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View Full Version : At least 12 dead, 50 injured in shooting at Colorado movie theater, police say


VCURamFan
07-20-2012, 12:47 PM
:cry:


URGENT: At least 12 people have been killed and up to 50 injured after a mass shooting at a showing of "The Dark Knight Rises" at a suburban Denver movie theater, police say.

The suspect, identified by federal law enforcement officials as James Holmes, 24, is in police custody. KUSA reports that Holmes kicked down an emergency door at the theater, threw in some type of a smoke bomb and began shooting when moviegoers started to run.

Witnesses say they heard a series of explosions and up to 20 gunshots after the scene grew chaotic. About 100 witnesses were taken to a local high school to be questioned by police.

Police, ambulances and emergency crews swarmed on the Aurora, Colo., theater after frantic 911 calls around 12:30 a.m. local time, officials said.
Holmes reportedly fired shots inside the theater and fled to the parking lot and was confronted by police already at the theater for crowd control.

Holmes wore a bulletproof vest, police said, and was carrying a rifle and two handguns. The handguns may have been placed in the theater before the shooting.

FBI spokesman Jason Pack said there's no indication in the investigation so far of any connection to terrorism.

President Obama said he is "shocked and saddened" by the mass shooting and urged the nation to "come together as one American family." He said his administration will do everything it can to support the people of Aurora, Colo. The White House says Obama, who was in Florida at the time of the shooting, was informed of the shooting by Homeland Security Advisor John Brennan.

James Cameron, who was in an adjacent theater, said he hear commotion and screaming. People seated around him began coughing and having difficulty breathing.

"By the sound of it, it sounds like there could have been three or four guys shooting," he said.

Audra Mincey, a spokeswoman for the Swedish Medical Center, told Fox News there are two patients in critical condition.
Mincey said the hospital set up its incident command center and mobilized personnel.

Earlier reports said there may have been a second shooter, but police believe only one shooter was involved, KDVR tells Fox News.

Police Chief Dan Oates said there's no evidence of any other attackers. There was also no immediate word of any motive.

Holmes spoke of "possible explosives in his residence. We are dealing with that potential threat," Oates said.

Bejamin Fernandez, 30, told the Denver Post that he heard a series of explosions. He said that people ran from the theater and there were gunshots as police shouted "get down!"

Fernandez said he saw people falling, including one young girl.

Jordan told the paper that one girl was struck in cheek, others in stomach including a girl who looked to be around 9-years-old.
Jordan said it sounded like firecrackers until someone ran into Theater 8 yelling "they're shooting out here!"

Hayden Miller told KUSA-TV that he heard several shots.

"Like little explosions going on and shortly after that we heard people screaming," he told the station.

Hayden said at first he thought it was part of a louder movie next door. But then he saw "people hunched over leaving theater."
It was the worst mass shooting in the U.S. since the 2007 shooting on the Virginia Tech campus.

Some moviegoers said they thought the attack was part of the show. Then they saw a silhouette of a person in the smoke at the front of the theater, pointing a gun at the crowd.

"I told my friend, `We've got to get out of here,' but then he shot people trying to go out the exits," Jennifer Seeger told NBC's "Today." She the shooter made his way up the aisle, shooting as he went, saying nothing.

The youngest victim reported was a 6-year-old being treated at Children's Hospital Colorado, where a total of six victims were taken. Their condition wasn't known.

Two people in critical condition were rushed to nearby Swedish Medical Center, spokeswoman Nicole Williams said.

Aurora is on Denver's east side and is Colorado's third-largest city with 327,000 residents. It is home to a large Defense Department satellite intelligence operation at Buckley Air Force Base, as well as The Children's Hospital, the University of Colorado Hospital and a future Veterans Affairs hospital.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/20/several-reportedly-dead-injured-after-shooting-at-colorado-movie-theater/#ixzz21ANtjWPv

Bonnie
07-20-2012, 02:10 PM
I got up really early this morning and saw this first thing. Just terrible! It's hard enough to hear about adults being shot, but to hear about little babies and children being shot, just awful. :cry: I will never comprehend the mind that can do these things.

Just as an aside, I saw the other day where the Fort Hood killer is still getting paid, I believe they said $6,000/mo., while his victims struggle to pay their medical bills. Talk about messed up!

rearnakedchoke
07-20-2012, 02:22 PM
sad stuff .. hopefully the injured pull through ...

MattHughesRocks
07-20-2012, 07:47 PM
How horrible. What an asshole.

Tyburn
07-20-2012, 07:53 PM
But Why did he do it...I mean it seems really rather odd to massicre people at a cinema of all places :blink:

Bonnie
07-21-2012, 12:23 AM
But Why did he do it...I mean it seems really rather odd to massicre people at a cinema of all places :blink:

Actually, it's a perfect place for an ambush. Much like a school/classroom, you've got a captured audience of victims. Plus, it's dark inside the movie theater. He seemed to have thought this out quite well. From what some of the people are saying, at first, they thought it was something put on by the theater as part of the movie, but they quickly realized he was shooting people for real.

From what they've been reporting about this guy, he's very smart, he graduated with honors top of his class from the University of California-Riverside in neuroscience and was continuing graduate studies there in Aurora until a month ago. He told the police he had booby-trapped his apartment with chemical and incendiary devices. I think they're still trying to find a way to defuse everything. They said they might have to just blow the whole apartment building up because he's got all these wires leading to and from all these devices.

TENNESSEAN
07-21-2012, 02:55 AM
They should put him in the building then blow it up.

flo
07-21-2012, 04:00 AM
They should put him in the building then blow it up.

I'm totally with you on that.

Only fill it with tear gas first.

Bonnie
07-21-2012, 04:50 AM
They should put him in the building then blow it up.

Sounds like a good plan to me! Apparently that's what his plan was for the police...turnabout is fair play after all.

My sister told me she heard how he fixed his stereo to come on at a certain time to start blasting out loud music in the hopes his neighbors would call the police about it, and then when they showed up....KABOOM! That way, police and fire would be diverted to his apartment while he was executing (literally) his plan at the theater. Something must have gone wrong with that part of his plan though. His neighbor said she went over and banged on his door but nobody answered. She said when she banged on the door it felt like maybe it was unlocked and she thought about opening it and poking her head in to see what was going on, but she didn't, thank God!

J.B.
07-21-2012, 05:00 AM
This has literally made me sick all day. My friend Crystal has a cousin who is a nurse in Aurora CO, and she said it's been horrible since last night. To shoot and kill little kids like that. I hope God has mercy on his soul, because humanity doesn't owe him a single shred IMO.

Bonnie
07-21-2012, 06:33 AM
This has literally made me sick all day. My friend Crystal has a cousin who is a nurse in Aurora CO, and she said it's been horrible since last night. To shoot and kill little kids like that. I hope God has mercy on his soul, because humanity doesn't owe him a single shred IMO.

It had to be terrifying for those parents, frantically trying to get their little ones out of there while trying to protect them from being shot. What a nightmare!

One thing that bugged me today, some of the news hosts were asking survivors questions like, "Was there a lot of blood?" It's like they wanted all the gory details. It just seemed so insensitive and distasteful to me especially after what these people had just been through!

NateR
07-21-2012, 07:27 AM
This gunman is the best evidence for why the death penalty is a necessity.

J.B.
07-21-2012, 12:00 PM
It had to be terrifying for those parents, frantically trying to get their little ones out of there while trying to protect them from being shot. What a nightmare!

One thing that bugged me today, some of the news hosts were asking survivors questions like, "Was there a lot of blood?" It's like they wanted all the gory details. It just seemed so insensitive and distasteful to me especially after what these people had just been through!

I agree 100% Bonnie. All day long I had the news on and I was like WTF? Who cares "how much blood there was". I get it, they are trying to stretch the story over a 24 hour news cycle, but they come off looking worse than Jon Daly after a week long drunken binge.

PRShrek
07-21-2012, 04:41 PM
Iím not a conspiracy guy, but timing of these things always seems... odd to me. Columbine happened right before the NRA convention in the same state, the one in Kileen I think happened a few days before a vote to ban high capacity handguns, and in the last few days liberals have been trying to draw parallels between Bane the batman villain and Mitt Romney, former Bain chief and gun rights supporter.

I donít know, if I were a liberal Dr. Evil, how I could get someone to go Crazy on command, or if that is at all possible, the timing just seems odd.

J.B.
07-21-2012, 05:10 PM
Iím not a conspiracy guy, but timing of these things always seems... odd to me. Columbine happened right before the NRA convention in the same state, the one in Kileen I think happened a few days before a vote to ban high capacity handguns, and in the last few days liberals have been trying to draw parallels between Bane the batman villain and Mitt Romney, former Bain chief and gun rights supporter.

I donít know, if I were a liberal Dr. Evil, how I could get someone to go Crazy on command, or if that is at all possible, the timing just seems odd.

No. Don't feed the trolls.

PRShrek
07-21-2012, 05:18 PM
No. Don't feed the trolls.

Iím not feeding you anything.:wink:

J.B.
07-21-2012, 05:24 PM
Iím not feeding you anything.:wink:

That would be clever if I actually spent six years posting here just to prank you. :wink:

adamt
07-21-2012, 05:39 PM
sorry if i don't feel all that bad.... i'm not going to board the hype train that tells me how bad this is and then says we should "control" guns. I guess I shouldn't say i don't feel bad.... I just don't feel any worse than any other day considering the 1000's of babies that are killed, the dozens of people who are killed by alcohol, the dozens of people that are killed by tobacco, even the number of people that are killed by physician error every day.... why are we not lowering the flag to half staff for them? why do we not mourn them.....???? call me desensitized, but i'd be happy if there were only 12 people that innocently died every day due to alcohol or abortion, but since the government makes money off of it and alot of people utilize or enjoy it or whatever then that is a loss we are willing to endure and overlook, calling it choice....

guess that guy just chose to be a murderer, seemed like a normal dude up until he snapped,,,, guess he was just born that way and we should tolerate it. how else should i think, i am not allowed to consider morals or biblical standards, like absolute truths or something....

PRShrek
07-21-2012, 06:23 PM
That would be clever if I actually spent six years posting here just to prank you. :wink:

That doesnít make any sense.

sorry if i don't feel all that bad.... i'm not going to board the hype train that tells me how bad this is and then says we should "control" guns. I guess I shouldn't say i don't feel bad.... I just don't feel any worse than any other day considering the 1000's of babies that are killed, the dozens of people who are killed by alcohol, the dozens of people that are killed by tobacco, even the number of people that are killed by physician error every day.... why are we not lowering the flag to half staff for them? why do we not mourn them.....???? call me desensitized, but i'd be happy if there were only 12 people that innocently died every day due to alcohol or abortion, but since the government makes money off of it and alot of people utilize or enjoy it or whatever then that is a loss we are willing to endure and overlook, calling it choice....

guess that guy just chose to be a murderer, seemed like a normal dude up until he snapped,,,, guess he was just born that way and we should tolerate it. how else should i think, i am not allowed to consider morals or biblical standards, like absolute truths or something....

I have seen posts on other forums suggesting a possible link between these attacks and abortion, not direct but a weakening of respect for life or a degrading of the fabric of society. J.B. can call people trolls if he wants, but something is going on. These things have been happening on a regular basis since the early eighties, and they were unheard of before that. The mugshots of the ones who survive all have the same weird smirk. Creepy.

J.B.
07-21-2012, 06:51 PM
That doesn’t make any sense.

Then you don't know what a troll is, you also think I called you a troll, which is false. Re-read what I said.

NateR
07-21-2012, 08:00 PM
but something is going on. These things have been happening on a regular basis since the early eighties, and they were unheard of before that. The mugshots of the ones who survive all have the same weird smirk. Creepy.

Oh it's absolutely spiritual warfare that is going on here.

There is this thing called "restraining grace" that GOD places over a society when His followers in that society stay faithful to Him. As Christians begin to stray further and further away from GOD (excusing abortion, legitimizing homosexuality, etc.) and the society begins to reject GOD more and more, GOD lifts that restraining grace and people's true nature begins to take over opening the door for attacks like this one.

And if that wasn't bad enough we still have Satan, who is the prince of this earth, running everything from our governments to our popular culture.

That's not a conspiracy theory, that is right out of the Bible. Which is why Christ tells us that we will be enemies of this world if we choose to follow Him.

cheachea
07-21-2012, 08:31 PM
I wish at least one person had a concealed handgun in that crowd. I know that it still would have been tough to kill the guy because he was wearing body armor and had an assault rifle ,but they would have had a slight chance to neutralize him.

adamt
07-21-2012, 09:27 PM
Oh it's absolutely spiritual warfare that is going on here.

There is this thing called "restraining grace" that GOD places over a society when His followers in that society stay faithful to Him. As Christians begin to stray further and further away from GOD (excusing abortion, legitimizing homosexuality, etc.) and the society begins to reject GOD more and more, GOD lifts that restraining grace and people's true nature begins to take over opening the door for attacks like this one.

And if that wasn't bad enough we still have Satan, who is the prince of this earth, running everything from our governments to our popular culture.

That's not a conspiracy theory, that is right out of the Bible. Which is why Christ tells us that we will be enemies of this world if we choose to follow Him.

AMEN!!!

I will add a couple thoughts.... some of which are totally off topic....

one is that the tribulation will occur when the church is taken out of the world, because the Holy Ghost(the restrainer) will be taken out of the world, leaving evil to run rampant.... i will digress further to note that satan does not know who the anti christ will be because satan does not know when Christ will return, and while he may have people ready to utilize as the anti christ, he doesn't know if he will need them or not... also, the anti christ will have to make a grand entrance, so already being famous or infamous will rule out anyone such as obama as the antichrist. hitler could have been a candidate, nero as well, and so on..., so I will agree with Nate and add my two cents worth saying that the Holy Spirit is not restraining evil as much because there are not as many temples filled with the Holy Spirit in the world

I also believe that the "creepy" coincdences are not coincedences at all, but are supernatural orchestrations

I question why there was a 3 month old baby, 4 month old baby, 6 year old girl, 12 year old boys, etc... at a pg 13 movie.....in the middle of the night

I find it amazing to hear some of the eye witness testimony that clearly depicts how unashamedly and obliviously cowardly some of the men were in that theater. talking about how they couldn't carry their dates out and still get out themselves(and acting surprised when they hear their date ended up getting killed when they left her in there), i heard one guy say his baby's head was exposed and stuck in between the seats but he couldn't stand up to help cause he might get shot, but he was bawling cause he "knew" his baby was gonna get shot.....

i know the feeling you get when you watch a good comic book movie.... you get to thinking you could be a hero.... I hope those people in that theater don't ever make that mistake again.....

I find it ironic that they were watching a movie where hundreds of innocent people are dying in the movie, yet we pay that no mind anymore in our society, we are absolutely oblivious to the carnage in the movies..... i would love to know a conservative estimate of how many people are killed in the batman movies, and i would love to know if anyone actually cares about them when they are watching the movie..... which shows you how desensitized we are to it.... then when a dozen people get killed in real life we are surprised..... "it's all make believe"... until someone dresses up as joker and shoots up a theater, isn't that what he told the police... he was the joker, with the orange hair and everything....

it would be nice to portray the victims families in the movies, but of the thousands of innocent victims in the movies, you never see what you see on tv right now....

I totally think satan can lead his people like the Holy Spirit can lead me and mine.... Satan can't read minds and such, but I imagine he knows I pack heat, and I don't think he would have his guy come in on a theater with a pistol packing christian..... I doubt he wants that outcome, and I do believe he considers that and that is a big reason I don't think there are more civillians with handguns getting to shoot these imbeciles in the act....

people need to stop idolizing christian bale and start cultivating some real character

kevint13
07-21-2012, 09:29 PM
sorry if i don't feel all that bad.... i'm not going to board the hype train that tells me how bad this is and then says we should "control" guns. I guess I shouldn't say i don't feel bad.... I just don't feel any worse than any other day considering the 1000's of babies that are killed, the dozens of people who are killed by alcohol, the dozens of people that are killed by tobacco, even the number of people that are killed by physician error every day.... why are we not lowering the flag to half staff for them? why do we not mourn them.....???? call me desensitized, but i'd be happy if there were only 12 people that innocently died every day due to alcohol or abortion, but since the government makes money off of it and alot of people utilize or enjoy it or whatever then that is a loss we are willing to endure and overlook, calling it choice....

guess that guy just chose to be a murderer, seemed like a normal dude up until he snapped,,,, guess he was just born that way and we should tolerate it. how else should i think, i am not allowed to consider morals or biblical standards, like absolute truths or something....

This was a planned act of violence against other humans. Your examples are not planned by someone (I am not going to include abortion because that all depends on how someone views the unborn child as a being). There are risks with having a surgery, using tobacco and alcohol, heck even driving your car and people are presented with these warnings. There should not be a risk of death by going to the movies or going to school (Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc.).

adamt
07-22-2012, 03:58 AM
This was a planned act of violence against other humans. Your examples are not planned by someone (I am not going to include abortion because that all depends on how someone views the unborn child as a being). There are risks with having a surgery, using tobacco and alcohol, heck even driving your car and people are presented with these warnings. There should not be a risk of death by going to the movies or going to school (Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc.).

what does it matter if it was planned or not.... in 2009 there were 29 pedestrians under the age of 15 killed by drunk drivers, that's well over twice as many that got killed thursday night and these were all kids who were out walking! Are you telling me that it is easier to go tell there parents that, "hey a drunk driver killed your kid, but it was not a planned thing, so it's cool, it's not like they shot them or something."

if there should not be a death at school, then there certainly shouldn't be a death while out walking..... and if "presenting them with warnings" makes it okay to cause or allow death by alcohol or tobacco then just warn everybody that there is a chance of someone shooting them at school or a movie


you say premeditated violence is worse, but i dare say that benefitting monetarily from others death, i.e. alcohol, tobacco, abortion, is WAY worse

flo
07-22-2012, 04:13 AM
It had to be terrifying for those parents, frantically trying to get their little ones out of there while trying to protect them from being shot. What a nightmare!

One thing that bugged me today, some of the news hosts were asking survivors questions like, "Was there a lot of blood?" It's like they wanted all the gory details. It just seemed so insensitive and distasteful to me especially after what these people had just been through!

Amen to that, Bonnie. I was appalled that some reporter "interviewed" the father of the dead 6 year-old girl. We quit watching all coverage after that.

I'm sick of seeing the murderer's face as well. I wish the media would stop sensationalizing these sick tragedies, I think they just play into the psycho's hands.

EHLERZ5
07-22-2012, 04:16 PM
I'm sick of seeing the murderer's face as well. I wish the media would stop sensationalizing these sick tragedies, I think they just play into the psycho's hands.

This is my main problem as well.... Not only do they show the next troubled soul, how this "Jigsaw" wannabe, executed every step of action, the reporters go into detail about what type of guns, ammo, and body armor he was wearing... Brutal!

TENNESSEAN
07-23-2012, 03:53 AM
Oh it's absolutely spiritual warfare that is going on here.

There is this thing called "restraining grace" that GOD places over a society when His followers in that society stay faithful to Him. As Christians begin to stray further and further away from GOD (excusing abortion, legitimizing homosexuality, etc.) and the society begins to reject GOD more and more, GOD lifts that restraining grace and people's true nature begins to take over opening the door for attacks like this one.

And if that wasn't bad enough we still have Satan, who is the prince of this earth, running everything from our governments to our popular culture.

That's not a conspiracy theory, that is right out of the Bible. Which is why Christ tells us that we will be enemies of this world if we choose to follow Him.

I stoped reading the thread here. This post is perfect! Bravo nater.

huan
07-24-2012, 05:10 AM
I wish at least one person had a concealed handgun in that crowd. I know that it still would have been tough to kill the guy because he was wearing body armor and had an assault rifle ,but they would have had a slight chance to neutralize him.

I tend to agree with this, despite the fact that you have to have gone through some pretty advanced training to be able to safely problem solve in such a chaotic and stressful situation.

PRShrek
07-24-2012, 12:44 PM
I tend to agree with this, despite the fact that you have to have gone through some pretty advanced training to be able to safely problem solve in such a chaotic and stressful situation.

One guy silhouetted against a theater screen is not a complex marksmanship problem. Most civilian self defense shootings are pretty straight forward, Ďthat guy is trying to stab me, BANG!í

rearnakedchoke
07-24-2012, 01:03 PM
sorry if i don't feel all that bad.... i'm not going to board the hype train that tells me how bad this is and then says we should "control" guns. I guess I shouldn't say i don't feel bad.... I just don't feel any worse than any other day considering the 1000's of babies that are killed, the dozens of people who are killed by alcohol, the dozens of people that are killed by tobacco, even the number of people that are killed by physician error every day.... why are we not lowering the flag to half staff for them? why do we not mourn them.....???? call me desensitized, but i'd be happy if there were only 12 people that innocently died every day due to alcohol or abortion, but since the government makes money off of it and alot of people utilize or enjoy it or whatever then that is a loss we are willing to endure and overlook, calling it choice....

guess that guy just chose to be a murderer, seemed like a normal dude up until he snapped,,,, guess he was just born that way and we should tolerate it. how else should i think, i am not allowed to consider morals or biblical standards, like absolute truths or something....

usually the people who are killed by alchohol and tobacco are doing it to themselves, that is the difference (except for drunk driving, secondhand smoke etc) ... does the government also make money off guns? i am not an american, but there must be some sort of fees for having guns that the gov't makes money off of (tax, registration, licences) ...

its funny, cuz if i wrote something like this and instead of alcohol and tobacco, replaced it with "thousands of civilians killed as unintended targets of war" i woulda been called out for "typical liberal thinking" or "war always has its casualties" ... i also think its funny that this has been deemed by some a "conspiracy theory" concocted to control guns by some .. LOL ..

PRShrek
07-24-2012, 01:46 PM
usually the people who are killed by alchohol and tobacco are doing it to themselves, that is the difference (except for drunk driving, secondhand smoke etc) ... does the government also make money off guns? i am not an american, but there must be some sort of fees for having guns that the gov't makes money off of (tax, registration, licences) ...

its funny, cuz if i wrote something like this and instead of alcohol and tobacco, replaced it with "thousands of civilians killed as unintended targets of war" i woulda been called out for "typical liberal thinking" or "war always has its casualties" ... i also think its funny that this has been deemed by some a "conspiracy theory" concocted to control guns by some .. LOL ..

Your thinking is so muddled itís hard to see what youíre getting at. Yes, there are taxes on guns, just like there are taxes on everything else, what do you think that is supposed to mean? And as far as "civilians killed as unintended targets of war" Iím not sure how that would be different to the point he was making than alcohol or tobacco or traffic or cholera or falls in the shower.

rearnakedchoke
07-24-2012, 02:00 PM
Your thinking is so muddled itís hard to see what youíre getting at. Yes, there are taxes on guns, just like there are taxes on everything else, what do you think that is supposed to mean? And as far as "civilians killed as unintended targets of war" Iím not sure how that would be different to the point he was making than alcohol or tobacco or traffic or cholera or falls in the shower.

my point is that adam is saying why should he feel worse for the people in this tradegy then the hundreds of people who die from abortion, smoking and drinking each day ... i was just saying that the people who died in this tragedy were going to a movie and is totally different then people knowing the consequences of smoking and drinkning and still doing it .. my other point is that adam is saying the gov't gets paid for alcohol and tobacco and that is the reason they don't do anything to control it more, my response is that they also get paid for guns, so why would they want to get rid of them?

thats all

PRShrek
07-24-2012, 02:58 PM
my point is that adam is saying why should he feel worse for the people in this tradegy then the hundreds of people who die from abortion, smoking and drinking each day ... i was just saying that the people who died in this tragedy were going to a movie and is totally different then people knowing the consequences of smoking and drinkning and still doing it .. my other point is that adam is saying the gov't gets paid for alcohol and tobacco and that is the reason they don't do anything to control it more, my response is that they also get paid for guns, so why would they want to get rid of them?

thats all

Iím provoking you to keep posting because I like your sig, LOL!

Most of the taxes on tobacco (and maybe alcohol as well, Iím not sure) are meant to raise the price and discourage people from doing it.

As for why they donít control guns: "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." -Jeff Cooper

adamt
07-24-2012, 04:01 PM
my point is that adam is saying why should he feel worse for the people in this tradegy then the hundreds of people who die from abortion, smoking and drinking each day ... i was just saying that the people who died in this tragedy were going to a movie and is totally different then people knowing the consequences of smoking and drinkning and still doing it .. my other point is that adam is saying the gov't gets paid for alcohol and tobacco and that is the reason they don't do anything to control it more, my response is that they also get paid for guns, so why would they want to get rid of them?

thats all

I know that some people cause their own death with drugs and alcohol,,, i don't think they should be calculated in the equation anymore than suicide should be calculated in with gun deaths.... i am merely comparing unintentional and innocent victims to unintentional and innocent victims

i appreciate your civil arguments and am hoping to respond equally civilly

MY point is that there are way more deaths due to alcohol and drugs to innocent people than there are by guns..... i am not talking about people who accidentally or purposefully kill themselves with them

that's not even including abortion


that's also not factoring in the family dysfunction that alcohol and even gambling causes.....

and to your second point..... there is no comparison between the taxes made off of alcohol, tobacco, and gambling as compared to guns..... guns are a miniscule revenue source for the government.... proportionately less than other things like cars or such....

adamt
07-24-2012, 04:46 PM
I wish at least one person had a concealed handgun in that crowd. I know that it still would have been tough to kill the guy because he was wearing body armor and had an assault rifle ,but they would have had a slight chance to neutralize him.

http://news.investors.com/article/619196/201207231853/aurora-colorado-theater-gun-free-zone.htm

huan
07-24-2012, 08:32 PM
One guy silhouetted against a theater screen is not a complex marksmanship problem. Most civilian self defense shootings are pretty straight forward, Ďthat guy is trying to stab me, BANG!í

a silhouette against a theater screen?

consider that the situation is totally unexpected and it begins in an instant; it's dark, the room is filled with tear gas, and your ears are already ringing from hearing damage inducing shots and screaming. you find your target: a fully armored assailant sporting an AR-15 and a 100 rd. drum of 5.56, firing rapidly and on the move. people are running, stepping over dead bodies and the wounded and this is as simple as shooting one guy silhouetted against a theater screen? I don't think so. have you ever ran through a shoot house in little to no light with a team? now how about against others who are now shooting back? now throw in the innocents whom you are there to protect and intend to save. you don't want to become a liability and kill one of them when you make a minor mistake. it is a ridiculously complicated problem, and you have to understand advanced application under stress to cope with that kind of situation.

PRShrek
07-24-2012, 08:57 PM
a silhouette against a theater screen?

consider that the situation is totally unexpected and it begins in an instant; it's dark, the room is filled with tear gas, and your ears are already ringing from hearing damage inducing shots and screaming. you find your target: a fully armored assailant sporting an AR-15 and a 100 rd. drum of 5.56, firing rapidly and on the move. people are running, stepping over dead bodies and the wounded and this is as simple as shooting one guy silhouetted against a theater screen? I don't think so. have you ever ran through a shoot house in little to no light with a team? now how about against others who are now shooting back? now throw in the innocents whom you are there to protect and intend to save. you don't want to become a liability and kill one of them when you make a minor mistake. it is a ridiculously complicated problem, and you have to understand advanced application under stress to cope with that kind of situation.

Sounds like youíre overthinking this. An armed citizen is not there to run through with a team, count the rounds in his drum magazine, or worry what an after action team might think of his minor mistakes. The bad guy in this case was painting himself like a laser with his behavior and costume, and was distracted by his many intended victims. The problem for the armed citizen in this theater is: find the bad guy part with the face on it, front sight, press.

Bonnie
07-24-2012, 10:25 PM
One guy silhouetted against a theater screen is not a complex marksmanship problem. Most civilian self defense shootings are pretty straight forward, Ďthat guy is trying to stab me, BANG!í

Might not have been that easy--remember he came prepared with what sounded like full body armour, although, I'm not sure how protected his face and head were with the gas mask. Maybe if there had been someone with military or police gun/combat experience in that theater who happened to be armed.

huan
07-24-2012, 11:07 PM
Sounds like youíre overthinking this. An armed citizen is not there to run through with a team, count the rounds in his drum magazine, or worry what an after action team might think of his minor mistakes. The bad guy in this case was painting himself like a laser with his behavior and costume, and was distracted by his many intended victims. The problem for the armed citizen in this theater is: find the bad guy part with the face on it, front sight, press.

a movie theater is not a cozy & short pistol range. have you ever shot a sidearm at distance? how about under stress? most people are not even remotely capable of reasonable pistol accuracy at 15 yards. now let's say you're 25 or even 50 yards from the shooter, and your odds of an effective round on target starts to go downhill REALLY fast, especially when you can expect to be about half as accurate in a high stress situation.

look, I'm definitely not advocating doing absolutely nothing. I truly wish someone was there who was carrying concealed. would it have made a difference? I don't know, honestly. I definitely hope so, but the chaotic environment was such that we can never know.

adamt
07-24-2012, 11:55 PM
a movie theater is not a cozy & short pistol range. have you ever shot a sidearm at distance? how about under stress? most people are not even remotely capable of reasonable pistol accuracy at 15 yards. now let's say you're 25 or even 50 yards from the shooter, and your odds of an effective round on target starts to go downhill REALLY fast, especially when you can expect to be about half as accurate in a high stress situation.

look, I'm definitely not advocating doing absolutely nothing. I truly wish someone was there who was carrying concealed. would it have made a difference? I don't know, honestly. I definitely hope so, but the chaotic environment was such that we can never know.

full body armor doesn't keep it from hurting it just keeps you alive..... i think if he had got shot at, he would have been like- what the &^*%, i'm outtahere, you wouldn't even have to hit him.... he was/is a coward, he would have peed his pants and ran out screaming like a little girl,,,,, even if he didn't get hit, the mere fact he was getting shot at would scare him off, or at the very least slow him down.... i don't think you would have had to kill him to stop him, and if you did hit him, even in body armor, it would have hurt like crap and he would think he was dying....

J.B.
07-25-2012, 02:40 AM
full body armor doesn't keep it from hurting it just keeps you alive..... i think if he had got shot at, he would have been like- what the &^*%,..

:blink:

adamt
07-25-2012, 02:53 AM
:blink:

didn't you realize that getting shot in a bullet proof vest still hurts like the dickens??? they say it is like getting hit with a baseball bat, the force HAS to be absorbed by something, it might not penetrate but the force is way worse...

and i doubt his gas mask was bulletproof

and my point was and is that if he had gotten shot at, he would have reacted like most of the people he was shooting at, he would have headed for the exit.... all it woulda took was for him to realize he was taking fire, he didn't even resist the police....

huan
07-25-2012, 03:31 AM
because people tripped out on psychotropics in the middle of mass murder totally behave and react as one would normally expect, right?

adamt
07-25-2012, 04:50 AM
because people tripped out on psychotropics in the middle of mass murder totally behave and react as one would normally expect, right?

because people who are proficiently executing a mass murder with hard to handle equipment are doped up, right? people who are capable of building complex bombs in an apartment, are on psychotropics, right?

huan
07-25-2012, 06:10 AM
because people who are proficiently executing a mass murder with hard to handle equipment are doped up, right? people who are capable of building complex bombs in an apartment, are on psychotropics, right?

considering we know he took vicodin, part hydrocodone which has psychotropic effects, yes.

J.B.
07-25-2012, 07:36 AM
didn't you realize that getting shot in a bullet proof vest still hurts like the dickens??? they say it is like getting hit with a baseball bat, the force HAS to be absorbed by something, it might not penetrate but the force is way worse...

and i doubt his gas mask was bulletproof

and my point was and is that if he had gotten shot at, he would have reacted like most of the people he was shooting at, he would have headed for the exit.... all it woulda took was for him to realize he was taking fire, he didn't even resist the police....

Honestly, knowing what we know know now. You could be right. He probably ran like the pussy we all know he is deep inside. Clearly he is the lowest form of bitch, because he didn't even have enough balls to kill himself. Hope he dies by bleeding to death via anal rape in prison.

NateR
07-25-2012, 08:55 AM
didn't you realize that getting shot in a bullet proof vest still hurts like the dickens??? they say it is like getting hit with a baseball bat, the force HAS to be absorbed by something, it might not penetrate but the force is way worse...

and i doubt his gas mask was bulletproof

and my point was and is that if he had gotten shot at, he would have reacted like most of the people he was shooting at, he would have headed for the exit.... all it woulda took was for him to realize he was taking fire, he didn't even resist the police....

I agree, if someone in the audience had been carrying a concealed handgun and shot at the shooter, it might not have stopped him completely, but it possibly would have slowed him down enough to prevent some of the deaths and injuries.

The downside is that, if someone did shoot the gunman and ended the killings, then some anti-gun, activist lawyer would probably press charges against that person, even though they did what was necessary in order to save lives.

J.B.
07-25-2012, 10:07 AM
I agree, if someone in the audience had been carrying a concealed handgun and shot at the shooter, it might not have stopped him completely, but it possibly would have slowed him down enough to prevent some of the deaths and injuries.

The downside is that, if someone did shoot the gunman and ended the killings, then some anti-gun, activist lawyer would probably press charges against that person, even though they did what was necessary in order to save lives.

Carrying a concealed weapon inside the theatre is against the law....:sad: (not saying it wouldnt stop the psycho in question, just saying)

adamt
07-25-2012, 12:04 PM
Carrying a concealed weapon inside the theatre is against the law....:sad: (not saying it wouldnt stop the psycho in question, just saying)

well, that is a good reason to target a theater isn't it....given the choice to walk in and shoot up the nra convention or a theater that denies guns on the premises, i would prolly shoot up the place that i know no one is packing any heat

adamt
07-25-2012, 12:11 PM
considering we know he took vicodin, part hydrocodone which has psychotropic effects, yes.

it would have had to be alot of vicodin and hydrocodone.... i know it is quite the popular thing to do now in high school football to dope up on vicodin and codeine before a game, which just dulls thier pain and makes them a little more fearless, but i don't think they are nutjobs while out on the field

adamt
07-25-2012, 12:15 PM
Carrying a concealed weapon inside the theatre is against the law....:sad: (not saying it wouldnt stop the psycho in question, just saying)



i know i posted about this story earlier, but i still think it is poignant
http://joemiller.us/2012/07/the-right-to-shoot-back-another-gun-free-zone-fail/

it just happens to be this year and in the same town

J.B.
07-25-2012, 12:19 PM
well, that is a good reason to target a theater isn't it....given the choice to walk in and shoot up the nra convention or a theater that denies guns on the premises, i would prolly shoot up the place that i know no one is packing any heat

His plan was pretty obvious.

Get the music to blare in his apartment so the cops get called.

Cops respond, and Cops/innocent victims get blown up by the homemade bombs

All the attention goes to his place at about the same time he starts unloading on the people watching the movie.

:wacko:

I really wish our legal system wasn't so jacked up. This guy should be hanging right now.

PRShrek
07-25-2012, 01:04 PM
a movie theater is not a cozy & short pistol range. have you ever shot a sidearm at distance? how about under stress? most people are not even remotely capable of reasonable pistol accuracy at 15 yards. now let's say you're 25 or even 50 yards from the shooter, and your odds of an effective round on target starts to go downhill REALLY fast, especially when you can expect to be about half as accurate in a high stress situation.

look, I'm definitely not advocating doing absolutely nothing. I truly wish someone was there who was carrying concealed. would it have made a difference? I don't know, honestly. I definitely hope so, but the chaotic environment was such that we can never know.

I understand what youíre saying, and I donít think anyone should expect to roll up hero style and have an easy and consequence-free time of it.

In this area a few years ago a kid in a Ďgun-freeí mall started gunning people down in the food court. An armed citizen ran to the scene and shouted at the kid to drop the gun. The kid immediately turned and shot the armed citizen, who died of his wounds but not before critically shooting the kid. The good guy died, the bad guy lived, but the slaughter of innocents stopped when the armed citizen showed up.

Now Iím not sitting safely behind my keyboard encouraging others to play Rambo. Iíve made a personal commitment to be the Ďsomeoneí who does something, and have done so on several minor opportunities, but I always keep the Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry (http://www.firearmstactical.com/index.htm) firmly in mind and if I roll, I roll like SnackMan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-G3WZorfBQ).

huan
07-25-2012, 03:58 PM
I really wish our legal system wasn't so jacked up. This guy should be hanging right now.

you can thank liberals for that. when you can't prevent something with law just make it so expensive and take so long that you mitigate its purpose and effectiveness.

adamt
07-25-2012, 04:01 PM
His plan was pretty obvious.

Get the music to blare in his apartment so the cops get called.

Cops respond, and Cops/innocent victims get blown up by the homemade bombs

All the attention goes to his place at about the same time he starts unloading on the people watching the movie.

:wacko:

I really wish our legal system wasn't so jacked up. This guy should be hanging right now.

i agree.....

but i also think it is just more reason to not rely on the government to protect us


i also have some animosity towards the hollywood types that are just promoting this behavior in the movies they make..... though I have already harped on that..... that and christian bale and whatever the directors name is can't take all the burden because they are just giving the masses what they want, it's like asking the question of who is at fault in roman times for feeding the christians to the lions.... the ceasars doing it or the masses demanding it?

adamt
07-25-2012, 04:07 PM
you can thank liberals for that. when you can't prevent something with law just make it so expensive and take so long that you mitigate its purpose and effectiveness.

i love taking pot shots at liberals as much as the next guy, but i do have to say that republicans make their share of needless beauracracy as well, if they didn't they would be out of a job..... BUT we the people are at the most fault for letting them do it, we are uneducated, spoiled, lazy people that like to be taken care of and entertained without suffering any inconveniece, we have lost our critical thinking and believe whatever we are told


btw.... when i grew up i was taught by people who knew that dinosaurs were cold blooded..... no doubt in their minds....

my kids' generation will be taught that dinosaurs were warm blooded.... and they will unquestioningly believe anything they are told.... and that is the downfall of our society

huan
07-25-2012, 04:16 PM
i love taking pot shots at liberals as much as the next guy, but i do have to say that republicans make their share of needless beauracracy as well, if they didn't they would be out of a job..... BUT we the people are at the most fault for letting them do it, we are uneducated, spoiled, lazy people that like to be taken care of and entertained without suffering any inconveniece, we have lost our critical thinking and believe whatever we are told


btw.... when i grew up i was taught by people who knew that dinosaurs were cold blooded..... no doubt in their minds....

my kids' generation will be taught that dinosaurs were warm blooded.... and they will unquestioningly believe anything they are told.... and that is the downfall of our society

completely agree, and that's why I said liberals and not democrats. almost everyone agrees that the majority of politicians are trash, republicans and democrats alike (while being complacent and doing nothing about it). it's one of many reasons why the liberal mindset of trust the government, not the individual cracks me up so much.

Neezar
07-25-2012, 05:32 PM
I tend to agree with this, despite the fact that you have to have gone through some pretty advanced training to be able to safely problem solve in such a chaotic and stressful situation.

a movie theater is not a cozy & short pistol range. have you ever shot a sidearm at distance? how about under stress? most people are not even remotely capable of reasonable pistol accuracy at 15 yards. now let's say you're 25 or even 50 yards from the shooter, and your odds of an effective round on target starts to go downhill REALLY fast, especially when you can expect to be about half as accurate in a high stress situation.

look, I'm definitely not advocating doing absolutely nothing. I truly wish someone was there who was carrying concealed. would it have made a difference? I don't know, honestly. I definitely hope so, but the chaotic environment was such that we can never know.

You must be a cop. I agree with every word.

As much as I am all for the right to bear arms, and as much as I wished there could have been someone to prevent some of the damage inflicted there I can also see that an unprepared armed citizen could have turned out disasterous.

I wouldn't be shocked if there was an armed citizen in that theatre. I know they will never admit it and I wouldn't blame them.

You can teach someone what to do in a situation like that. You can even drill them. But you never know how you will react unless you experience it. And 99% of the population will NOT react how they thought they would.

PRShrek
07-25-2012, 06:30 PM
As much as I am all for the right to bear arms, and as much as I wished there could have been someone to prevent some of the damage inflicted there I can also see that an unprepared armed citizen could have turned out disasterous.

Did you mean MORE disastrous? How? He killed 12 and injured 58! Guys, we're not talking about leaping to the moon here, we're talking about something that can be and has been done:

Armed Citizen Stopped VA College Shooting Rampage January 16, 2002
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818798/posts

Armed citizen stops murderous knife rampage 4/26/12
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

Armed Churchgoer stops rampage shooting- Aurora, Colorado (April 2012)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2909745/posts

Bonnie
07-25-2012, 06:36 PM
You must be a cop. I agree with every word.

As much as I am all for the right to bear arms, and as much as I wished there could have been someone to prevent some of the damage inflicted there I can also see that an unprepared armed citizen could have turned out disasterous.

I wouldn't be shocked if there was an armed citizen in that theatre. I know they will never admit it and I wouldn't blame them.

You can teach someone what to do in a situation like that. You can even drill them. But you never know how you will react unless you experience it. And 99% of the population will NOT react how they thought they would.

Plus, at that time, no one knew for sure that there weren't other crazies with this guy hiding in the dark. Imagine the police coming in on that scene, with armed civilians, they wouldn't know in that chaos who the "good" guy is.

Neezar
07-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Did you mean MORE disastrous? How? He killed 12 and injured 58! Guys, we're not talking about leaping to the moon here, we're talking about something that can be and has been done:

Armed Citizen Stopped VA College Shooting Rampage January 16, 2002
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818798/posts

Armed citizen stops murderous knife rampage 4/26/12
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

Armed Churchgoer stops rampage shooting- Aurora, Colorado (April 2012)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2909745/posts


I just read an interesting piece. Here is a small section.



From: (http://www.progunleaders.org/university (http://www.progunleaders.org/university))
Collateral damage. The argument is sometimes made that if a madman is killing people in a university setting and a legally armed student or employee should attempt to stop the killer, there is an unacceptable risk that the legally armed individual may inadvertently injure others. This argument rests on several assumptions not substantiated by analysis or history.

The first assumption is that the killer will voluntarily stop killing without intervention, so that any inadvertent injury caused by a legally armed individual will be greater than the injury not caused by the killer who voluntarily stops. The reality is that the type of killers who committed multiple murder in Virginia Tech and NIU do not stop voluntarily. They continue to run up the numbers of slain until stopped by another armed person. So, the assumption that inadvertent injuries that might be caused by an intervening legally armed individual would be greater than the injuries likely to be caused by an unstopped mass murderer is an incorrect assumption. It ignores the established fact that a mass murderer will not stop voluntarily - he is only stopped by another person.

Second, an assailant would likely be physically separated from his victims, making him a lone target for an intervening armed private person. Thus, any missed shots by a legally armed intervenor would be less likely to injure another person. By contrast, an assailant in a university setting is more likely to encounter a clustered group of victims, facilitating mass injury by the assailant. The theory of unacceptable collateral damage from self-defense does not take this juxtaposition into account.

The third assumption is that if the victims just wait long enough, those still surviving will no longer be at risk once police finally arrive. This is simply not true. The national data for the effectiveness of police shooting indicates that police officers involved in gunfights actually connect with one out of thirteen rounds fired (on average; the studies vary in result, from about one in seven to as much as one in thirty, depending on which study one selects). These missed shots by police go somewhere, and injury to innocent bystanders is not uncommon. Conversely, the "hit rate" by legally armed citizens is one in two, much better odds indeed for the safety of innocent bystanders.

Finally, a historical note is in order. Historically, legally armed private citizens have injured nobody else when interfering in the killings by a would-be mass murderer. This includes actual case histories of shootings in a high school in Mississippi, in a mall in Utah, in a church in Colorado, and recently at a university in Israel.

Therefore, the claim that an armed citizen interfering with a mass murderer may cause more injury than the murderer, albeit accidentally, is not either an informed or rational argument.




:ashamed: Yep. That was me, uninformed and irrational. lol




Plus, at that time, no one knew for sure that there weren't other crazies with this guy hiding in the dark. Imagine the police coming in on that scene, with armed civilians, they wouldn't know in that chaos who the "good" guy is.

Bonnie, your argument is much better than mine. :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
07-25-2012, 07:58 PM
I agree, if someone in the audience had been carrying a concealed handgun and shot at the shooter, it might not have stopped him completely, but it possibly would have slowed him down enough to prevent some of the deaths and injuries.

The downside is that, if someone did shoot the gunman and ended the killings, then some anti-gun, activist lawyer would probably press charges against that person, even though they did what was necessary in order to save lives.

or as bonnie pointed out ^^^^^ the real downside would have been that police shooting the hero in a dark movie theatre in the chaos ...

PRShrek
07-25-2012, 08:28 PM
or as bonnie pointed out ^^^^^ the real downside would have been that police shooting the hero in a dark movie theatre in the chaos ...

Even trained professionals sometimes shoot each other, so yeah, that is a risk.

NateR
07-25-2012, 11:10 PM
or as bonnie pointed out ^^^^^ the real downside would have been that police shooting the hero in a dark movie theatre in the chaos ...

I don't know, some people would say that just because there is risk involved in doing the right thing, that is still no excuse for doing nothing.

Remember the quote:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Edmund_Burke/)

adamt
07-25-2012, 11:43 PM
or as bonnie pointed out ^^^^^ the real downside would have been that police shooting the hero in a dark movie theatre in the chaos ...

um... :huh::unsure::blink:

i am pretty sure the bad guy had shot as many people as he wanted or was physically/mechanically capable of and then was aprehended in the parking lot..... had the cops shot the bad guy in the movie theater we would not be having this conversation.... in fact that would put a dent in a large portion of my argument ---that we need to be able to protect ourselves. but seeing as how the cops were no where around while the chaos in the movie theater was occurring i am pretty sure we wouldn't have to worry about them shooting the good guy

adamt
07-25-2012, 11:47 PM
Even trained professionals sometimes shoot each other, so yeah, that is a risk.

i will just continue my above post here and reitterate that since there were no cops in the theater or anywhere close to saving anybody in the theater I am pretty sure the good guys shooting each other was not an issue, i am pretty sure anybody with or without a gun trying to stop him would have been a welcome relief

adamt
07-25-2012, 11:48 PM
and since i am on a roll, i propose that any place that wants to proclaim themselves gun free ought to be required by law to provide security for the people they are disarming and also be held liable for any damages that occur while under their watch

Bonnie
07-26-2012, 04:25 AM
For the record, I'm not advocating no one do nothing. But, I understand what Neezy was getting at, and pointing out one real possibility with the cop/good guy scenario.

Bonnie
07-26-2012, 04:32 AM
i will just continue my above post here and reitterate that since there were no cops in the theater or anywhere close to saving anybody in the theater I am pretty sure the good guys shooting each other was not an issue, i am pretty sure anybody with or without a gun trying to stop him would have been a welcome relief

We're just talking about the possibility of friendly fire in certain situations.

adamt
07-26-2012, 01:16 PM
We're just talking about the possibility of friendly fire in certain situations.

i understand, but i just didn't want the dialogue to slip too much into a hypothetical scenario and based on nothing but "what ifs".

that's too much like saying we have to allow all abortions because what if the mother was raped/incest/life at danger, which is like a total of less than 4 percent.

if friendly fire occurred 4 percent of the time i would still be for arming people against evil idgits like aurora.

PRShrek
07-26-2012, 01:22 PM
and since i am on a roll, i propose that any place that wants to proclaim themselves gun free ought to be required by law to provide security for the people they are disarming and also be held liable for any damages that occur while under their watch

Now THAT is an interesting idea! I suppose you're thinking small, like theaters and restaurants, but maybe once the precedence is established it could be applied on a larger scale... like, say, New York City?

PRShrek
07-26-2012, 02:07 PM
if friendly fire occurred 4 percent of the time i would still be for arming people against evil idgits like aurora.

I was actually calculating around two percent, but four sounds fair enough. I figure the odds of getting shot by the bad guy at around sixty percent, about the same whether I’m shooting back or hiding/begging/fleeing. The odds of other people getting shot if no one does anything: One hundred percent.

I figure the odds of getting shot fighting back empty handed at around seventy five percent, nothing-verses-gun is less than optimal, but I'm betting even at my age I can still cross a room and shoulder check a weirdo faster than he can change a magazine.

adamt
07-26-2012, 08:01 PM
I was actually calculating around two percent, but four sounds fair enough. I figure the odds of getting shot by the bad guy at around sixty percent, about the same whether Iím shooting back or hiding/begging/fleeing. The odds of other people getting shot if no one does anything: One hundred percent.

I figure the odds of getting shot fighting back empty handed at around seventy five percent, nothing-verses-gun is less than optimal, but I'm betting even at my age I can still cross a room and shoulder check a weirdo faster than he can change a magazine.

+1

Tyburn
07-26-2012, 08:28 PM
Its like military strategy in this thread :blink:

...Erm...American Friendly fire might be an issue...it certainly has been on the battlefield I'm afraid :unsure-1:

PRShrek
07-26-2012, 08:50 PM
...Erm...American Friendly fire might be an issue...it certainly has been on the battlefield I'm afraid :unsure-1:

Another potshot Dave?:rolleyes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/10/friendly-fire-incident-in_n_111972.html

Nine British troops have been injured in a "friendly fire" incident in Helmand, Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed. A UK Apache helicopter opened fire on troops from 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment on Wednesday after they were "mistaken for the enemy".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-465751/Commander-accused-friendly-incident-left-British-soldiers-dead.html

A British tank crew who killed two Army colleagues with 'friendly fire' in Iraq were not told about a change to their firing boundaries, an inquest has heard.

Tyburn
07-26-2012, 09:05 PM
oh yes...we do it to :laugh:

But I do honnestly think in a room full of smoke, with a stunded population that doesnt know who, or how many are shooting...if others opened fire, there would definately be crossfire...those who arent armed are running, they could get in the way.

...some may not have even been aware after a couple of shots that it wasnt just part of the film if they were over the otherside...I dont know...its very, VERY easy to pretend that if we were in the situation we would know what to do and execute a plan of action which would work...but its a kinda phantasy that will never be prooved

As I said in my weekly video blog...this wasnt about gunlaws...this was really a case of, legal, or illegal, one mad person using a firearm to massicre as many as possible....no amount of gun laws will save you from that...and neither will any amount of concealed carry except circumstantially by those who rehash it like this in retrospect.

Neezar
07-27-2012, 12:30 PM
oh yes...we do it to :laugh:

But I do honnestly think in a room full of smoke, with a stunded population that doesnt know who, or how many are shooting...if others opened fire, there would definately be crossfire...those who arent armed are running, they could get in the way.

...some may not have even been aware after a couple of shots that it wasnt just part of the film if they were over the otherside...I dont know...its very, VERY easy to pretend that if we were in the situation we would know what to do and execute a plan of action which would work...but its a kinda phantasy that will never be prooved

As I said in my weekly video blog...this wasnt about gunlaws...this was really a case of, legal, or illegal, one mad person using a firearm to massicre as many as possible....no amount of gun laws will save you from that...and neither will any amount of concealed carry except circumstantially by those who rehash it like this in retrospect.

On a side note: I read that the majority of mass murders are on antidepressants. :mellow:

PRShrek
07-27-2012, 01:43 PM
On a side note: I read that the majority of mass murders are on antidepressants. :mellow:

The standard rebuttal to that is Ďof course they were on meds, theyíre crazy!í but depression is not Ďshooting everyoneí crazy. This medication is for people who canít get out of bed, there are other medications for getting people off the ceiling, and the mass shooters are rarely people on those.

Interestingly, these antidepressants work by tampering with the chemistry of the brain. A close friend of mine tried these briefly and she said they helped her depression largely because they helped her to stop caring about other people. Without the constant need to consider the feelings of others she was better able to sort out her own stuff. Imagine if her problem had been that caring about others was preventing her from shooting them all.

J.B.
07-28-2012, 04:23 AM
I gotta weigh in on this "crossfire" or "friendly fire" topic. It's a point that I am seeing brought up more and more when the discussion of gun control comes up after tragedies like this.

It's a flawed argument from the get-go, because typically people are running AWAY from the psycho who is shooting into a crowd, so it's much less likely that any bullets fired TOWARD the psycho in question are in danger of killing any innocents. Obviously it's not 100%, but what do you want? We ARE talking about a psycho (or psychos in the case of Columbine) shooting at people without prejudice.

Bonnie
07-28-2012, 09:51 PM
I gotta weigh in on this "crossfire" or "friendly fire" topic. It's a point that I am seeing brought up more and more when the discussion of gun control comes up after tragedies like this.

It's a flawed argument from the get-go, because typically people are running AWAY from the psycho who is shooting into a crowd, so it's much less likely that any bullets fired TOWARD the psycho in question are in danger of killing any innocents. Obviously it's not 100%, but what do you want? We ARE talking about a psycho (or psychos in the case of Columbine) shooting at people without prejudice.

From that article Neezy posted, we might need to worry more about friendly fire from policemen. Their shot to target percentage doesn't sound too good: :blink:



The third assumption is that if the victims just wait long enough, those still surviving will no longer be at risk once police finally arrive. This is simply not true. The national data for the effectiveness of police shooting indicates that police officers involved in gunfights actually connect with one out of thirteen rounds fired (on average; the studies vary in result, from about one in seven to as much as one in thirty, depending on which study one selects). These missed shots by police go somewhere, and injury to innocent bystanders is not uncommon. Conversely, the "hit rate" by legally armed citizens is one in two, much better odds indeed for the safety of innocent bystanders.

How is gun control going to stop people like this guy, a guy who on the surface appeared to be a normal law abiding citizen? People are the problem and you're never going to be able to control people.

Tyburn
07-29-2012, 08:10 AM
I gotta weigh in on this "crossfire" or "friendly fire" topic. It's a point that I am seeing brought up more and more when the discussion of gun control comes up after tragedies like this.

It's a flawed argument from the get-go, because typically people are running AWAY from the psycho who is shooting into a crowd, so it's much less likely that any bullets fired TOWARD the psycho in question are in danger of killing any innocents. Obviously it's not 100%, but what do you want? We ARE talking about a psycho (or psychos in the case of Columbine) shooting at people without prejudice.

Depends where the good guy is shooting from...If he's at the back of the auditorium, and the main shooter is at the front...then he will have to fire over/through a crowd heading towards him

Secondly...it depends how good visability is...the lights are off, the room is filled with gas...thats disorientating for the crowd who may not even know which direction the main shooter is shooting from...they may simply bolt, not knowing where their loved ones are, or which way is out...if they hear shots from behind them they will consider a second shooter and may even run towards the primary killer.

You may still have the film running really loudly in the background which could confuse you with sounds of firearm shots which are non existant off the screen, you might also find that there are other armed civilians, and even cinema employees that might consider you a hostile if they enter the auditorium after you and see you shooting from behind...how are they too know if you are shooting at a target, or if you ARE the primary shooter or an acoumplis

Usually I would consider crossfire...in the light of day, it just takes a reasonable gunfighter to be able to hit a target...but in the dark, with a room full of gas, where the primary target can not be seen, and an unpredictable crowd is going in all direction...would probably take a sniper, who could just watch and figure out what was going on...which takes the time you dont have.

I may know nothing about the mechanics of firearms....I may know nothing specific about the military either...but I know a fair amount about military strategy which from a purely theoretical point includes both...I thought it would be an easy modular option on my uni course...but it was far more difficult then I thought :laugh:

Mindue...if they took a risk assessment before they did anything, they'd never ever do anything in terms of real combat :laugh:

Perosnally...I'm very suprised there wasnt an armed civilian who at least tried...perhaps there are less people carrying firearms in America then I thought...Owning a gun isnt going to stop this sort of attack...coz you cant run home and collect it, its not good enough to be a hunter with some rifle nicely on the back seat of your car :ninja:

So a society having access to firearms isnt really part of the argument here. Its not the legal possession...its the ability to carry, permanently, firearms for imediate use vs a hostile who might have a firearm legally, or illegally...its kinda mute point that this one got his through legitatmate channels

TENNESSEAN
07-29-2012, 09:38 PM
A shooter in a dark smoke filled room is easy to spot.

adamt
07-30-2012, 12:17 PM
A shooter in a dark smoke filled room is easy to spot.

good point..... shoot at the muzzle flash.... even the people the reporters were interviewing were all talking about the muzzle flash....

J.B.
07-30-2012, 03:13 PM
Depends where the good guy is shooting from...If he's at the back of the auditorium, and the main shooter is at the front...then he will have to fire over/through a crowd heading towards him

Secondly...it depends how good visability is...the lights are off, the room is filled with gas...thats disorientating for the crowd who may not even know which direction the main shooter is shooting from...they may simply bolt, not knowing where their loved ones are, or which way is out...if they hear shots from behind them they will consider a second shooter and may even run towards the primary killer.

You may still have the film running really loudly in the background which could confuse you with sounds of firearm shots which are non existant off the screen, you might also find that there are other armed civilians, and even cinema employees that might consider you a hostile if they enter the auditorium after you and see you shooting from behind...how are they too know if you are shooting at a target, or if you ARE the primary shooter or an acoumplis

Usually I would consider crossfire...in the light of day, it just takes a reasonable gunfighter to be able to hit a target...but in the dark, with a room full of gas, where the primary target can not be seen, and an unpredictable crowd is going in all direction...would probably take a sniper, who could just watch and figure out what was going on...which takes the time you dont have.

I may know nothing about the mechanics of firearms....I may know nothing specific about the military either...but I know a fair amount about military strategy which from a purely theoretical point includes both...I thought it would be an easy modular option on my uni course...but it was far more difficult then I thought :laugh:

Mindue...if they took a risk assessment before they did anything, they'd never ever do anything in terms of real combat :laugh:

Perosnally...I'm very suprised there wasnt an armed civilian who at least tried...perhaps there are less people carrying firearms in America then I thought...Owning a gun isnt going to stop this sort of attack...coz you cant run home and collect it, its not good enough to be a hunter with some rifle nicely on the back seat of your car :ninja:

So a society having access to firearms isnt really part of the argument here. Its not the legal possession...its the ability to carry, permanently, firearms for imediate use vs a hostile who might have a firearm legally, or illegally...its kinda mute point that this one got his through legitatmate channels


Dave, Dave, Dave... :laugh:

The point is that no matter where the psycho is shooting from, he needs to be taken out. I never said that "owning a gun will stop this" kind of nonsense.

You don't KNOW how he actually got those guns, and even if it was 100% legal that does'nt mean jack squat! The dude is obviously CRAZY! We don't stop selling Big Mac's because people have a fat ass. Are we not supposed to have some self control? Isn't that a part of the free will God gave us?

Neezar
07-30-2012, 03:18 PM
Dave, Dave, Dave... :laugh:

The point is that no matter where the psycho is shooting from, he needs to be taken out. I never said that "owning a gun will stop this" kind of nonsense.

You don't KNOW how he actually got those guns, and even if it was 100% legal that does'nt mean jack squat! The dude is obviously CRAZY! We don't stop selling Big Mac's because people have a fat ass. Are we not supposed to have some self control? Isn't that a part of the free will God gave us?

Excellent point. :laugh:

J.B.
07-30-2012, 03:29 PM
Excellent point. :laugh:

I was trying to be blunt, like a baseball bat to the face. I'm glad somebody got the message! :laugh:

Bonnie
07-30-2012, 03:31 PM
Dave, Dave, Dave... :laugh:

The point is that no matter where the psycho is shooting from, he needs to be taken out. I never said that "owning a gun will stop this" kind of nonsense.

You don't KNOW how he actually got those guns, and even if it was 100% legal that does'nt mean jack squat! The dude is obviously CRAZY! We don't stop selling Big Mac's because people have a fat ass. Are we not supposed to have some self control? Isn't that a part of the free will God gave us?

Excellent point. :laugh:

At first, I thought you had posted that Denise! :laugh: That got my Monday started off right with a laugh, thanks, JB. :laugh:

J.B.
07-30-2012, 03:42 PM
At first, I thought you had posted that Denise! :laugh: That got my Monday started off right with a laugh, thanks, JB. :laugh:

Anytime. I'm always here to help! :wink:

MattHughesRocks
08-01-2012, 02:28 AM
What? No one has posted in this thread all day? :huh:







:laugh:

VCURamFan
08-01-2012, 01:47 PM
What? No one has posted in this thread all day? :huh:







:laugh:
It's been nearly twelve hours, why hasn't anyone argued about something in here???? :frantics:

adamt
08-01-2012, 04:10 PM
What? No one has posted in this thread all day? :huh:







:laugh:

:stirthepot:




i'll bite though






imagine this:

a guy walks into a crowded movie theater and opens fire, then someone courageously stands up and yells "hey, it's ILLEGAL to murder people!"

then the psycho says, oh, it's illegal? sorry....









or imagine this:

we make it illegal to make, use, own, possess, or distribute meth, coke, or heroin...... then that should stop our drug problem, cause obviously everyone would honor that law



and lastly, i think we should make it illegal to come here illegally, that would stop all the illegal aliens from being here illegally