, its not desireable

He was awarded a win...he didnt actually take the win.

In this day and age, with Judges being as bad as they are...thats a dangerous thing to do. Imagine if they had given it to Hardy :laugh: Just for one moment...the only way to be absolutely positively 100percent undesputedly the winner...is to finish...preferably in an absolutely undeniable way...like...Shane Carwin for example.

Now granted...we cant have perfection all the time, everybody...well mostly everybody, has decisions on their records...but the aim IS to try and finish to win, its NOT to point score to win.

As for seeing the sport flourish...nevermind what critics like me say...what about the far bigger implications of a large insitution that thinks it IS the sport, will squash competition that could IMPROVE the sport...and sells out the the Saudis :laugh:

That is the double standard that fighters have to deal with when it comes to fans who see it like you do. Fighters have such little room for error, and if they lose a few fights it can derail their entire career. So they try to fight smart and utilize a gameplan, but then they get criticized and called boring. It's basically a lose/lose situation when a fighter is on top of the mountain when it comes to the critics. There will always be a group who tries to exploit some argument and downgrade a fighter's performance. Fight fans are much too quick to disregard facts for "what-if's" and "what have you done for me lately" responses.

Sure, scoring a KO or submission is always ideal, but to put such a negative connotation over a fight going the distance is just absurd. Actually, if we really are seeing two guys who are the top of the game, they SHOULD be going the distance. What ever happened to love for defense? Instead, people start whining about not getting what they paid for and how they are not buying any more fights. It's easy for us to sit back and say GSP COULD have finished him or SHOULD have, but clearly Dan Hardy didn't think that way. There is no shame in a fight going the distance.

As for the business decisions of the UFC, that is a separate issue, but I agree that it has just as big if not much bigger implications on the sport of MMA. That doesn't mean that having the "hardcore" fans constantly trashing some of the biggest stars for ridiculous reasons helps at all. :wink:

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 06:53 PM
Jens Pulver should be ceremoniously executed then. Separate the wheat from the chaff and all that.

:angry: well he went out on a loss...did he not :huh:

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 07:00 PM
so you look down on anyone that wins by decision Dave...or just GSP ?:unsure-1:

and as far as Hardy getting the decision in that fight ?...not even you would have given it to him...you may be a hater when it comes to GSP but your not stupid.
I wouldnt have given hardy the decision...but Judges do sometimes make almost blind judgements!

"looking down on" is not quite accurate...If it is someone I like and they survive a decision I console them by saying at least the other guy couldnt finish them...If someone I like wins by decision...im not deeply dissapointed, but will admit I'm not as overjoyed as if they win...for me...personally...what I truely like is a good submission...a KO is fine...except that the guy who gets it in the head...he doesnt submit in the same way as someone who taps out...in essence, you cant help being put to sleep following a violent blow to the head...whereas...you have a choice wheather to tap or not dont you...I like to view the extremes of Dominance and Submission I guess...nothing is more personally violatory then choosing to go to sleep when choked out...that is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to a fighter in terms of being "dominated"

Its strangely beautiful to watch in a bizzare way, I dont know why, it just is, its the ultimate power discourse displayed in MMA being accutely aware of that in violence and combat...thats what I personally enjoy most I suppose.

Sorry if you think thats eversoslightly twisted :laugh:

flo
03-28-2010, 07:04 PM
:laugh:

I'm just pointing out something that is clearly obvious, but we tend to ignore it. Fight fans are quite fickle, and the guys at the top of the game are constantly battling silly criticisms regardless of how often or impressively they win. Obviously, fighters are not like sports teams, because fighters come and go, while teams are typically there for many years and establish a legacy and fanbase that spans generations. So, in the fight game, the buzz around the top fighters is driven as much, if not more, by the amount of criticism the fighter receives as their actual accomplishments.

We, as fight fans, chew them up and spit them out like no other sport.

Good analysis, JB.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 07:04 PM
That is the double standard that fighters have to deal with when it comes to fans who see it like you do. Fighters have such little room for error, and if they lose a few fights it can derail their entire career. So they try to fight smart and utilize a gameplan, but then they get criticized and called boring. It's basically a lose/lose situation when a fighter is on top of the mountain when it comes to the critics. There will always be a group who tries to exploit some argument and downgrade a fighter's performance. Fight fans are much too quick to disregard facts for "what-if's" and "what have you done for me lately" responses.

Sure, scoring a KO or submission is always ideal, but to put such a negative connotation over a fight going the distance is just absurd. Actually, if we really are seeing two guys who are the top of the game, they SHOULD be going the distance. What ever happened to love for defense? Instead, people start whining about not getting what they paid for and how they are not buying any more fights. It's easy for us to sit back and say GSP COULD have finished him or SHOULD have, but clearly Dan Hardy didn't think that way. There is no shame in a fight going the distance.

As for the business decisions of the UFC, that is a separate issue, but I agree that it has just as big if not much bigger implications on the sport of MMA. That doesn't mean that having the "hardcore" fans constantly trashing some of the biggest stars for ridiculous reasons helps at all. :wink:

Can I help it if I find him boring :huh: should I keep stum :huh: Trust me...the institution derails more fight careers then any Critic...infact...with critics...name one person whose career has been distroyed by them...coz I can name two whose Careers are supported by them no matter how many times they fail :ninja:

Not Guilty Your Honnour :wink:

flo
03-28-2010, 07:05 PM
I thought the GSP fight was exciting. I also think he could've broken Hardy's arm and chose not too. He had more room to go with the Kimura and didn't take it. Some might say he lacks the killer instinct but I think he just chose not to break a guy's arm because he didn't have to break it. He was going to win anyway.

Rousimer is a total A-hole though. He felt the tapping and the ref was pulling on him to release the hold. He kept cranking it anyway. He meant to destroy that knee. It was no accident.



Word on both points.

Blade
03-28-2010, 07:08 PM
I like to view the extremes of Dominance and Submission I guess...nothing is more personally violatory then choosing to go to sleep when choked out...that is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to a fighter in terms of being "dominated"

Its strangely beautiful to watch in a bizzare way, I dont know why, it just is, its the ultimate power discourse displayed in MMA being accutely aware of that in violence and combat...thats what I personally enjoy most I suppose.

Sorry if you think thats eversoslightly twisted :laugh:

I'd feel more dominated if I got Ko'd than if I tapped out or went to sleep, though I take your point about tapping.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 07:15 PM
That is the double standard that fighters have to deal with when it comes to fans who see it like you do. Fighters have such little room for error, and if they lose a few fights it can derail their entire career.

Sure, scoring a KO or submission is always ideal, but to put such a negative connotation over a fight going the distance is just absurd.

As for the business decisions of the UFC, that is a separate issue, but I agree that it has just as big if not much bigger implications on the sport of MMA. That doesn't mean that having the "hardcore" fans constantly trashing some of the biggest stars for ridiculous reasons helps at all. :wink:

What do people say when I complain about fighter pay?
If they don't like the pay, don't fight.
So, if fighters don't like the fact that this is the fight BUSINESS,
and they need to entertain the masses, then don't fight.

On your second point,
its not like GSP has gone to one decision,
Other than BJ, who just quit, GSP hasn't stopped a fighter in 4 fights.
Even with BJ, it went 4 rounds and it was the same type of GSP.

GSP likes being champion, and he likes winning,
so much so that he isn't willing to take any risks lately.
His choice to put wins over fans, not ours.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:18 PM
Can I help it if I find him boring :huh: should I keep stum :huh: Trust me...the institution derails more fight careers then any Critic...infact...with critics...name one person whose career has been distroyed by them...coz I can name two whose Careers are supported by them no matter how many times they fail :ninja:

Not Guilty Your Honnour :wink:

You can say whatever you like, that has long been established. I am doing the same thing, but in a different way by trying to get fight fans to think about what they are saying at times.

Critics most certainly do hurt fighters careers, but they also help them. It's a two way road in many respects, and sometimes negative criticism can actually drive a persons popularity. However, it doesn't justify what is basically frivolous criticism by those who are supposed to appreciate the entire sport and what comes with it.

Which brings me back full circle to my original point in all of this. In no other sport are athletes so criticized even in dominating victories. Yeah, people will point out one thing or another, but you never hear a football team come out and apologize to their fans for running the clock out at the end of a game when they are already winning by three touchdowns. I think if we truly respect what these guys are doing when they step in that cage or in the ring
then we should not see any shame in a fight going the distance.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 07:20 PM
Which brings me back full circle to my original point in all of this. In no other sport are athletes so criticized even in dominating victories. Yeah, people will point out one thing or another, but you never hear a football team come out and apologize to their fans for running the clock out at the end of a game when they are already winning by three touchdowns. I think if we truly respect what these guys are doing when they step in that cage or in the ring
then we should not see any shame in a fight going the distance.

Team sports don't = combat sports.

In widely accepted than in MMA its not that you win,
its who you beat, and how you beat them.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:21 PM
What do people say when I complain about fighter pay?
If they don't like the pay, don't fight.
So, if fighters don't like the fact that this is the fight BUSINESS,
and they need to entertain the masses, then don't fight.

On your second point,
its not like GSP has gone to one decision,
Other than BJ, who just quit, GSP hasn't stopped a fighter in 4 fights.
Even with BJ, it went 4 rounds and it was the same type of GSP.

GSP likes being champion, and he likes winning,
so much so that he isn't willing to take any risks lately.
His choice to put wins over fans, not ours.

Nice way to try and spin it, but the bottom line is that fight fans who say that are full of crap. They complain about not being entertained and then they buy the next fight. If you don't like it, quit buying. Or, even funnier is the fans who don't even buy the fight but still complain as if they did.

On your second point, I already addressed that much earlier. Look at his last 6 fights, he has finished 3 of them. That is 50%.....you make it sound like GSP owes you a KO or sub every single fight. That's your choice to be a meathead-fan, not his.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:26 PM
Team sports don't = combat sports.

In widely accepted than in MMA its not that you win,
its who you beat, and how you beat them.


Professional sports in the mainstream here in America all fall under one umbrella no matter how you try to spin it.

You are ignoring the real point I am making that the criticisms are often frivolous and rehashed versions of the same argument over and over again.

bj44
03-28-2010, 07:38 PM
1) Do you doubt the level of competition your seeing. Is it not true that fighters permanently injure themselves in these fights at times, isnt it true that psychological traumas from losing sometimes effect them well into the future.

Would you be able to appreciate the skills needed for a knife fight...take some of the martial arts that DO still train with knives, and sticks, take the sport of Fencing for example.

I've already told you that Gladiators almost never died in fights, if they did it was by accident. Gladiators were occasionally ceremonially executed after the fights by their opponent, on command of whoever was the senior. even then...your only talking about an aveage of two Glads per card as extensive as a UFC bout...well didnt two UFC fighters get seriously hurt and need to be cleared before they return...The odds of seeing someone "stabbed to death" simply didnt happen in the way your thinking unless it was a battle reconstruction, in which case it wasnt the Gladiators dying...or if it was an accident during combat.

As for the loser...it was considered an honourable way to die. A somewhat Glorious End so to speak. It wasnt like it was forced upon most of them...sure some of them were slaves...but it was actually an occupation for your Roman Citizen...particularly the main events and the truely loved guys, they werent slaves...they did it by choice...and if they died they accepted their fate and their families considered it as noble as being killed on the battlefield.

The gladiatorial battles, werent even comprised mostly of that type of fight anyway...they would begin with demonstrations, a bit like the UFC sometimes put on open training for some of their fighters the day before the fights, where the population could just watch them...the cards were only about the size of a UFC card...and on average only two losing Gladiators were purposefully executed.

Geez...perhaps I am a Barbarian :unsure-1::ninja::laugh:

2) I guess at the end of the day. No its not. Or at the very least, its not desireable

He was awarded a win...he didnt actually take the win.

In this day and age, with Judges being as bad as they are...thats a dangerous thing to do. Imagine if they had given it to Hardy :laugh: Just for one moment...the only way to be absolutely positively 100percent undesputedly the winner...is to finish...preferably in an absolutely undeniable way...like...Shane Carwin for example.

Now granted...we cant have perfection all the time, everybody...well mostly everybody, has decisions on their records...but the aim IS to try and finish to win, its NOT to point score to win.

As for seeing the sport flourish...nevermind what critics like me say...what about the far bigger implications of a large insitution that thinks it IS the sport, will squash competition that could IMPROVE the sport...and sells out the the Saudis :laugh:

your comparing a hw in carwin to a welterweight.... Of course a hw is more likely to finish a fight... Its like that in all combat sports.

bj44
03-28-2010, 07:39 PM
What do people say when I complain about fighter pay?
If they don't like the pay, don't fight.
So, if fighters don't like the fact that this is the fight BUSINESS,
and they need to entertain the masses, then don't fight.

On your second point,
its not like GSP has gone to one decision,
Other than BJ, who just quit, GSP hasn't stopped a fighter in 4 fights.
Even with BJ, it went 4 rounds and it was the same type of GSP.

GSP likes being champion, and he likes winning,
so much so that he isn't willing to take any risks lately.
His choice to put wins over fans, not ours.
he went for risky arm bars giving up top position twice

Chuck
03-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Which brings me back full circle to my original point in all of this. In no other sport are athletes so criticized even in dominating victories. Yeah, people will point out one thing or another, but you never hear a football team come out and apologize to their fans for running the clock out at the end of a game when they are already winning by three touchdowns. I think if we truly respect what these guys are doing when they step in that cage or in the ring
then we should not see any shame in a fight going the distance.

Excellent points. I think, and I will get flamed for this, that the only fans who criticize a fight like this are ignorant, haters or both. The double standard in stand up vs. ground is amazing. GSP dominated every aspect of the match and had 2 sub attempts that would have finished this fight 9/10 times. You can be 1 dimensional in MMA as long as you're a striker not a grappler. If a striker beats the hell out of a guy for 5 rounds standing and almost KO's him twice NOBODY would complain. If a grappler dominates an opponent for 5 rounds it's somehow viewed differently. I think GSP tried to end the fight on multiple occasions. Rather than giving credit to Hardy it's somehow a knock on GSP. As a GSP fan would I have liked to see him finish the fight? Hell yeah. Would I like to see him KO some folks? Definitely. But I would rather see a fighter I'm a fan of win in less than spectacular fashion than watch him lose for taking risks or abandoning his strength.

Team sports don't = combat sports.

In widely accepted than in MMA its not that you win,
its who you beat, and how you beat them.
I agree it's accepted... but do you think it's appropriate?

Chuck
03-28-2010, 07:46 PM
Gregory Helms� tweet, notably re-tweeted by Matt Hardy, regarding Frank Mir�s crushing UFC 111 knockout loss to Shane Carwin: �For all the Mir fans out there, I just got word that he was released from the hospital and his vaginal reconstruction was a success.�

I thought this was funny! :laugh:

J.B.
03-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Excellent points. I think, and I will get flamed for this, that the only fans who criticize a fight like this are ignorant, haters or both. The double standard in stand up vs. ground is amazing. GSP dominated every aspect of the match and had 2 sub attempts that would have finished this fight 9/10 times. You can be 1 dimensional in MMA as long as you're a striker not a grappler. If a striker beats the hell out of a guy for 5 rounds standing and almost KO's him twice NOBODY would complain. If a grappler dominates an opponent for 5 rounds it's somehow viewed differently. I think GSP tried to end the fight on multiple occasions. Rather than giving credit to Hardy it's somehow a knock on GSP. As a GSP fan would I have liked to see him finish the fight? Hell yeah. Would I like to see him KO some folks? Definitely. But I would rather see a fighter I'm a fan of win in less than spectacular fashion than watch him lose for taking risks or abandoning his strength.


I agree it's accepted... but do you think it's appropriate?

Exactly, it's just too bad a lot of fans don't see it that way. I think you are right about it being mostly haters, as opinions of fighters are typically subjective. If a person doesn't like a fighter, they seem to stop at nothing to try and discredit them.

que
03-28-2010, 07:59 PM
the only thing impressive in that fight was hardy's heart. GSP bored the s*** out of me last night. jeez, could he be any more predictable these days? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Chuck
03-28-2010, 08:05 PM
the only thing impressive in that fight was hardy's heart. GSP bored the s*** out of me last night. jeez, could he be any more predictable these days? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'll take a boring win for a fighter I'm a fan of over a spectacular loss any day.


But that's just me.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 08:22 PM
You can say whatever you like,
:laugh: not entirely true :laugh:

:ninja:

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 08:24 PM
I'd feel more dominated if I got Ko'd than if I tapped out or went to sleep, though I take your point about tapping.

well im talking about a fan perspective based on power discourse...it might be different or circumstantial for the actual fighter :)

F34R
03-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Look at his last 6 fights, he has finished 3 of them. That is 50%.....you make it sound like GSP owes you a KO or sub every single fight. That's your choice to be a meathead-fan, not his.
Let's do it a little differently.

Prior to becoming a champion GSP finished 11 out of 14 fights, or a 79% finishing rate.
Since becoming the champion he's only finished 3 out of 8 fights, or 38%.

Nope, still going downhill.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:36 PM
he went for risky arm bars giving up top position twice

So, in a 25 minute fight you have 2 examples of taking a risk?

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:37 PM
I agree it's accepted... but do you think it's appropriate?

200% appropriate.

This sport is about entertainment, period.
If the masses wanted to be grappling fans and not see guys takings risks and putting people away,
then BJJ would be doing PPV's every month, not MMA.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:39 PM
Nice way to try and spin it, but the bottom line is that fight fans who say that are full of crap. They complain about not being entertained and then they buy the next fight. If you don't like it, quit buying. Or, even funnier is the fans who don't even buy the fight but still complain as if they did.

On your second point, I already addressed that much earlier. Look at his last 6 fights, he has finished 3 of them. That is 50%.....you make it sound like GSP owes you a KO or sub every single fight. That's your choice to be a meathead-fan, not his.


Oh, I don't buy it lol.
I do not buy GSP PPV events, unless there are a lot of other interesting fights.
Don't think Zuffa doesn't know this, GSP's last 2 fights have been with Brock on the card,
and this one was with Mir / Carwin.
They know they need to stack the cards with GSP.

I am not meat headed,
I am a martial artist, I respect a fighter, a warrior, I do not respect a point fighter.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Let's do it a little differently.

Prior to becoming a champion GSP finished 11 out of 14 fights, or a 79% finishing rate.
Since becoming the champion he's only finished 3 out of 8 fights, or 38%.

Nope, still going downhill.

Who cares? He has still completely dominated everybody that has been put in front him. All of sudden he has more pressure on him, and he is still dominating, but he's going downhill? :rolleyes:

Only further evidence that fight fans have some of the most twisted logic there is.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Correction, the BJ PPV did not have Brock.

But the Fitch fight did.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:47 PM
Who cares? He has still completely dominated everybody that has been put in front him. All of sudden he has more pressure on him, and he is still dominating, but he's going downhill? :rolleyes:

Only further evidence that fight fans have some of the most twisted logic there is.

Well, if by dominating you mean = Controlled the fight but can't put anybody away.

Then yes, you're right, he is dominant.
GSP is fighting safer than he used to, its a fact,
you can hate it all you want, but people don't like 25 minute bore fests.

If GSP were TRULY dominant, he would put guys away,
are you really THAT much better than Hardy if you can't stop him?
No, you're not.
Basically, GSP is a better wrestler, and stronger,
but isn't miles ahead of everybody in his division like some other champions,
like BJ, for instance.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 08:49 PM
http://www.cagepotato.com/ufc-111-aftermath-press-conference-notes-bonuses-and-more
Another video of Dana saying he is unhappy,
the fans are unhappy,
and GSP himself said he was unhappy with is performance.

So, the bulk of people aren't happy with GSP,
but everybody is wrong, and JB is right.

Tyburn
03-28-2010, 08:49 PM
Who cares? He has still completely dominated everybody that has been put in front him. All of sudden he has more pressure on him, and he is still dominating, but he's going downhill? :rolleyes:

Only further evidence that fight fans have some of the most twisted logic there is.


All of a sudden he's a King...he's expected to perform even better :ninja:

stop using the word Twisted...it makes me feel...dirty :unsure-1:

:laugh:

J.B.
03-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Oh, I don't buy it lol.
I do not buy GSP PPV events, unless there are a lot of other interesting fights.
Don't think Zuffa doesn't know this, GSP's last 2 fights have been with Brock on the card,
and this one was with Mir / Carwin.
They know they need to stack the cards with GSP.

I am not meat headed,
I am a martial artist, I respect a fighter, a warrior, I do not respect a point fighter.

UFC has to stack all it's cards. Thats the nature of the business model they have created and how watered down the market is right now.

You wanna talk business in some threads, then you start talking like these men are super-human warriors who need to come out for blood to appease your interests. As soon as they lose a few fights, critics like you write these guys off. So, when they fight smart and use a strategy, then you say they are not a warrior. Absolutely ridiculous.

If you are a real martial artist, I can't understand how you could honestly disrespect the hard work and what these guys put on the line to get in there and entertain us and compete. Let me know when you decide to make your UFC debut or when you have a fight with GSP. I am willing to bet he could earn your respect really quick if you told him to his face that you thought he fights with no heart and he is boring. Analyzing what happened is one thing, but to say a guy who put on the performances that GSP has doesnt deserve respect should be a crime against MMA and all facets of sound logic.

I am the first one to admit that I have some very outspoken opinions, but some of the Monday morning quarterbacking that goes on after fights is unbelievable. I can honestly say I have consistently held the same opinions in regards to legacy and what makes a great fighter, regardless of weather I like the fighter I am talking about or not.

Chuck
03-28-2010, 09:03 PM
Let's do it a little differently.

Prior to becoming a champion GSP finished 11 out of 14 fights, or a 79% finishing rate.
Since becoming the champion he's only finished 3 out of 8 fights, or 38%.

Nope, still going downhill.

Do you think there's a chance that the level of competition he's faced as the Champion is greater than the level of competition he faced trying to get there? :Whistle:

J.B.
03-28-2010, 09:06 PM
http://www.cagepotato.com/ufc-111-aftermath-press-conference-notes-bonuses-and-more
Another video of Dana saying he is unhappy,
the fans are unhappy,
and GSP himself said he was unhappy with is performance.

So, the bulk of people aren't happy with GSP,
but everybody is wrong, and JB is right.

Dana just defended GSP's performance and said NOT EVERY FIGHT CAN BE PERFECT. Dana also says that UFC doesnt think less people will buy his fights.

Dana would love nothing more than to say that all the idiots criticizing GSP are just that, but he's a mouthpiece of the company, and his mouth has gotten him in trouble more than once.

I suppose GSP was just gonna come out and tell all the fans to screw off too, right? Isn't that what Anderson Silva did in so many words? I applaud him.

Chuck
03-28-2010, 09:11 PM
Well, if by dominating you mean = Controlled the fight but can't put anybody away.

Then yes, you're right, he is dominant.
GSP is fighting safer than he used to, its a fact,
you can hate it all you want, but people don't like 25 minute bore fests.

If GSP were TRULY dominant, he would put guys away,
are you really THAT much better than Hardy if you can't stop him?
No, you're not.
Basically, GSP is a better wrestler, and stronger,
but isn't miles ahead of everybody in his division like some other champions,
like BJ, for instance.

Well according to the results of their last fight he's definitely miles ahead of BJ. :wink:

If Hardy would have tapped to either of those submissions would your opinion of him finishing fights be different?

J.B.
03-28-2010, 09:13 PM
Well according to the results of their last fight he's definitely miles ahead of BJ. :wink:

If Hardy would have tapped to either of those submissions would your opinion of him finishing fights be different?

His opinion would still be the exact opposite of whatever I posted. :wink:

Buc Nasty
03-28-2010, 10:19 PM
That was a long read! :laugh:

Glad to see Hardy has won a few more fans after that, it was probably the best I could hope for! He may not have the skills of a champion but he showed he has the heart of one.

http://urdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Hardy-wrestles.gif

Buc Nasty
03-28-2010, 10:22 PM
I said I wasn't going to change my sig coz I love it but I think this is cool:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/justinyourmouth1/myspACEVERSION-4.jpg






I'm torn. Stick or twist peeps?

logrus
03-28-2010, 10:36 PM
Here is what I will say about this fight. GSP did beat Hardy, he took him down over and over again and had 2 great submission attempts. With that being said, those 2 submission attempts were the only exciting part of this fight.

the only thing impressive in that fight was hardy's heart. GSP bored the s*** out of me last night. jeez, could he be any more predictable these days? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Nice too see the two heavy hitters on these forums have agreed with me 110%.

Buc Nasty
03-28-2010, 10:41 PM
Nice too see the two heavy hitters on these forums have agreed with me 110%.

So have I.

logrus
03-28-2010, 10:44 PM
So have I.

Mad props to Buc, Mac, Atom, Ty, Fear, for all saying Gsp pretty much bored them to death as well.

<More mad props will be given as I back track through the posts. :)

bradwright
03-28-2010, 10:50 PM
Mad props to Buc, Mac, Atom, Ty, Fear, for all saying Gsp pretty much bored them to death as well.

<More mad props will be given as I back track through the posts. :)

:laugh:you really need to get a life.:laugh:

F34R
03-28-2010, 10:54 PM
Who cares? He has still completely dominated everybody that has been put in front him. All of sudden he has more pressure on him, and he is still dominating, but he's going downhill? :rolleyes:

Only further evidence that fight fans have some of the most twisted logic there is.
I care. I don't even care if he wins or not. I want exciting fights. I can't stand for someone to "fight not to lose". I'd rather see him lose while putting on a exciting fight, rather than the bore fests he's been putting on.

Do you think there's a chance that the level of competition he's faced as the Champion is greater than the level of competition he faced trying to get there? :Whistle:
I guess you can say that, but for him to put on such a dominant performance, yet, can't finish the fight... that kinda squashes that theory for me.

He's fighting NOT to lose and it's quite boring.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Well according to the results of their last fight he's definitely miles ahead of BJ. :wink:

If Hardy would have tapped to either of those submissions would your opinion of him finishing fights be different?

Going 20 minutes and still not doing any real damage is miles ahead?
O_0

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 11:04 PM
My fan take on things.
(as a fan, and a martial artist)

To me, I like fighters who lay it on the line,
and who give it every ounce they have.
Wandy for instance, has always been a top favorite fighter of mine.
He loses, but I admire his heart, and I feel like he really loves going to battle.
*shrug*

So it isn't just about win and lose.
BJ lost to GSP twice,
but I am still a bigger BJ fan, because I feel like BJ puts it on the line,
and really tries to destroy a guy.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 11:04 PM
I care. I don't even care if he wins or not. I want exciting fights. I can't stand for someone to "fight not to lose". I'd rather see him lose while putting on a exciting fight, rather than the bore fests he's been putting on.


It's easy to sit back and assume that somebody is "fighting not to lose", but unless GSP comes out and says that, then it just sounds like sour grapes to me. That's just a way to twist words to get back at the fighter who has so horribly wronged you, and clearly many others, by forcing you to witness a "bore-fest".

I am a fan of exciting fights too, and I realize thats what sells and what people love to talk about at the office, but I am excited to watch any fights because I consider myself a hardcore fan and I have been for 2 decades. If a fight doesn't end with a submission or KO, I don't feel cheated. I'm not a typical fan, and I understand that, but I find it hilarious that people don't even acknowledge the ridiculous double standards.

bradwright
03-28-2010, 11:05 PM
Going 20 minutes and still not doing any real damage is miles ahead?
O_0

if he didn't do any real damage why didn't BJ come out for the last round then ?

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 11:07 PM
if he didn't do any real damage why didn't BJ come out for the last round then ?

Because his corner knew he could mount no real offense.
*shrug*

bradwright
03-28-2010, 11:09 PM
Because his corner knew he could mount no real offense.
*shrug*

he got the crap beat out of him and he quit.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 11:09 PM
Because his corner knew he could mount no real offense.
*shrug*

Because he was beaten mentally and physically.

F34R
03-28-2010, 11:22 PM
It's easy to sit back and assume that somebody is "fighting not to lose", but unless GSP comes out and says that, then it just sounds like sour grapes to me. That's just a way to twist words to get back at the fighter who has so horribly wronged you, and clearly many others, by forcing you to witness a "bore-fest".

I am a fan of exciting fights too, and I realize thats what sells and what people love to talk about at the office, but I am excited to watch any fights because I consider myself a hardcore fan and I have been for 2 decades. If a fight doesn't end with a submission or KO, I don't feel cheated. I'm not a typical fan, and I understand that, but I find it hilarious that people don't even acknowledge the ridiculous double standards.

It didn't matter to me who won or lost that fight. I thought the fight was boring. I didn't say it had to end up with a KO or sub. There have been MANY MANY fights that were freakin' amazing that went to a decision.

The only problem with him not finishing fights of late is that he is completely dominating these guys, yet, is content with letting it go to a decision.

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 11:28 PM
Because he was beaten mentally and physically.

He was outmatched physically.

Certainly.
But IMO (unlike yours) you are not REALLY that dominant if you aren't putting guys away

atomdanger
03-28-2010, 11:29 PM
It didn't matter to me who won or lost that fight. I thought the fight was boring. I didn't say it had to end up with a KO or sub. There have been MANY MANY fights that were freakin' amazing that went to a decision.

The only problem with him not finishing fights of late is that he is completely dominating these guys, yet, is content with letting it go to a decision.

THIS

J.B.
03-28-2010, 11:33 PM
It didn't matter to me who won or lost that fight. I thought the fight was boring. I didn't say it had to end up with a KO or sub. There have been MANY MANY fights that were freakin' amazing that went to a decision.

The only problem with him not finishing fights of late is that he is completely dominating these guys, yet, is content with letting it go to a decision.

Is he REALLY content?

Hasn't some GSP fans and haters already hit this thread with quotes stating GSP is not happy with his performance?

Don't you think that all fighters WANT to end the fight? Sometimes, it just don't happen. If it happens more than a few times, or when a guy is getting older, then all of sudden "he's not a warrior".....:laugh:

logrus
03-28-2010, 11:33 PM
All you guys are bashing Penn, but he's dominating his division more then Gsp is. Five total wins, none of those going to a decision and 4 of those being title fights. Not only that but his fights are not boring or predictable he goes into the area your most comfortable with and beats you with it. Sherk wanted to trade and PEnn made him pay. Diego wanted to strike with it and Penn made him pay.

Not only that but Penn made an effort to jump in weight to take on Gsp. So what, he tried and failed, better then to not try at all and hide out in a weight class cause you know you can't handle the next division.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 11:35 PM
He was outmatched physically.

Certainly.
But IMO (unlike yours) you are not REALLY that dominant if you aren't putting guys away

Face it dude, BJ quit and that is domination.

I'm not a fan of either guy, because they have always been rivals of Matt in one way or another. However, I still give a fair opinion on the guys.

F34R
03-28-2010, 11:47 PM
Is he REALLY content?

Hasn't some GSP fans and haters already hit this thread with quotes stating GSP is not happy with his performance?

Don't you think that all fighters WANT to end the fight? Sometimes, it just don't happen. If it happens more than a few times, or when a guy is getting older, then all of sudden "he's not a warrior".....:laugh:

you should go back and watch the fight again. GSP spent more time holding hardy down than trying to do any damage, or finishing. That's a fact. If he wasn't happy with his performance, that's his own fault. That's the fight he fought. That's the fight he's been fighting with the majority of his opponents.

J.B.
03-28-2010, 11:57 PM
you should go back and watch the fight again. GSP spent more time holding hardy down than trying to do any damage, or finishing. That's a fact. If he wasn't happy with his performance, that's his own fault. That's the fight he fought. That's the fight he's been fighting with the majority of his opponents.

Really?

13 finishes and 8 decisions in his career and somehow the majority of his fights are boring?

You are assuming you know what was going through the mind of GSP and that he intended to just play it safe and get a decision. I call BS, no fighter DOESNT want to finish the fight. They just also have to be strategic about their approach and careful not to gas themselves out or get caught. If GSP would have lost, people would be crapping on him even worse.

F34R
03-29-2010, 12:06 AM
Really?

13 finishes and 8 decisions in his career and somehow the majority of his fights are boring?

You are assuming you know what was going through the mind of GSP and that he intended to just play it safe and get a decision. I call BS, no fighter DOESNT want to finish the fight. They just also have to be strategic about their approach and careful not to gas themselves out or get caught. If GSP would have lost, people would be crapping on him even worse.
When I say majority, I'm talking about SINCE he became champ. Playing it safe so as to not lose the belt. After the loss to Serra, I bet that that game play is going to be more cemented in his head. You can call bs all you want, the statistic is there. While he might WANT to finish fights, he doesn't seem to want to take the risk to do it. It's much easier for him to hold people down and ride out the win.

I'm not assuming what's going through his mind. I'm giving my opinion based on what I've seen out of him since he's become the champ.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 12:32 AM
When I say majority, I'm talking about SINCE he became champ. Playing it safe so as to not lose the belt. After the loss to Serra, I bet that that game play is going to be more cemented in his head. You can call bs all you want, the statistic is there. While he might WANT to finish fights, he doesn't seem to want to take the risk to do it. It's much easier for him to hold people down and ride out the win.

I'm not assuming what's going through his mind. I'm giving my opinion based on what I've seen out of him since he's become the champ.

Even if it was a clear cut case of GSP only playing it safe to keep the belt, which is not a sure fire guarantee like you may think, fighting smart to ensure victory is NOT less honorable in my opinion. This IS a sport, not a roman gladiator duel. There are rules, and it is organized the way it is for a reason, and being a technical wizard is as much a part of the game as being a brutal KO artist. To question fighters intentions or heart is all subjective, and I personally don't think he was just trying to play it safe.

I'm not saying you or anybody else don't have the right to think GSP is boring or whatever, this just kinda got started by me referencing some ongoing observations I have noticed over time with fight fans, myself included.

Tyburn
03-29-2010, 12:33 AM
http://urdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Hardy-wrestles.gif

:laugh: I love his sense of humour :laugh:

Tyburn
03-29-2010, 12:38 AM
Even if it was a clear cut case of GSP only playing it safe to keep the belt, which is not a sure fire guarantee like you may think, fighting smart to ensure victory is NOT less honorable in my opinion. This IS a sport, not a roman gladiator duel. There are rules, and it is organized the way it is for a reason, and being a technical wizard is as much a part of the game as being a brutal KO artist. To question fighters intentions or heart is all subjective, and I personally don't think he was just trying to play it safe.

I'm not saying you or anybody else don't have the right to think GSP is boring or whatever, this just kinda got started by me referencing some ongoing observations I have noticed over time with fight fans, myself included.

I believe, the way you can most honour your opponent is to train your absolute hardest, and to perform to the best of your ability...this means if you have the ability to finish, you should...and I told that to several of the fighters that I liked when they were training for Jens and basically kept saying that they really loved him...I said that if they wanted to show that, then they should work as hard as they can and fight their hardest...noone wants hand-outs do they :ninja:

You go in, and you go in to kill them, thats what you have to do, they would expect nothing less, and would be shamed if you failed to do them that justice. If that means that you win, then so be it because you have still truely honoured them, and they're defeat is still as glorious because you didnt hold back....sorry was that another locker speech :unsure-1: perhaps i've missed my calling :laugh:

F34R
03-29-2010, 12:40 AM
Even if it was a clear cut case of GSP only playing it safe to keep the belt, which is not a sure fire guarantee like you may think, fighting smart to ensure victory is NOT less honorable in my opinion. This IS a sport, not a roman gladiator duel. There are rules, and it is organized the way it is for a reason, and being a technical wizard is as much a part of the game as being a brutal KO artist. To question fighters intentions or heart is all subjective, and I personally don't think he was just trying to play it safe.

I'm not saying you or anybody else don't have the right to think GSP is boring or whatever, this just kinda got started by me referencing some ongoing observations I have noticed over time with fight fans, myself included.

I never said anything about his honor. I said he's boring since he's been champ. The rules haven't changed since he was putting guys away. I don't see how that would be an issue now.

I don't see how you don't see it. I mean, the entire first round, he was on top, barely did anything in the way of posturing to GNP. He basically scored points by going from guard, half guard, side control, mount, back. Out of all those dominant positions, he attempted a single arm bar, which he could not finish. That same thing continued for the next four rounds. That is playing it safe.

que
03-29-2010, 12:52 AM
I'll take a boring win for a fighter I'm a fan of over a spectacular loss any day.


But that's just me.

me too, chuck :)

F34R
03-29-2010, 12:54 AM
Pff.t Defnitely would prefer someone to win, but I certainly prefer them to actually put on a show. Not a ground hug clinic.

que
03-29-2010, 12:58 AM
:cool:Pff.t Defnitely would prefer someone to win, but I certainly prefer them to actually put on a show. Not a ground hug clinic.

well hey, at least chuck admitted it was a boring performance :)

billwilliams70
03-29-2010, 01:16 AM
yeah, have you ever heard matt saying he wanted to kill someone in the cage? swear his head off in the cage after winning a fight? talk about ripping off limbs? ...
Nope, never heard Matt say something like that.....with or without those words, you can't say that aren't people out there that think Matt is arrogant. I'm not saying that he is.....to the best of my knowledge, he's not. He's a class act and a good Christian.

Mir has ALWAYS rubbed me wrong.....I just don't care for the guy and I never have. I hope he seriously does get another shot at Brock Lesnar just so I can see him get beat again.

Later.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 01:19 AM
I never said anything about his honor. I said he's boring since he's been champ. The rules haven't changed since he was putting guys away. I don't see how that would be an issue now.

I don't see how you don't see it. I mean, the entire first round, he was on top, barely did anything in the way of posturing to GNP. He basically scored points by going from guard, half guard, side control, mount, back. Out of all those dominant positions, he attempted a single arm bar, which he could not finish. That same thing continued for the next four rounds. That is playing it safe.

You said you don't like fighters who fight safe, or "fight not to lose". When you couple that together with your opinion that GSP has been fighting safe since becoming the champ, and it's easy to see why somebody would think you are suggesting that his wins have been less than honorable.

Guys don't go forward in this sport by racking up L's because the fans don't like their gameplan. The critics will get over this topic and move on to the next one shortly, and even if they don't, they will all tune in next time GSP fights, and thats all that really matters in terms of preserving the popularity of the sport.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 01:42 AM
I believe, the way you can most honour your opponent is to train your absolute hardest, and to perform to the best of your ability...this means if you have the ability to finish, you should...and I told that to several of the fighters that I liked when they were training for Jens and basically kept saying that they really loved him...I said that if they wanted to show that, then they should work as hard as they can and fight their hardest...noone wants hand-outs do they :ninja:

You go in, and you go in to kill them, thats what you have to do, they would expect nothing less, and would be shamed if you failed to do them that justice. If that means that you win, then so be it because you have still truely honoured them, and they're defeat is still as glorious because you didnt hold back....sorry was that another locker speech :unsure-1: perhaps i've missed my calling :laugh:

Hindsight is always 20/20, and nobody in this world is perfect. Just because a fighter's performance in the ring doesn't meet up to certain expectations from fans, or even to themselves at times, it does not definitely mean they failed to train and fight to the best of their abilities.

I understand the whole mentality you are trying to convey, and yes you would make an excellent speech-writer for head-coaches. Still, you gotta remember, just like much of the fighter's mentality does revolve around that sense of competition and a "warrior's spirit", there is also many other real world elements that make this a mental game as well as a business. It takes all of those elements to deliver the product we all love enough to sit here and argue about this much. What some people call boring, other people call smart. Like it or not, it's all a part of the game.

logrus
03-29-2010, 01:42 AM
You said you don't like fighters who fight safe, or "fight not to lose". When you couple that together with your opinion that GSP has been fighting safe since becoming the champ, and it's easy to see why somebody would think you are suggesting that his wins have been less than honorable.

Guys don't go forward in this sport by racking up L's because the fans don't like their gameplan. The critics will get over this topic and move on to the next one shortly, and even if they don't, they will all tune in next time GSP fights, and thats all that really matters in terms of preserving the popularity of the sport.

The only way people will tune in for a Gsp fight is if the other fights are worth the time. UFC 100 was a stacked card and luckily Gsp was on it. This card wasnt stacked, but it had a second fight a ton of people were interested in.

I wont buy a Gsp card if it doesnt have other fights worth my time.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 01:44 AM
The only way people will tune in for a Gsp fight is if the other fights are worth the time. UFC 100 was a stacked card and luckily Gsp was on it. This card wasnt stacked, but it had a second fight a ton of people were interested in.

I wont buy a Gsp card if it doesnt have other fights worth my time.

Well, they are past due to give GSP another marquee fight anyway, so I bet his next fight draws good either way. The guy is a star now, and people will watch him fight.

F34R
03-29-2010, 01:53 AM
Dont confuse my words. I didn't say I don't like fighters that fight safe. I said I dont like it when a fighter does that. It's a case by case basis. I think Matt did it in the Lytle fight, which I didn't like that fight too much. That doesn't mean I don't like Matt anymore. It means I was disappointed on that night.

Let's not try and make this out to be about hating certain fighters. I do have my favorites, but I absolutely do NOT hate any of them that aren't my favs.

I don't associate a fighters wins or losses with their honor. Their honor is, for me, related to how they treat others, sportsmanship before and after a fight, etc. I absolutely haven't ever questioned a fighters honor. I might have done that about Brock once though lol.

F34R
03-29-2010, 01:53 AM
Dont confuse my words. I didn't say I don't like fighters that fight safe. I said I dont like it when a fighter does that. It's a case by case basis. I think Matt did it in the Lytle fight, which I didn't like that fight too much. That doesn't mean I don't like Matt anymore. It means I was disappointed on that night.

Let's not try and make this out to be about hating certain fighters. I do have my favorites, but I absolutely do NOT hate any of them that aren't my favs.

I don't associate a fighters wins or losses with their honor. Their honor is, for me, related to how they treat others, sportsmanship before and after a fight, etc. I absolutely haven't ever questioned a fighters honor. I might have done that about Brock once though lol.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 02:12 AM
Dont confuse my words. I didn't say I don't like fighters that fight safe. I said I dont like it when a fighter does that. It's a case by case basis. I think Matt did it in the Lytle fight, which I didn't like that fight too much. That doesn't mean I don't like Matt anymore. It means I was disappointed on that night.

Let's not try and make this out to be about hating certain fighters. I do have my favorites, but I absolutely do NOT hate any of them that aren't my favs.

I don't associate a fighters wins or losses with their honor. Their honor is, for me, related to how they treat others, sportsmanship before and after a fight, etc. I absolutely haven't ever questioned a fighters honor. I might have done that about Brock once though lol.

I understand what you are saying completely, and when I used the term "honorable" I meant in reference to the way they won the fight. I agree with you about not associating their wins and losses to their honor as a person, so I apologize for poor choice of words.

I will admit that just like anybody I have my favorites, and I too don't "hate" the rivals of my favorite fighters. There are some that I really don't like because of things that they have said or done, but when it comes to discussing their accomplishments in the sport I will separate the two from each other and give credit where credit is due.

Maldonado136
03-29-2010, 02:54 AM
The only way people will tune in for a Gsp fight is if the other fights are worth the time. UFC 100 was a stacked card and luckily Gsp was on it. This card wasnt stacked, but it had a second fight a ton of people were interested in.

I wont buy a Gsp card if it doesnt have other fights worth my time.

um actually a lot of people go to see cards because gsp is on it. youre opinion isnt everyone elses opinion.

logrus
03-29-2010, 03:18 AM
um actually a lot of people go to see cards because gsp is on it. youre opinion isnt everyone elses opinion.

Nope but it is others opinion as well. There was already another poster who said they wouldn't buy a Gsp fight unless it was stacked. I am willing to bet others feel the same way considering his last 2 fights were carbon copies of a man hugging another man on the ground. Actually I take that back other forums posting say similar things as well.

I know all bout the Gsp fans nowadays, there fighters style is godly, and everyone else gets castrated. Look at how they reacted to Finch last nite who won by similar fashion. Look at how they boo'ed Brocks ground game vs Mir, and how they cheered Gsps 25 mins of hugging.

Once again, personally I wont order a fight with Gsp headlining unless the card has other fighters I am interested in seeing. My buddy who I watched the fights with last night said the same thing.

I am willing to bet this fight turned a few people off of the Gsp bandwagon.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 03:42 AM
Nope but it is others opinion as well. There was already another poster who said they wouldn't buy a Gsp fight unless it was stacked. I am willing to bet others feel the same way considering his last 2 fights were carbon copies of a man hugging another man on the ground. Actually I take that back other forums posting say similar things as well.

I know all bout the Gsp fans nowadays, there fighters style is godly, and everyone else gets castrated. Look at how they reacted to Finch last nite who won by similar fashion. Look at how they boo'ed Brocks ground game vs Mir, and how they cheered Gsps 25 mins of hugging.

Once again, personally I wont order a fight with Gsp headlining unless the card has other fighters I am interested in seeing. My buddy who I watched the fights with last night said the same thing.

I am willing to bet this fight turned a few people off of the Gsp bandwagon.

For the record, I am against the booing of Brock and the only UFC fight I saw last night was GSP vs Hardy because I was watching Arthur Abraham vs Andre Dirrell .

However, I think it is fair to mention that I know of some Boxing elitists who actually said they enjoyed the GSP fight last night, and these are people who rarely watch any MMA. Conversely, there were others in the same room who said the exact opposite and called GSP boring.

Either way, we are talking about him. He's got gatorade commercials, and he keeps winning. Fans will keep buying without a doubt.

Maldonado136
03-29-2010, 03:48 AM
Nope but it is others opinion as well. There was already another poster who said they wouldn't buy a Gsp fight unless it was stacked. I am willing to bet others feel the same way considering his last 2 fights were carbon copies of a man hugging another man on the ground. Actually I take that back other forums posting say similar things as well.

I know all bout the Gsp fans nowadays, there fighters style is godly, and everyone else gets castrated. Look at how they reacted to Finch last nite who won by similar fashion. Look at how they boo'ed Brocks ground game vs Mir, and how they cheered Gsps 25 mins of hugging.

Once again, personally I wont order a fight with Gsp headlining unless the card has other fighters I am interested in seeing. My buddy who I watched the fights with last night said the same thing.

I am willing to bet this fight turned a few people off of the Gsp bandwagon.

ok thats cool and there are others who think the opposite so there you go. this is like when Dave said that GSP's name is tarnished because of the BJ fight when really only BJ fanboys and GSP haters are the only ones who really think his name is tarnished. they are in the minority as are the people who wont order a ppv because gsp is headlining it.

atomdanger
03-29-2010, 03:48 AM
Face it dude, BJ quit and that is domination.

I'm not a fan of either guy, because they have always been rivals of Matt in one way or another. However, I still give a fair opinion on the guys.

I am not saying GSP didn't dominate,
but I am saying GSP isn't miles ahead of BJ.

If he was, he would have been able to TKO or submit him.

If you're light years ahead of somebody you stop them.
(minus some extenuating circumstances)

And to me that is sad considering how much larger GSP is than BJ,
still can't put him away with a 20 - 30lb weight advantage.

atomdanger
03-29-2010, 03:49 AM
I never said anything about his honor. I said he's boring since he's been champ. The rules haven't changed since he was putting guys away. I don't see how that would be an issue now.

I don't see how you don't see it. I mean, the entire first round, he was on top, barely did anything in the way of posturing to GNP. He basically scored points by going from guard, half guard, side control, mount, back. Out of all those dominant positions, he attempted a single arm bar, which he could not finish. That same thing continued for the next four rounds. That is playing it safe.

Exactly,
other than being a complete GSP fanatic I cannot see how this was an exciting fight.

Maldonado136
03-29-2010, 03:50 AM
here is the fightmetric. for entertainment purposes people!

http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/GSP-Hardy.html

logrus
03-29-2010, 03:51 AM
For the record, I am against the booing of Brock and the only UFC fight I saw last night was GSP vs Hardy because I was watching Arthur Abraham vs Andre Dirrell .

However, I think it is fair to mention that I know of some Boxing elitists who actually said they enjoyed the GSP fight last night, and these are people who rarely watch any MMA. Conversely, there were others in the same room who said the exact opposite and called GSP boring.

Either way, we are talking about him. He's got gatorade commercials, and he keeps winning. Fans will keep buying without a doubt.

Boy Abrah really screwed the ending to that fight up didn't he lol

Fans of Gsp will buy the cards no doubt. I think its the other people who are always on the fence each PPV that will most likely pass on it. ESpecaiily if the other figths don't justify the purchase.

bradwright
03-29-2010, 03:57 AM
I am not saying GSP didn't dominate,
but I am saying GSP isn't miles ahead of BJ.

If he was, he would have been able to TKO or submit him.

If you're light years ahead of somebody you stop them.
(minus some extenuating circumstances)

And to me that is sad considering how much larger GSP is than BJ,
still can't put him away with a 20 - 30lb weight advantage.

i think your math needs some work....GSP walked around at 185 when he fought BJ last time...they both made weight at 170 and the most GSP would have gained back by fight time would be 8 to 10 pounds...so at best he was 10 pounds heavier then BJ when they stepped into the octagon....but unless BJ is a complete idiot he knew he would be giving up close to ten pounds when they fought...so if that was a problem why did he ask for the fight then ?...or are you trying to say BJ really is an idiot ?:unsure-1:

oh yeah BTW....GSP did stop BJ or there would have been a 5th round.

J.B.
03-29-2010, 04:01 AM
I am not saying GSP didn't dominate,
but I am saying GSP isn't miles ahead of BJ.

If he was, he would have been able to TKO or submit him.

If you're light years ahead of somebody you stop them.
(minus some extenuating circumstances)

And to me that is sad considering how much larger GSP is than BJ,
still can't put him away with a 20 - 30lb weight advantage.

I will give you that, because I never actually used the term "light years". That was Chuck.

Still, you can't take anything away from GSP for the way he beat BJ in the second fight. The first fight was close, but the second fight was domination by GSP, and BJ's corner stopped the fight because they were just delaying the inevitable. If there were even 10 more seconds on that clock, BJ would have been KO'd. I'm not saying BJ is a scrub by any means, but neither is GSP, and he definitely had the better of BJ on that night without question.

atomdanger
03-29-2010, 07:11 AM
i think your math needs some work....GSP walked around at 185 when he fought BJ last time...they both made weight at 170 and the most GSP would have gained back by fight time would be 8 to 10 pounds...so at best he was 10 pounds heavier then BJ when they stepped into the octagon....but unless BJ is a complete idiot he knew he would be giving up close to ten pounds when they fought...so if that was a problem why did he ask for the fight then ?...or are you trying to say BJ really is an idiot ?:unsure-1:

oh yeah BTW....GSP did stop BJ or there would have been a 5th round.

According to WHO GSP walked about 185 last time?
GSP comes down from 200 easily.

BJ is not an idiot, he likes to challenge himself, thats why he likes to move up.
He mangles guys in his division and wants to move up and challenge himself,
you know, stuff a real champion does.

County Mike
03-29-2010, 11:11 AM
According to WHO GSP walked about 185 last time?
GSP comes down from 200 easily.

BJ is not an idiot, he likes to challenge himself, thats why he likes to move up.
He mangles guys in his division and wants to move up and challenge himself,
you know, stuff a real champion does.

According to GSP, he used to weigh 185 between fights and recently, he's added muscle to weigh 195 between fights. He has never claimed to cut down from 200.

County Mike
03-29-2010, 11:18 AM
I thought it was a good fight. GSP's first priority (as they teach you in BJJ) is to control your opponent. Obviously, Hardy was more difficult to control than they expected. Once you have control, you can then start to go for submissions or strikes. GSP had to work almost the entire fight just to control Hardy. Hardy was more flexible, slippery, etc. than I thought he would be.

GSP fought SMART and did go for several submissions. I didn't think the fight was boring at all. I do give Hardy more credit now for being a tough/flexible guy even if his offensive skills are limited to the striking.

rockdawg21
03-29-2010, 11:51 AM
Holy cow, Carwin is a beast...Dominated Mir...Lesnar better watch out because Carwin possesses that strength and athleticism as well

Pellegrino looked amazing as well
No disrespect to Carwin because I'd say he was going to get the KO anyways after those uppercuts, but I counted 6 punches directly to the back of the head and Mirgliotta didn't do anything. There was probably more than that but the camera angle had Mirgliotta in the way.

CAMPO
03-29-2010, 12:56 PM
Hiiiiiii!! How is everyone? :)

I totally enjoyed the fights! Went down to Boca with 4 of my best girlfriends & went to Bru's Room (bar/restaurant) - it was soooo packed! I'd never been to a bar to watch & it was a great time & worth it -- everyone was sooo pumped! :punch:
(could have done without the cigg smokers blowing right towards our table tho....oh well!)

NOT impressed with Mir...geesh...thought he'd last a tad longer...eh, whatever!

GSP is/was exciting to watch - I thought Hardy did a good job all 5 rounds, ESPECIALLY getting out of those arm bars....I was worried GSP was gonna rip his arm off - looked painful. Glad it went all 5 rounds too, made for an eventfull evening!

Cheers! :)

rearnakedchoke
03-29-2010, 01:18 PM
No disrespect to Carwin because I'd say he was going to get the KO anyways after those uppercuts, but I counted 6 punches directly to the back of the head and Mirgliotta didn't do anything. There was probably more than that but the camera angle had Mirgliotta in the way.

there has got to be a rule change about that .. if you turtle and cover the sides of your face the fight should be stopped ... as your aren't really defending yourself ... the only real thing the guy on top can do is punch the hands, wait or go for a sub .. takes away his advantage ...

rearnakedchoke
03-29-2010, 01:19 PM
Hiiiiiii!! How is everyone? :)

I totally enjoyed the fights! Went down to Boca with 4 of my best girlfriends & went to Bru's Room (bar/restaurant) - it was soooo packed! I'd never been to a bar to watch & it was a great time & worth it -- everyone was sooo pumped! :punch:
(could have done without the cigg smokers blowing right towards our table tho....oh well!)

NOT impressed with Mir...geesh...thought he'd last a tad longer...eh, whatever!

GSP is/was exciting to watch - I thought Hardy did a good job all 5 rounds, ESPECIALLY getting out of those arm bars....I was worried GSP was gonna rip his arm off - looked painful. Glad it went all 5 rounds too, made for an eventfull evening!

Cheers! :)

most are doing well i assume .. but the gsp haters and the gsp fans can't agree on whether gsp was boring or not ...

Spiritwalker
03-29-2010, 01:20 PM
I thought it was a good fight. GSP's first priority (as they teach you in BJJ) is to control your opponent. Obviously, Hardy was more difficult to control than they expected. Once you have control, you can then start to go for submissions or strikes. GSP had to work almost the entire fight just to control Hardy. Hardy was more flexible, slippery, etc. than I thought he would be.

GSP fought SMART and did go for several submissions. I didn't think the fight was boring at all. I do give Hardy more credit now for being a tough/flexible guy even if his offensive skills are limited to the striking.

Nice Post!!!!!!

I 2nd this!

F34R
03-29-2010, 02:24 PM
there has got to be a rule change about that .. if you turtle and cover the sides of your face the fight should be stopped ... as your aren't really defending yourself ... the only real thing the guy on top can do is punch the hands, wait or go for a sub .. takes away his advantage ...

OR... punch/knee to the body to open them up.

Josh
03-29-2010, 04:23 PM
Here are my two cents. The thing that bugs me about GSP is not that he does not finish people. It's that he has the ability to outstrike probably almost every WW and just just takes them down. I prefer to see a ground fight but it's annoying when a guy that can crush a guy on the feet takes him down. GSP has been in my top three favs since his first fight in the UFC (i have since watched some of his pre-UFC fights) because of his aggressive well rounded abilities. On of my favorite things about BJ is that he can ( and DOES) put people away on the feet or on the ground. George has the ability too but doesn't. His nickname is Rush for a reason. He used to come in and hunt and destroy. Now he plays it safe. That's lame.

bj44
03-29-2010, 07:40 PM
Here are my two cents. The thing that bugs me about GSP is not that he does not finish people. It's that he has the ability to outstrike probably almost every WW and just just takes them down. I prefer to see a ground fight but it's annoying when a guy that can crush a guy on the feet takes him down. GSP has been in my top three favs since his first fight in the UFC (i have since watched some of his pre-UFC fights) because of his aggressive well rounded abilities. On of my favorite things about BJ is that he can ( and DOES) put people away on the feet or on the ground. George has the ability too but doesn't. His nickname is Rush for a reason. He used to come in and hunt and destroy. Now he plays it safe. That's lame.

agreed GSP has some of the most underatted striking in mma because he refuses to show it..

Tyburn
03-29-2010, 07:41 PM
agreed GSP has some of the most underatted striking in mma because he refuses to show it..

why is that do you think :huh:

bj44
03-29-2010, 08:04 PM
why is that do you think :huh:

His standup is probably top 3-5 at ww but his wrestling and athleticism is number one by a large margin!!!! Path of least resitence.. Its alot easier to make a mistake standing up them in someones guard when you are as athletic as he is. Also while he doesnt have a "weak chin" he cant take a shot like say bj penn for example.. GSP is a very "smart" fighter.. Some people find it boring

Miss Foxy
03-29-2010, 08:23 PM
Here are my two cents. The thing that bugs me about GSP is not that he does not finish people. It's that he has the ability to outstrike probably almost every WW and just just takes them down. I prefer to see a ground fight but it's annoying when a guy that can crush a guy on the feet takes him down. GSP has been in my top three favs since his first fight in the UFC (i have since watched some of his pre-UFC fights) because of his aggressive well rounded abilities. On of my favorite things about BJ is that he can ( and DOES) put people away on the feet or on the ground. George has the ability too but doesn't. His nickname is Rush for a reason. He used to come in and hunt and destroy. Now he plays it safe. That's lame.
Very true indeed!!Now you know what your talking about!!:happydancing:

rockdawg21
03-29-2010, 10:10 PM
there has got to be a rule change about that .. if you turtle and cover the sides of your face the fight should be stopped ... as your aren't really defending yourself ... the only real thing the guy on top can do is punch the hands, wait or go for a sub .. takes away his advantage ...
I agree, Mir was finished anyways, but rules are rules. Not Carwin's fault, but had Mir been given an opportunity to recover the way he was given the opportunity the first time he fought Brock, it might have had a different outcome.

rockdawg21
03-29-2010, 10:12 PM
Here are my two cents. The thing that bugs me about GSP is not that he does not finish people. It's that he has the ability to outstrike probably almost every WW and just just takes them down. I prefer to see a ground fight but it's annoying when a guy that can crush a guy on the feet takes him down. GSP has been in my top three favs since his first fight in the UFC (i have since watched some of his pre-UFC fights) because of his aggressive well rounded abilities. On of my favorite things about BJ is that he can ( and DOES) put people away on the feet or on the ground. George has the ability too but doesn't. His nickname is Rush for a reason. He used to come in and hunt and destroy. Now he plays it safe. That's lame.
Yeah, I like GSP, but if he wants to surpass the legacy set by Hughes, he needs to start finishing fights. That was the excitement of Hughes wasn't completely dominating guys, it was the fact that he would get into trouble, come back from behind, and finish the fight! :punch:

Tyburn
03-29-2010, 10:30 PM
well for what its worth, here is my recap video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU4TCVMi2aI

J.B.
03-29-2010, 10:35 PM
I thought it was a good fight. GSP's first priority (as they teach you in BJJ) is to control your opponent. Obviously, Hardy was more difficult to control than they expected. Once you have control, you can then start to go for submissions or strikes. GSP had to work almost the entire fight just to control Hardy. Hardy was more flexible, slippery, etc. than I thought he would be.

GSP fought SMART and did go for several submissions. I didn't think the fight was boring at all. I do give Hardy more credit now for being a tough/flexible guy even if his offensive skills are limited to the striking.

Agreed.

Fighting smart might not be the most exciting thing to some, but I think if you asked anybody if they would rather be a smart winner or a dumb loser, you know what the answer would be. :laugh: