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Vizion
02-12-2012, 11:26 PM
***I'm not sure what I think about this case, I agree with the guy in what he says, but do understand the situation can be somewhat touchy.***


Minnesota city councilman has a Confederate flag hanging outside his home and says he's not taking it down, no matter what people say.

"It's my house," West St. Paul Councilman Ed Hansen told the Pioneer Press. "What's the problem?"

Plenty, according to the city's mayor, John Zanmiller. The flag, visible from a busy avenue and to visitors at a nearby park, also has the word "redneck" written across it.

"I don't like it," Zanmiller said. "Do I wish the flag wasn't there? Yes."

While the mayor acknowledged he is not aware of any complaints made to the city, he reached out to Hansen on Friday about taking it down. Hansen declined, and Zanmiller acknowledged the decision is ultimately Hansen's.


Ed Hansen

Hansen, a first-term councilman elected in 2010, told the Pioneer Press he put the flag outside his house over the summer to no complaints. He said being an elected official should not matter one way or another.

"It represents sovereignty, individual rights and individual liberty," he told the newspaper. "It's my free speech, and that's my choice."

He dismissed any racist connotation the flag carries.

"I'm not a racist, and I don't think it's racist," he said. "People like to play the race card, though, when they don't get their way."

Jay Brunn, a developer who's building a house next to Hansen's, claimed the flag caused one prospective buyer to shy away.

When informed of that, Hansen told the Pioneer Press: "Good. I don't want him for a neighbor then. If people choose to be ignorant, that's their own fault. They should study history. It represents true sovereignty."


http://news.yahoo.com/minn-city-councilman-defends-confederate-flag-outside-home-154818571.html

Pastor Chris F
02-13-2012, 02:41 AM
To many people are poorly educated and very ignorant on the Confederate flag. He has every right to fly it at his home. In fact, I think any person with southern heritage should fly it no matter what job or what state they are in.

rearnakedchoke
02-13-2012, 01:35 PM
sure he has a right to fly it ... and sure, many people are probably uneducated on the flag .. but it doesn't help that the flag is used by a large number of different white supremecist groups and white separist groups in their logos ... so some people aren't doing a good job of helping with the view of what the flag stands for ..

County Mike
02-13-2012, 02:29 PM
If Mexican Americans can fly a Mexican flag and German Americans can fly a German flag and every other native of a different country can fly their flag, then a southern American can fly the confederate flag. It's only about pride in where you came from. Anyone who thinks differently is mistaken and needs to shut up.

If he had some racist remark written beneath the flag, then I could understand asking him to remove the racist remark. The flag though, should stay.

Bella79
02-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Here we freakin' go................:rolleyes:

Pastor Chris F
02-13-2012, 05:18 PM
sure he has a right to fly it ... and sure, many people are probably uneducated on the flag .. but it doesn't help that the flag is used by a large number of different white supremecist groups and white separist groups in their logos ... so some people aren't doing a good job of helping with the view of what the flag stands for ..

This is actually a Hollywood myth. The KKK have it written in their rules the American flag and Christian flag are the only flags allowed. The Neo-Nazi's prefer a swastika, some un-affiliated hate group use the flag but they also use the American and Christian flags and I doubt anyone would say those are racist. It is simple ignorance. The NAACP told a lie for decades and people started believing it. In fact on of the NAACP leaders later fought back and now marches around the country righting this wrong and educating the ignorant.

Play The Man
02-13-2012, 05:37 PM
This is actually a Hollywood myth. The KKK have it written in their rules the American flag and Christian flag are the only flags allowed. The Neo-Nazi's prefer a swastika, some un-affiliated hate group use the flag but they also use the American and Christian flags and I doubt anyone would say those are racist. It is simple ignorance. The NAACP told a lie for decades and people started believing it. In fact on of the NAACP leaders later fought back and now marches around the country righting this wrong and educating the ignorant.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1dphz4bCd1oAP7M5SOUKUYh9Das8T8 HLe92rKd1qyiMbH5K5Ayg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSMaznAmIGKiAvUmULLQjGlhUAthnLD4 2EgxEPQAR7G9YgG4y1fGg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRuTgrTHHAObbOSBTn13PL6fTB94xVBL WEWTB7c4qQ7wyX5uBxx

Hollywood didn't create these pictures. They were taken at parades, demonstrations, etc.

rearnakedchoke
02-13-2012, 05:53 PM
This is actually a Hollywood myth. The KKK have it written in their rules the American flag and Christian flag are the only flags allowed. The Neo-Nazi's prefer a swastika, some un-affiliated hate group use the flag but they also use the American and Christian flags and I doubt anyone would say those are racist. It is simple ignorance. The NAACP told a lie for decades and people started believing it. In fact on of the NAACP leaders later fought back and now marches around the country righting this wrong and educating the ignorant.

well .. i am just telling how i see it ... being canadian, i didn't study much american history .. but they way history it is easy to see how people can get preconceived notions of the flag ... of course the civil war was fought to preserve the union, but the north also used the abolishment of slavery as one of the things they were fighting for ... whether or not that was one of the reasons, and whether or not the south was trying to preserve slavery .. the outcomes fell as they did ... so you have a flag that people wave that in history books are associated with slavery ...

on another note, i think this guy is just trying to get his name in the paper .. if enough of his constituents write him asking him to take it down .. he should .. and fly an american flag

flo
02-13-2012, 06:51 PM
To many people are poorly educated and very ignorant on the Confederate flag. He has every right to fly it at his home. In fact, I think any person with southern heritage should fly it no matter what job or what state they are in.

I agree with this. But to be honest, you never see the Confederate flag displayed here in the Pacific Northwest because - right or wrong - it *is* perceived as racist here. I have a close friend in Arkansas and she says it's just the opposite in her area.

flo
02-13-2012, 06:54 PM
sure he has a right to fly it ... and sure, many people are probably uneducated on the flag .. but it doesn't help that the flag is used by a large number of different white supremecist groups and white separist groups in their logos ... so some people aren't doing a good job of helping with the view of what the flag stands for ..

Good point, rnc.

The swastika wasn't controversial either until Hitler took it to symbolize his Nazi party.

Pastor Chris F
02-13-2012, 08:37 PM
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1dphz4bCd1oAP7M5SOUKUYh9Das8T8 HLe92rKd1qyiMbH5K5Ayg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSMaznAmIGKiAvUmULLQjGlhUAthnLD4 2EgxEPQAR7G9YgG4y1fGg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRuTgrTHHAObbOSBTn13PL6fTB94xVBL WEWTB7c4qQ7wyX5uBxx

Hollywood didn't create these pictures. They were taken at parades, demonstrations, etc.

Then these guys were violating their oaths and more than likely were no sanctioned by the Klan. When I was writing my Masters thesis in history on race relations I researched this stuff for a couple of years and spoke with former and current Klansman and neo nazis. I can easily Google images off the internet showing the American flag in a parade does that make the flag racist? All you are doing it propagating the minority and attempting to make it a majority. This is a sever statesman argument. I am sure you can look into the Klan and see for yourself. The highest number of Klansmen are not even Southern. In fact Indiana and Illinois combined have more than the entire South. It is just ignorance. The Battle flag is nothing more than a symbol of heritage for the Southern people. Hollywood aka media with the help of the NAACP has perpetuated a lie and have fooled many people.

Pastor Chris F
02-13-2012, 08:46 PM
well .. i am just telling how i see it ... being canadian, i didn't study much american history .. but they way history it is easy to see how people can get preconceived notions of the flag ... of course the civil war was fought to preserve the union, but the north also used the abolishment of slavery as one of the things they were fighting for ... whether or not that was one of the reasons, and whether or not the south was trying to preserve slavery .. the outcomes fell as they did ... so you have a flag that people wave that in history books are associated with slavery ...

on another note, i think this guy is just trying to get his name in the paper .. if enough of his constituents write him asking him to take it down .. he should .. and fly an american flag

1- The flag the flew over slave ships and slavery for 200 years was Old Glory not the Union Jack.

2- Slavery was not an issue for the CW till 1863. The war was started over taxation. The South paid 80% of the nations taxes and the North was getting off the hook and charging the South more money to take their goods in New England states. So S. Carolina left and 12 others soon followed.

3- The flag got associated with black and slavery in the 1960's when Northern states like Indiana had a huge increase of racial tension and used the flag in their rallies against civil rights. Some other groups in Alabama and Georgia later did as well but the groups leadership prohibited it in the late 60's.



As most everyone know I got my Masters degree in History and my focus is in 19th century Southern history. I have spent the last 9 years studying, researching and writing about this very topic. I have even spoke on the subject in State congressional hearings and for other groups. I am far from an expert on it but I sure know more then the average citizen and most newspaper writers

Pastor Chris F
02-13-2012, 08:48 PM
I agree with this. But to be honest, you never see the Confederate flag displayed here in the Pacific Northwest because - right or wrong - it *is* perceived as racist here. I have a close friend in Arkansas and she says it's just the opposite in her area.

Yeah it is pretty common in Arkansas. However I know some area of Oregon and lower Washington that would disagree with you. But you are very right it is a minority issue there. :) The PNW does not like outsiders and for the most part not to many rednecks moved out that way.

TENNESSEAN
02-14-2012, 12:34 AM
This is actually a Hollywood myth. The KKK have it written in their rules the American flag and Christian flag are the only flags allowed. The Neo-Nazi's prefer a swastika, some un-affiliated hate group use the flag but they also use the American and Christian flags and I doubt anyone would say those are racist. It is simple ignorance. The NAACP told a lie for decades and people started believing it. In fact on of the NAACP leaders later fought back and now marches around the country righting this wrong and educating the ignorant.

Head on down to Pulaski, Tennessee during their big rally. I guess most of them illiterates cant read the bylaws. the klan waves the confederate flag very openly. They have ruined a proud symbol of the south.

I drove by a kkk grand wizards house for yrs on my way to work every day. guess what he had flying in front of his house? yep, stars and bars.

I personally have know several klan members all of their memorabilia has the confederate flag on it in some way. i don't know if its in their rules to not use the flag or not, (I really dont care) but they clearly do.

I have nothing against the flag, Im proud to be from the south. Ill never wave that flag or allow it in my house. I have made employees take off caps and change shirts because of the flag.

Fact is the their use of the flag makes people question if your a racist or not. I hope no one ever has to question that about me.

All that being said the guy has every right to fly what ever flag he wishes. If folks dont like it, shut up and dont vote for him next term. Ain't America great?!?!

flo
02-14-2012, 01:08 AM
Head on down to Pulaski, Tennessee during their big rally. I guess most of them illiterates cant read the bylaws. the klan waves the confederate flag very openly. They have ruined a proud symbol of the south.
I drove by a kkk grand wizards house for yrs on my way to work every day. guess what he had flying in front of his house? yep, stars and bars.

I personally have know several klan members all of their memorabilia has the confederate flag on it in some way. i don't know if its in their rules to not use the flag or not, (I really dont care) but they clearly do.

I have nothing against the flag, Im proud to be from the south. Ill never wave that flag or allow it in my house. I have made employees take off caps and change shirts because of the flag.

Fact is the their use of the flag makes people question if your a racist or not. I hope no one ever has to question that about me.

All that being said the guy has every right to fly what ever flag he wishes. If folks dont like it, shut up and dont vote for him next term. Ain't America great?!?!

Well said, Tennessean, well said.

rearnakedchoke
02-14-2012, 01:29 AM
1- The flag the flew over slave ships and slavery for 200 years was Old Glory not the Union Jack.

2- Slavery was not an issue for the CW till 1863. The war was started over taxation. The South paid 80% of the nations taxes and the North was getting off the hook and charging the South more money to take their goods in New England states. So S. Carolina left and 12 others soon followed.

3- The flag got associated with black and slavery in the 1960's when Northern states like Indiana had a huge increase of racial tension and used the flag in their rallies against civil rights. Some other groups in Alabama and Georgia later did as well but the groups leadership prohibited it in the late 60's.



As most everyone know I got my Masters degree in History and my focus is in 19th century Southern history. I have spent the last 9 years studying, researching and writing about this very topic. I have even spoke on the subject in State congressional hearings and for other groups. I am far from an expert on it but I sure know more then the average citizen and most newspaper writers

problem is, not everyone has a masters in this stuff, so they are going to believe what they see .... images like what ptm posted are hard to ignore

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 02:26 AM
Head on down to Pulaski, Tennessee during their big rally. I guess most of them illiterates cant read the bylaws. the klan waves the confederate flag very openly. They have ruined a proud symbol of the south.

I drove by a kkk grand wizards house for yrs on my way to work every day. guess what he had flying in front of his house? yep, stars and bars.

I personally have know several klan members all of their memorabilia has the confederate flag on it in some way. i don't know if its in their rules to not use the flag or not, (I really dont care) but they clearly do.

I have nothing against the flag, Im proud to be from the south. Ill never wave that flag or allow it in my house. I have made employees take off caps and change shirts because of the flag.

Fact is the their use of the flag makes people question if your a racist or not. I hope no one ever has to question that about me.

All that being said the guy has every right to fly what ever flag he wishes. If folks dont like it, shut up and dont vote for him next term. Ain't America great?!?!

stars and bars is not the confederate battle flag, but rather the 1 st national flag. But see your point. But as far as telling someone to not wave it or wear is wrong. If the American flag is allowed than no should discriminate for any other flag.

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 02:28 AM
problem is, not everyone has a masters in this stuff, so they are going to believe what they see .... images like what ptm posted are hard to ignore

Should we go around banning and complaining about everything one does not understand? Isn't that what racism really is, is ignorance of what one does not understand that we are all created equal. But I see your point as well.

TENNESSEAN
02-14-2012, 02:39 AM
problem is, not everyone has a masters in this stuff, so they are going to believe what they see .... images like what ptm posted are hard to ignore

Pretty confidedent the first and last pics where taken in Pulaski. I would bet the second one is too.

TENNESSEAN
02-14-2012, 02:56 AM
stars and bars is not the confederate battle flag, but rather the 1 st national flag. But see your point. But as far as telling someone to not wave it or wear is wrong. If the American flag is allowed than no should discriminate for any other flag.

In the south stars and bars is the confederate flag and nothing else. No one representing me will ever be aloud to wear the confederate flag. If that's wrong so be it. Im going to log out now. I got a feeling your gonna piss me off... AGAIN!!!

rearnakedchoke
02-14-2012, 12:54 PM
Should we go around banning and complaining about everything one does not understand? Isn't that what racism really is, is ignorance of what one does not understand that we are all created equal. But I see your point as well.

no, but the people who claim the flag is heritage, not hatred aren't doing themselves any favours when guys like klansmen and neo-nazis wave the flags at their ralley's .... i get your point, so i am not trying to disagree with you, its just that perception has a big effect on people ... i am not as against it as tennessean ... i actually like the design of it .. maybe cuz i grew up watching dukes of hazzard

twinsmama
02-14-2012, 01:44 PM
There are plenty of rebel flags down here. If you talk to the person that has it (on their truck, on the flag pole, or anywhere else) you can tell if they know what it means or not. If they don't understand it then they are flying it out of stupidity but i don't think that should be stopped. people do things out of stupidity all the time and we can't make them stop. the best we can do is engage in a conversation and educate them. my mom wore a shirt saying LOL (someone gave her). I asked what it meant and she didn't know:laugh: but she was wearing it proud:laugh: i educated her and she changed her shirt. I wouldn't care if someone had a KKK flag flying as long as they don't care what I fly. Our flag poles proudly fly an American Flag and a Confederate Flag. We live in the boonies so no one even sees them but we don't fly them for other people.

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 04:35 PM
In the south stars and bars is the confederate flag and nothing else. No one representing me will ever be aloud to wear the confederate flag. If that's wrong so be it. Im going to log out now. I got a feeling your gonna piss me off... AGAIN!!!

For someone who lives in the South I am shocked at your ignorance on the flag. The stars and bars is the first national not the battle flag and I dare you to go to one of those southern heritage sites and try to tell them they are not southern because they know the stars and bars is not the same thing as the battle flag. Do a simple Google search or even go to Wikipedia and educate yourself on the issue before you continue you embarrass yourself and your southern heritage and further.

As for not having anyone represent you who flies the flag well that is what is great about America you have such prerogative. However, that in and of itself is no more different then not letting a black man or a person of faith lead you. It is prejudice and thanks for admitting you are such a prejudice person. :)

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 04:42 PM
no, but the people who claim the flag is heritage, not hatred aren't doing themselves any favours when guys like klansmen and neo-nazis wave the flags at their ralley's .... i get your point, so i am not trying to disagree with you, its just that perception has a big effect on people ... i am not as against it as tennessean ... i actually like the design of it .. maybe cuz i grew up watching dukes of hazzard

saddly it happens. But to dismiss it would be like people of faith throwing out the bible because TV preachers mis-use it and most Christians sit and let them do it. This is why there are so many groups out there educating people on the truth. There are a lot of prejudice people like Tennessean who do not know the truth and who do not understand the real meaning of the flag. The flag is merely a symbol and if they start banning one then they take another then another so on and so on. So prejudice should be stopped at whatever form it takes. :) DYK when the new movie came out the NAACP picketed the showing because of the General Lee having the flag. The Dukes of Hazzard is a good example of it used in proper context. However if you ever watch Walker Texas Ranger you will notice every Redneck bar or motorcycle rebel has a CSA battle flag. This is what I mean by Hollywood stereotype that is dead wrong.

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 04:45 PM
There are plenty of rebel flags down here. If you talk to the person that has it (on their truck, on the flag pole, or anywhere else) you can tell if they know what it means or not. If they don't understand it then they are flying it out of stupidity but i don't think that should be stopped. people do things out of stupidity all the time and we can't make them stop. the best we can do is engage in a conversation and educate them. my mom wore a shirt saying LOL (someone gave her). I asked what it meant and she didn't know:laugh: but she was wearing it proud:laugh: i educated her and she changed her shirt. I wouldn't care if someone had a KKK flag flying as long as they don't care what I fly. Our flag poles proudly fly an American Flag and a Confederate Flag. We live in the boonies so no one even sees them but we don't fly them for other people.

Exactly!!!!! Isn't this the entire point. Freedom of expression. In California where lived, more people had Mexican flags than American flags. But people were not told to take them down. But one day a kid had a Rebel flag on his truck and was suspended from school. He won in a lawsuit and flew it till graduation but the point is if one comes down they all should so just let people fly what they want to.

Bella79
02-14-2012, 05:19 PM
Why don't everyone just sthu and fly what you want to fly. If you are considered racist who gives a rats tail. People are so sensitive over everything. Gee the Mexican flag offends so let me retaliate and fly a German flag.. GTFOH.

rockdawg21
02-14-2012, 06:39 PM
I have always hated this argument. It got really stupid when the new Dukes of Hazzard movie came out and they didn't put the flag on the General Lee.

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 07:56 PM
Why don't everyone just sthu and fly what you want to fly. If you are considered racist who gives a rats tail. People are so sensitive over everything. Gee the Mexican flag offends so let me retaliate and fly a German flag.. GTFOH.

Exactly- No flag should offend the rationale person

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 07:57 PM
I have always hated this argument. It got really stupid when the new Dukes of Hazzard movie came out and they didn't put the flag on the General Lee.

Sadly every Black history month it seems to get brought back up. Whatever happen to letting thing go and let people make their own choices.

rearnakedchoke
02-14-2012, 09:01 PM
I have always hated this argument. It got really stupid when the new Dukes of Hazzard movie came out and they didn't put the flag on the General Lee.

i thought they did put it on there and they got called bigots and racists when they went to the university ... or did they imply that it was there and not actually show it?

Play The Man
02-14-2012, 09:25 PM
For someone who lives in the South I am shocked at your ignorance on the flag. The stars and bars is the first national not the battle flag and I dare you to go to one of those southern heritage sites and try to tell them they are not southern because they know the stars and bars is not the same thing as the battle flag. Do a simple Google search or even go to Wikipedia and educate yourself on the issue before you continue you embarrass yourself and your southern heritage and further.

As for not having anyone represent you who flies the flag well that is what is great about America you have such prerogative. However, that in and of itself is no more different then not letting a black man or a person of faith lead you. It is prejudice and thanks for admitting you are such a prejudice person. :)

Why do you have to be so condescending to him? He referred to it as a "proud symbol of the South". The fact is, it has been tarnished by racist elements. That fact cannot be denied. Blacks and others are legitimately upset.

Pastor Chris F
02-14-2012, 09:51 PM
Why do you have to be so condescending to him? He referred to it as a "proud symbol of the South". The fact is, it has been tarnished by racist elements. That fact cannot be denied. Blacks and others are legitimately upset.

PTM I was not be condescending in the least. I was simpy correcting his misunderstanding. If I wanted to be condescending I could have been. I have no animosty towards him at all. It is not his fault he is misinformed on the issue.

As for the blacks and others being "legitimately" upset that is horse poo. The have no reason to be upset. The KKK use the American flag should they demand they stop using old glory? It was the flag that flew over slave ships should demand it stop waving over DC? Just as I pointed out earlier just because TV preachers misuse the Bible does not make the bible wrong. Just because some idiot white trash piece of dung uses the battle flag does not make it racists. That is misplacing the blame on the flag not the person. Should gays be blamed for every storm because there is a rainbow? See the foolishness in that line of reasoning. It is a flag and nothing more. People should be able to fly it without the thought they are somehow racist.

Play The Man
02-14-2012, 10:46 PM
PTM I was not be condescending in the least. I was simpy correcting his misunderstanding. If I wanted to be condescending I could have been. I have no animosty towards him at all. It is not his fault he is misinformed on the issue.

As for the blacks and others being "legitimately" upset that is horse poo. The have no reason to be upset. The KKK use the American flag should they demand they stop using old glory? It was the flag that flew over slave ships should demand it stop waving over DC? Just as I pointed out earlier just because TV preachers misuse the Bible does not make the bible wrong. Just because some idiot white trash piece of dung uses the battle flag does not make it racists. That is misplacing the blame on the flag not the person. Should gays be blamed for every storm because there is a rainbow? See the foolishness in that line of reasoning. It is a flag and nothing more. People should be able to fly it without the thought they are somehow racist.

The use of prejudice and ignorance mixed with the smiley face smacks of passive-aggression.

Pastor Chris F
02-15-2012, 05:06 AM
The use of prejudice and ignorance mixed with the smiley face smacks of passive-aggression.

Sorry I do not subscribe to pseudo-science psycho-babble. The internet is impersonal so anyone trying to say how one person feels is an exercise in futility. No one can say for sure based on the written word alone how a person feels. The English language is not inflected. I just happen to get a kick out of smiley faces nothing more. :)

Tyburn
02-15-2012, 03:51 PM
***I'm not sure what I think about this case, I agree with the guy in what he says, but do understand the situation can be somewhat touchy.***


Minnesota city councilman has a Confederate flag hanging outside his home and says he's not taking it down, no matter what people say.

"It's my house," West St. Paul Councilman Ed Hansen told the Pioneer Press. "What's the problem?"

Plenty, according to the city's mayor, John Zanmiller. The flag, visible from a busy avenue and to visitors at a nearby park, also has the word "redneck" written across it.

"I don't like it," Zanmiller said. "Do I wish the flag wasn't there? Yes."

While the mayor acknowledged he is not aware of any complaints made to the city, he reached out to Hansen on Friday about taking it down. Hansen declined, and Zanmiller acknowledged the decision is ultimately Hansen's.


Ed Hansen

Hansen, a first-term councilman elected in 2010, told the Pioneer Press he put the flag outside his house over the summer to no complaints. He said being an elected official should not matter one way or another.

"It represents sovereignty, individual rights and individual liberty," he told the newspaper. "It's my free speech, and that's my choice."

He dismissed any racist connotation the flag carries.

"I'm not a racist, and I don't think it's racist," he said. "People like to play the race card, though, when they don't get their way."

Jay Brunn, a developer who's building a house next to Hansen's, claimed the flag caused one prospective buyer to shy away.

When informed of that, Hansen told the Pioneer Press: "Good. I don't want him for a neighbor then. If people choose to be ignorant, that's their own fault. They should study history. It represents true sovereignty."


http://news.yahoo.com/minn-city-councilman-defends-confederate-flag-outside-home-154818571.html

In England...even if you OWN the property completely, you are not allowed to display flags without gaining council planning permission. This includes your Garden also.

Let me tell you now, thatalmost always they will say yes to the errection of a flag pole..BUT you are only allowed to fly non national flags. The only National Flags you can fly HAVE to be part of the Union.

This means, for example, if I wanted to put up a flag pole in my back garden and display my American Standard, the local Government would first issue me with finnancial penalties, and then if I didnt pay they would have council contractors remove the flag by force and take me to court for the payments.

So...in England, the Mayor would most definately not just be able to ensure the flag vanished, but lay financial penalties, file court action...and keep the flag for himself.

Big Business I believe may either pay for the pleasure, or more probably have a liscence to fly other flags. For example, the Harrogate International Conference Centre flies an American Standard and a heap of European Standards. The other Exception is in the case of Funding. For example, as I show in the video below, sometimes a business can be funded by the European Union...it is then an absolute stipulation that they fly the European Standard...whether thats classed as a National Standard or not I suppose is up for debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCBI1jkqOg

Pastor Chris F
02-15-2012, 04:00 PM
In England...even if you OWN the property completely, you are not allowed to display flags without gaining council planning permission. This includes your Garden also.

Let me tell you now, thatalmost always they will say yes to the errection of a flag pole..BUT you are only allowed to fly non national flags. The only National Flags you can fly HAVE to be part of the Union.

This means, for example, if I wanted to put up a flag pole in my back garden and display my American Standard, the local Government would first issue me with finnancial penalties, and then if I didnt pay they would have council contractors remove the flag by force and take me to court for the payments.

So...in England, the Mayor would most definately not just be able to ensure the flag vanished, but lay financial penalties, file court action...and keep the flag for himself.

This is the exact lack of freedom we are heading for with the central government slowly taking more and more power. The people are suppose to rule not the government in DC.

rearnakedchoke
02-15-2012, 04:14 PM
This is the exact lack of freedom we are heading for with the central government slowly taking more and more power. The people are suppose to rule not the government in DC.

that is why this guy probably won't be a councilman after the next elections ... democracy at its finest!!!

Tyburn
02-15-2012, 04:22 PM
This is the exact lack of freedom we are heading for with the central government slowly taking more and more power. The people are suppose to rule not the government in DC.

Its funny...because its not a lack of freedom, so much as being picky over stupid things...for example, they dont care about you landscaping your Garden, putting up fences, planting trees...but you try flying the flag of a country which is on good terms with us...or you have one to many bags of litter...and they go overboard on restrictions...its very silly.

The irony is that I dont need planning permission for an Avery...but I would for a flag pole...and yet I dont for a sky satelite dish...I mean...its mindless beurecratic idiocy.

The reason I can get away with my avery is because they classed the shed as a non significant structure, which means I can make alterations to the shed without asking them...so long as the avery doesnt go above the roof height of the roof of the shed about 6feet, and so long as it doesnt touch the wall of the house. I can do whatever I want...and yes...that means I could cover the entire garden with it, if I wanted to...

but if I even thought about flying my American Standard...:mellow:

:laugh: Fear not...I wouldnt want to keep my American Standard outside...it might get damaged by the elements...:unsure-1: and its the only one I have got...so I hang it on the wall in the vestuble, opposite the coat pegs...everyone will see it through the big window in the door, its safe where I can keep an eye on it...and the council cant touch me :laugh:

J.B.
02-15-2012, 04:50 PM
***I'm not sure what I think about this case, I agree with the guy in what he says, but do understand the situation can be somewhat touchy.***


Minnesota city councilman has a Confederate flag hanging outside his home and says he's not taking it down, no matter what people say.


He's an idiot.

If you wanna be a politician, you better become an expert in the art of manipulation on the highest level. Acting like a holier than thou racist won't help your cause, especially in 2012....:laugh:

Neezar
02-15-2012, 05:59 PM
that is why this guy probably won't be a councilman after the next elections ... democracy at its finest!!!

And that is the way it should be. If the man isn't concerned with offending the people then he is in the wrong line of work.

Tyburn
02-15-2012, 06:01 PM
And that is the way it should be. If the man isn't concerned with offending the people then he is in the wrong line of work.

She's Right.

Piss off the Politicians, you could claim constructive dismissal

Piss off the people...and you're finished

:laugh:

Neezar
02-15-2012, 06:02 PM
When I went to high school kids wearing Ozzy tshirts had to turn them inside out. All the while the parking lot was full of pick up trucks with confederate flags flying.

On a side note, quite a few of those pick ups had rifles on the gun rack in the back windows, too.

Times they are changing. I miss back when....:laugh:

Neezar
02-15-2012, 06:05 PM
As for not having anyone represent you who flies the flag well that is what is great about America you have such prerogative. However, that in and of itself is no more different then not letting a black man or a person of faith lead you. It is prejudice and thanks for admitting you are such a prejudice person. :)

That is by far the stupidest remark that I have ever read from you.

That isn't prejudice. That is good business.

And any politician should be extra careful in not let anything close to him represent something that is offensive to the people.

It really doesn't matter about the flag's history. What matters is what it represents today whether that developed out of ignorance or not.

Neezar
02-15-2012, 06:13 PM
Having a flag doesn't make someone a racist. I'm proud of my southern heritage but I don't have to fly a flag to prove it.

I would never fly a flag or wear a shirt that might hurt or make someone else feel belittled. Why would you? The only logical reason that I can come up with is to make a statement. You have to take responsibility for that statement. Your personal intentions really don't matter when you make a public statement you have to accept public perception.

J.B.
02-15-2012, 09:15 PM
When I went to high school kids wearing Ozzy tshirts had to turn them inside out.

I graduated in 2000, and when I was in high school it was Marilyn Manson t-shirts that frightened the staff, especially after Columbine.

It was like...."Oh, Ozzy Osbourne? You mean that guy that bit the head off of a bat and snorted a line of ants?"....:ninja:

:w00t: "OHHHH! I love that guy! Black Sabbath RULES DUDE!!! Just don't wear the shirt of that other Manson guy", (even though Ozzy actually paid Manson to be a part of Ozzfest numerous times). :rolleyes: :laugh:

Pastor Chris F
02-16-2012, 05:00 AM
That is by far the stupidest remark that I have ever read from you.

That isn't prejudice. That is good business.

And any politician should be extra careful in not let anything close to him represent something that is offensive to the people.

It really doesn't matter about the flag's history. What matters is what it represents today whether that developed out of ignorance or not.

Then you need to look up the word prejudice than Neezer. But let me spell it out for you and make sure you read it slow enough to understand. If any one does something with a predetermined opinion or out of ignorance it is prejudice. To say anything else is asinine and foolishness.

But lets use your logic for a second. The bible offends many people and some even feel belittled by it. So by your logic you hide your Christianity and your bible so as not to offend.

Second point in your logic. You say history does not matter only how it is seen today. Well the Bible is seen as a book of lies, a book of violence agaist women etc etc. This is how some represent it and it is a minority mind you. But if we use your logic then nobody should dare have a bible in a public place especially if they are in politics.

So can you see how ignorant and stupid your argument is. It is people who think like you that allows us to loose more and more of our freedoms every year because you let culture and media think for you. Well good luck with that. :angry:

Neezar
02-16-2012, 11:27 AM
Then you need to look up the word prejudice than Neezer. But let me spell it out for you and make sure you read it slow enough to understand. If any one does something with a predetermined opinion or out of ignorance it is prejudice. To say anything else is asinine and foolishness.

But lets use your logic for a second. The bible offends many people and some even feel belittled by it. So by your logic you hide your Christianity and your bible so as not to offend.

Second point in your logic. You say history does not matter only how it is seen today. Well the Bible is seen as a book of lies, a book of violence agaist women etc etc. This is how some represent it and it is a minority mind you. But if we use your logic then nobody should dare have a bible in a public place especially if they are in politics.

So can you see how ignorant and stupid your argument is. It is people who think like you that allows us to loose more and more of our freedoms every year because you let culture and media think for you. Well good luck with that. :angry:

I thought that you didn't know the meaning of prejudice and was referring to his not letting his employees wear anything with the confederat flag on it. :laugh:

And you are being silly.

If the people worship the flag then by all means, I think they should fly 2 or 3 of them. :laugh:

And it wasn't my logic it was common sense. You can't offend people you expect to vote for you.

PRShrek
02-16-2012, 01:55 PM
1 Corinthians 10
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

Romans 14
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

twinsmama
02-16-2012, 04:59 PM
Then you need to look up the word prejudice than Neezer. But let me spell it out for you and make sure you read it slow enough to understand. If any one does something with a predetermined opinion or out of ignorance it is prejudice. To say anything else is asinine and foolishness.

But lets use your logic for a second. The bible offends many people and some even feel belittled by it. So by your logic you hide your Christianity and your bible so as not to offend.

Second point in your logic. You say history does not matter only how it is seen today. Well the Bible is seen as a book of lies, a book of violence agaist women etc etc. This is how some represent it and it is a minority mind you. But if we use your logic then nobody should dare have a bible in a public place especially if they are in politics.

So can you see how ignorant and stupid your argument is. It is people who think like you that allows us to loose more and more of our freedoms every year because you let culture and media think for you. Well good luck with that. :angry:


that's as far as I got. I can't stand to hear you act like everyone else is so stupid. You may have a good argument but I can't stand to read how you treat people.

I have a business and although I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the confederate flag I would approach it the same was as Tenn. I am in the business to make money and I try not to offend anyone. I wouldn't let a confederate flag be posted in my work place, scripture or anything else that is not neutral. I have a successful business but it still depends on my reputation. Even an ignorant person going around spreading untruths about me could hurt my income. I can do whatever I want at work but I'm smart enough to know exactly what Neezer said. When you make a public statement you must accept public preception.

County Mike
02-16-2012, 05:08 PM
that's as far as I got. I can't stand to hear you act like everyone else is so stupid. You may have a good argument but I can't stand to read how you treat people.

I have a business and although I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the confederate flag I would approach it the same was as Tenn. I am in the business to make money and I try not to offend anyone. I wouldn't let a confederate flag be posted in my work place, scripture or anything else that is not neutral. I have a successful business but it still depends on my reputation. Even an ignorant person going around spreading untruths about me could hurt my income. I can do whatever I want at work but I'm smart enough to know exactly what Neezer said. When you make a public statement you must accept public preception.

+1

flo
02-16-2012, 05:39 PM
that's as far as I got. I can't stand to hear you act like everyone else is so stupid. You may have a good argument but I can't stand to read how you treat people.

I have a business and although I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the confederate flag I would approach it the same was as Tenn. I am in the business to make money and I try not to offend anyone. I wouldn't let a confederate flag be posted in my work place, scripture or anything else that is not neutral. I have a successful business but it still depends on my reputation. Even an ignorant person going around spreading untruths about me could hurt my income. I can do whatever I want at work but I'm smart enough to know exactly what Neezer said. When you make a public statement you must accept public preception.

+2

rearnakedchoke
02-16-2012, 05:44 PM
The Pastor's approach may not be the best .. but we know what we get with him and he ain't gonna change ... i honestly find myself agreeing more with his argument .. if you look at my earlier posts, sure, i was on the other side, but i see where he comes from ... if you stop standing up for what you believe in, or worry about other peoples perceptions, you get stomped all over and it's all downhill from there ..

Bella79
02-16-2012, 05:45 PM
The Pastor's approach may not be the best .. but we know what we get with him and he ain't gonna change ... i honestly find myself agreeing more with his argument .. if you look at my earlier posts, sure, i was on the other side, but i see where he comes from ... if you stop standing up for what you believe in, or worry about other peoples perceptions, you get stomped all over and it's all downhill from there ..

+1!!!!!!!!

VCURamFan
02-16-2012, 05:54 PM
that's as far as I got. I can't stand to hear you act like everyone else is so stupid. You may have a good argument but I can't stand to read how you treat people.

I have a business and although I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the confederate flag I would approach it the same was as Tenn. I am in the business to make money and I try not to offend anyone. I wouldn't let a confederate flag be posted in my work place, scripture or anything else that is not neutral. I have a successful business but it still depends on my reputation. Even an ignorant person going around spreading untruths about me could hurt my income. I can do whatever I want at work but I'm smart enough to know exactly what Neezer said. When you make a public statement you must accept public preception.
Preach on, Mama!

County Mike
02-16-2012, 06:30 PM
Many times I agree with what Chris F is saying. I just disagree with the way he says it.

Neezar
02-16-2012, 07:58 PM
The Pastor's approach may not be the best .. but we know what we get with him and he ain't gonna change ... i honestly find myself agreeing more with his argument .. if you look at my earlier posts, sure, i was on the other side, but i see where he comes from ... if you stop standing up for what you believe in, or worry about other peoples perceptions, you get stomped all over and it's all downhill from there ..

:rolleyes:

Worrying about other people's perceptions has nothing to do with standing up for what you believe in.

Neezar
02-16-2012, 08:00 PM
The Pastor's approach may not be the best .. but we know what we get with him and he ain't gonna change ... i honestly find myself agreeing more with his argument .. if you look at my earlier posts, sure, i was on the other side, but i see where he comes from ... if you stop standing up for what you believe in, or worry about other peoples perceptions, you get stomped all over and it's all downhill from there ..

btw, Out of curiousity, what do you think he is standing up for in flying that flag?

Neezar
02-16-2012, 08:15 PM
To many people are poorly educated and very ignorant on the Confederate flag. He has every right to fly it at his home. In fact, I think any person with southern heritage should fly it no matter what job or what state they are in.

No one should have to fly a flag to show that they are proud of their heritage.

The Battle flag is nothing more than a symbol of heritage for the Southern people.

I don't care what that flag symbolized in the 1860's or in the 1960's, today it most commonly symbolizes racism.

rearnakedchoke
02-16-2012, 08:53 PM
btw, Out of curiousity, what do you think he is standing up for in flying that flag?

fine .. i agree with you :huh:

Neezar
02-16-2012, 09:09 PM
fine .. i agree with you :huh:


:laugh:

I like you, rnc. You make me smile a lot. :)

Pastor Chris F
02-16-2012, 11:10 PM
I thought that you didn't know the meaning of prejudice and was referring to his not letting his employees wear anything with the confederat flag on it. :laugh:

And you are being silly.

If the people worship the flag then by all means, I think they should fly 2 or 3 of them. :laugh:

And it wasn't my logic it was common sense. You can't offend people you expect to vote for you.

If he is dumb enough to not be political savvy enough to avoid things that will kepp him from election than that is his own dumb fault. But to not elect someone for flying the flag is just as prejudicial as not voting for someone who is black or a Chrsitian. That was my point with Tenn. As for an employee well it is his company so he can do whatever he wants as long as it is clear in an employee handbook and all flags are banned with the same fervor. Do discriminate is a constructional violation that has been upheld by the SCOTUS.

Pastor Chris F
02-16-2012, 11:18 PM
btw, Out of curiousity, what do you think he is standing up for in flying that flag?

I stand up for a person right not the flag per se. he flag to me personally is a symbol of historical pride and a flag of an occupied nation. As a historian I know the truth behind the flag so anytime someone spews ignorance on the subject or any other subject I respond. You should know that is just how I am. :) Sure I may not say with with warm and fuzzy feelings but at least I am willing to tell it like it is. And if someone can prove me wrong I accept it. 9-10 people do not prove me wrong they just complain about the way I said it. I can live with that.

As for the flag, I can careless how it is perceived by a minority. National pollsters did a poll several years ago and 76% of American polled said it did not represent racism to them. So when a minority lies about something to try a destroy it, I respond. That is all.

Pastor Chris F
02-16-2012, 11:20 PM
:rolleyes:

Worrying about other people's perceptions has nothing to do with standing up for what you believe in.

It has all to do with it. Where does it stop. It is a slippery slope. You give anyone an inch they will take a mile. :)

TENNESSEAN
02-17-2012, 01:25 AM
no, but the people who claim the flag is heritage, not hatred aren't doing themselves any favours when guys like klansmen and neo-nazis wave the flags at their ralley's .... i get your point, so i am not trying to disagree with you, its just that perception has a big effect on people ... i am not as against it as tennessean ... i actually like the design of it .. maybe cuz i grew up watching dukes of hazzard

Sorry, i may have left you with the wrong impression. I love the flag, but due to its missrepensitation and some personal experiances. i have chossen to seperate myself from it. Thats just me.

The Pastor's approach may not be the best .. but we know what we get with him and he ain't gonna change ... i honestly find myself agreeing more with his argument .. if you look at my earlier posts, sure, i was on the other side, but i see where he comes from ... if you stop standing up for what you believe in, or worry about other peoples perceptions, you get stomped all over and it's all downhill from there ..

except when it comes to racism. I have had long conversations with friends that are just as proud as me to be from the south. Go back and look at the pics PTM posted and put yourself in a black southern man or woman's shoes. They know that most folks that fly it are fine but they cant help but have some emotions rise when they see the flag because of those idiot hate groups.

rearnakedchoke
02-17-2012, 01:47 AM
Sorry, i may have left you with the wrong impression. I love the flag, but due to its missrepensitation and some personal experiances. i have chossen to seperate myself from it. Thats just me.



except when it comes to racism. I have had long conversations with friends that are just as proud as me to be from the south. Go back and look at the pics PTM posted and put yourself in a black southern man or woman's shoes. They know that most folks that fly it are fine but they cant help but have some emotions rise when they see the flag because of those idiot hate groups.

i totally hear ya boss .. but i if you go do a google search of kkk american flag, you get a whole bunch of pics of the klan waving american flags ... i am a person of colour and walked by a klan rally in SC as a teen and was called some funny names .. it didn't bother me, i thought these guys were the goofs for dressing like morons ... i understand your stance on it, and i am perfectly fine with it .. i think this coucilman is doing it for the wrong reasons and will probably be out of a job soon as he won't get re-elected ...

Pastor Chris F
02-17-2012, 03:43 AM
Sorry, i may have left you with the wrong impression. I love the flag, but due to its missrepensitation and some personal experiances. i have chossen to seperate myself from it. Thats just me.



except when it comes to racism. I have had long conversations with friends that are just as proud as me to be from the south. Go back and look at the pics PTM posted and put yourself in a black southern man or woman's shoes. They know that most folks that fly it are fine but they cant help but have some emotions rise when they see the flag because of those idiot hate groups.

Now that sir is a much more honest response and one I can respect. But think of it like this. Not sure on where you stand as a person of faith. But what if I sat back and let the ignorant agnostics and evolutionists take the bible from me because they have made it unpopular and divisive in the eyes of popular culture? If you love the flag or love anything you must be willing to stand up to "idiots" even if it is unpopular. God bless :)

Pastor Chris F
02-17-2012, 03:47 AM
i totally hear ya boss .. but i if you go do a google search of kkk american flag, you get a whole bunch of pics of the klan waving american flags ... i am a person of colour and walked by a klan rally in SC as a teen and was called some funny names .. it didn't bother me, i thought these guys were the goofs for dressing like morons ... i understand your stance on it, and i am perfectly fine with it .. i think this coucilman is doing it for the wrong reasons and will probably be out of a job soon as he won't get re-elected ...

Sadly man HATE is a horrible disease bred by ignorance and lack of respect. His (councilman) motives will be judged on election day. I never understood racism. Maybe because I grew up on the West Coast and was raised differently but I do not understand how anyone can think they are better simply because of skin pigment.

Neezar
02-17-2012, 12:15 PM
Now that sir is a much more honest response and one I can respect. But think of it like this. Not sure on where you stand as a person of faith. But what if I sat back and let the ignorant agnostics and evolutionists take the bible from me because they have made it unpopular and divisive in the eyes of popular culture? If you love the flag or love anything you must be willing to stand up to "idiots" even if it is unpopular. God bless :)

I wished you would stop comparing the bible to the confederate flag. The bible is something worthy of fighting for or standing up for. If you idolize that flag that much then I don't even think God would approve. :rolleyes:

Neezar
02-17-2012, 12:23 PM
I stand up for a person right not the flag per se.

No one is arguing that he should have the right to fly the flag. I'm just saying he is stupid for doing it in his position. :laugh:

And even people who know it's true meaning, when they see that flag there has to be some part of them that wonders at the true motive behind it.


I think this particular flag is a poor choice to represent just southern heritage because of it's controversy. Unless, of course, the flag and ALL that it now symbolizes is what you truly stand for.

Pastor Chris F
02-17-2012, 08:35 PM
I wished you would stop comparing the bible to the confederate flag. The bible is something worthy of fighting for or standing up for. If you idolize that flag that much then I don't even think God would approve. :rolleyes:

The bible has been just misrepresented and Christians have been equally lazy in defending. I think it is a great example and if you just didn't hate me so much you would probably see the point easier.

Pastor Chris F
02-17-2012, 08:37 PM
No one is arguing that he should have the right to fly the flag. I'm just saying he is stupid for doing it in his position. :laugh:

And even people who know it's true meaning, when they see that flag there has to be some part of them that wonders at the true motive behind it.


I think this particular flag is a poor choice to represent just southern heritage because of it's controversy. Unless, of course, the flag and ALL that it now symbolizes is what you truly stand for.

:laugh: If you believe that than you are sadly ignorant and have not read a single thing I posted in the last 5+ years. My guess is you claim to know the real meaning but really have no clue. By all means educate us and tell us the history behind the Union Jack.

Play The Man
02-17-2012, 11:06 PM
:laugh: If you believe that than you are sadly ignorant and have not read a single thing I posted in the last 5+ years. My guess is you claim to know the real meaning but really have no clue. By all means educate us and tell us the history behind the Union Jack.

Chris, numerous times throughout this thread, you have referred to others as ignorant. Based upon post #11 in this thread, as well as the post above, it is apparent to me that you are ignorant of the name, "Union Jack". In both posts, you seem to be referring to the Confederate flag when you use the name, "Union Jack". If not, both of your references to "Union Jack", do not make sense in the context you made them. Please have the intellectual honesty to admit that you were ignorant about the flag referred to by the name, "Union Jack".

Pastor Chris F
02-18-2012, 03:49 AM
Chris, numerous times throughout this thread, you have referred to others as ignorant. Based upon post #11 in this thread, as well as the post above, it is apparent to me that you are ignorant of the name, "Union Jack". In both posts, you seem to be referring to the Confederate flag when you use the name, "Union Jack". If not, both of your references to "Union Jack", do not make sense in the context you made them. Please have the intellectual honesty to admit that you were ignorant about the flag referred to by the name, "Union Jack".


Obviously you are IGNORANT on the history and origins of the CSA Battle flag. May I suggest you educate yourself on the issue before you accuse me of ignorance. :laugh: There are several well researched books on the subject. The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem by Coski is probably the most sincere and least biased. It sticks to the history and origin and does not play politics. As for a link to a little quirk. History is not something you can simply post a quirk. You must have primary source documentation and context. And the book is nearly 500 pages of proof and documentation so one would be foolish to say they know the history from a simple website or Wikipedia nugget. :laugh:

As for me calling anyone ignorant well it is not an insult. In fact it simply means a lack of knowledge on a subject. There are a great deal of subjects I am ignorant on. Computers, math, many sciences, pop culture. However History, political science, and Theology I am not.

Pastor Chris F
02-18-2012, 03:55 AM
BTW- the Union Jack is common for the historical period. It was used by several countries. It is based on the St Andrew cross (he was crucified on an X instead of the traditional T. The stars in the battle flag represent each state that left the Union. In fact if you look at Britian's flag you will see the Union Jacks influence. Also Australia and it is in Florida's state flag. So for PTM to say the Union Jack was not part of the history of the Confederate Battle flag is illogical and false. The South's use of the Union Jack was because of its link to St Andrews Cross and truly thought their mission was biblically inspired. That is the best quirk I can give but the 454 page book is more detailed and documented. :)

County Mike
02-18-2012, 12:15 PM
As for me calling anyone ignorant well it is not an insult. In fact it simply means a lack of knowledge on a subject. There are a great deal of subjects I am ignorant on. Computers, math, many sciences, pop culture, social interaction. However History, political science, and Theology I am not.

Fixed.

As I said before, most of what you say is accurate. HOW you say it could use some work.

Neezar
02-18-2012, 10:46 PM
:laugh: If you believe that than you are sadly ignorant and have not read a single thing I posted in the last 5+ years. My guess is you claim to know the real meaning but really have no clue. By all means educate us and tell us the history behind the Union Jack.

Why would I do that?

As I have stated I don't think the 'real meaning' ( as you call it, but what you really mean is it's 'original meaning') really has any bearing on this discussion. The heart of the matter is it's 'present meaning' or rather what it symbolizes today. That's my stance on the issue. :)


ps I can't fathom that you actually believe that I hate you. I was blindsided with that comment. :huh:

Pastor Chris F
02-21-2012, 09:17 PM
Why would I do that?

As I have stated I don't think the 'real meaning' ( as you call it, but what you really mean is it's 'original meaning') really has any bearing on this discussion. The heart of the matter is it's 'present meaning' or rather what it symbolizes today. That's my stance on the issue. :)


ps I can't fathom that you actually believe that I hate you. I was blindsided with that comment. :huh:

well the current meaning to a minority should have no bearing on the issue. The truth is and should never be subject to the whims and misrepresentation of a misguided and uninformed minority.

Pastor Chris F
02-21-2012, 09:19 PM
And hate was a bad choice of words. I think disdain would be more like it. You see my name on the post and you already dismiss anything I say because I typically am to blunt and direct. I do not think you are a person of hate at all and that was a horrible choice of words on my part. I think you would not even bother if you hated anyone. :)

Play The Man
02-21-2012, 10:54 PM
BTW- the Union Jack is common for the historical period. It was used by several countries. It is based on the St Andrew cross (he was crucified on an X instead of the traditional T. The stars in the battle flag represent each state that left the Union. In fact if you look at Britian's flag you will see the Union Jacks influence. Also Australia and it is in Florida's state flag. So for PTM to say the Union Jack was not part of the history of the Confederate Battle flag is illogical and false. The South's use of the Union Jack was because of its link to St Andrews Cross and truly thought their mission was biblically inspired. That is the best quirk I can give but the 454 page book is more detailed and documented. :)

Chris F, you still do not have the humility to admit you are wrong on a factual matter. The Confederate Flag incorporates St. Andrew's cross, as does the Union Jack (which is also made up of St. George's cross and St. Patrick's cross). Your posts are available for all to see. You erroneously equated the Union Jack with the Confederate Flag. The Union Jack is the flag of Great Britain. It has never been the name for the Confederate flag. Your post above tries to obfuscate your error. It doesn't address the point. If you can post a proof of the Confederate flag being called "The Union Jack", I will apologize.

I will give you some advice. It isn't kind but it is good and meant for your long term good and benefit. Please learn some humility. Admit when you are wrong. Learn some people skills. Temper your opinions and views. When you are against 99.9% of the population it should be a clue, that maybe, possibly you might be wrong. As I understand it, you are not employed in either history or theology. Why is that? Based upon your judgement and interactions with others, I think I know the answer. I know the prior sentence is not kind. Please sit down in a quiet room and take an inventory and address some of the things that multiple people have brought to your attention multiple times.

As mentioned, I will apologize if you can produce proof of the Confederate flag being called the Union Jack. Otherwise, I'm done interacting with you. It is a fool's errand.

rearnakedchoke
02-21-2012, 11:05 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s1600/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

VCURamFan
02-21-2012, 11:07 PM
http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

flo
02-22-2012, 01:05 AM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/popcorngif3.gif

Yoohoo, Bonnie! Popcorn's ready....

Vizion
02-22-2012, 04:29 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Guys, guys, guys ... no need to make personal assertions here. Stay on point.

Bonnie
02-22-2012, 06:38 AM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/popcorngif3.gif

Yoohoo, Bonnie! Popcorn's ready....

:laugh:

Pastor Chris F
02-22-2012, 08:22 PM
Chris F, you still do not have the humility to admit you are wrong on a factual matter. The Confederate Flag incorporates St. Andrew's cross, as does the Union Jack (which is also made up of St. George's cross and St. Patrick's cross). Your posts are available for all to see. You erroneously equated the Union Jack with the Confederate Flag. The Union Jack is the flag of Great Britain. It has never been the name for the Confederate flag. Your post above tries to obfuscate your error. It doesn't address the point. If you can post a proof of the Confederate flag being called "The Union Jack", I will apologize.

I will give you some advice. It isn't kind but it is good and meant for your long term good and benefit. Please learn some humility. Admit when you are wrong. Learn some people skills. Temper your opinions and views. When you are against 99.9% of the population it should be a clue, that maybe, possibly you might be wrong. As I understand it, you are not employed in either history or theology. Why is that? Based upon your judgement and interactions with others, I think I know the answer. I know the prior sentence is not kind. Please sit down in a quiet room and take an inventory and address some of the things that multiple people have brought to your attention multiple times.

As mentioned, I will apologize if you can produce proof of the Confederate flag being called the Union Jack. Otherwise, I'm done interacting with you. It is a fool's errand.



I never said it was called the Union Jack PTM. I said the history of the flag can be traced via the Union Jack and gave you a book that documents it. So if you lack the integrity to read the book and still feel the need to whine about it be my guest. But the FACT is the Battle flag of the CSA's historical roots can be traced through Britain and ultimately St Andrews cross. So unless you can prove otherwise you should apologize. :wink: As you have said my post are avaliable for all to see as is the link I gave. My comment was for Neezer to tell us the History by telling us about how it is connected to the Union Jack and so on. I think you misunderstood my comment and read your own opinions into the post and assumed I was calling it the Union Jack which would be wrong because as you pointed out it is a flag used by GB and as I pointed out inspired many more flags from that time. Arguing history with me is futile.

VCURamFan
02-22-2012, 08:27 PM
O snap!
http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-11-Eddie-Griffin.gif

Bella79
02-22-2012, 08:28 PM
I never said it was called the Union Jack PTM. I said the history of the flag can be traced via the Union Jack and gave you a book that documents it. So if you lack the integrity to read the book and still feel the need to whine about it be my guest. But the FACT is the Battle flag of the CSA's historical roots can be traced through Britain and ultimately St Andrews cross. So unless you can prove otherwise you should apologize. :wink: As you have said my post are avaliable for all to see as is the link I gave. My comment was for Neezer to tell us the History by telling us about how it is connected to the Union Jack and so on. I think you misunderstood my comment and read your own opinions into the post and assumed I was calling it the Union Jack which would be wrong because as you pointed out it is a flag used by GB and as I pointed out inspired many more flags from that time. Arguing history with me is futile.

Resistance is futile...................
Sorry I had to!! :wink:

flo
02-22-2012, 08:49 PM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/popcornfallon.gif

rearnakedchoke
02-22-2012, 09:08 PM
http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/9/8/2/8/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif

Pastor Chris F
02-22-2012, 09:15 PM
Resistance is futile...................
Sorry I had to!! :wink:

:laugh: it really is I am just as stubborn as any Borg. :) He will be assimilated.

Primadawn
02-23-2012, 12:53 PM
I never said it was called the Union Jack PTM. I said the history of the flag can be traced via the Union Jack and gave you a book that documents it. So if you lack the integrity to read the book and still feel the need to whine about it be my guest. But the FACT is the Battle flag of the CSA's historical roots can be traced through Britain and ultimately St Andrews cross. So unless you can prove otherwise you should apologize. :wink: As you have said my post are avaliable for all to see as is the link I gave. My comment was for Neezer to tell us the History by telling us about how it is connected to the Union Jack and so on. I think you misunderstood my comment and read your own opinions into the post and assumed I was calling it the Union Jack which would be wrong because as you pointed out it is a flag used by GB and as I pointed out inspired many more flags from that time. Arguing history with me is futile.


I read your post the same way PTM did. You said: "By all means educate us and tell us the history behind the Union Jack" when you had clearly been discussing the confederate flag, so why WOULDN'T we all think you were calling the confederate flag the Union Jack?
If you werent, you weren't, but don't tell PTM he read his own opinions into your post--your post was unclear. I don't think ANYONE would read that post and "get" that you were telling Neezy to tell the history of how the confederate flag is CONNECTED to the Union Jack. You said the history BEHIND the Union Jack.
PTM had a point, and instead of you saying, "Oh my bad, I didn't say that right. What I MEANT to say was...." you insist that PTM is wrong. Because you can't admit that you were. Lack of humility...I think PTM is spot on with that analysis.

Neezar
02-23-2012, 01:18 PM
That is exactly right. He used the term 'Union Jack' at the beginning of the thread in response to a post by rnc, too. And rnc was clearly referring to the confederate flag.


well .. i am just telling how i see it ... being canadian, i didn't study much american history .. but they way history it is easy to see how people can get preconceived notions of the flag ... of course the civil war was fought to preserve the union, but the north also used the abolishment of slavery as one of the things they were fighting for ... whether or not that was one of the reasons, and whether or not the south was trying to preserve slavery .. the outcomes fell as they did ... so you have a flag that people wave that in history books are associated with slavery ...

on another note, i think this guy is just trying to get his name in the paper .. if enough of his constituents write him asking him to take it down .. he should .. and fly an american flag

1- The flag the flew over slave ships and slavery for 200 years was Old Glory not the Union Jack.

2- Slavery was not an issue for the CW till 1863. The war was started over taxation. The South paid 80% of the nations taxes and the North was getting off the hook and charging the South more money to take their goods in New England states. So S. Carolina left and 12 others soon followed.

3- The flag got associated with black and slavery in the 1960's when Northern states like Indiana had a huge increase of racial tension and used the flag in their rallies against civil rights. Some other groups in Alabama and Georgia later did as well but the groups leadership prohibited it in the late 60's.



As most everyone know I got my Masters degree in History and my focus is in 19th century Southern history. I have spent the last 9 years studying, researching and writing about this very topic. I have even spoke on the subject in State congressional hearings and for other groups. I am far from an expert on it but I sure know more then the average citizen and most newspaper writers

rearnakedchoke
02-23-2012, 01:22 PM
everytime i am out ..
http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/godfather_part_3.jpg?w=604
they pull me back in!!

VCURamFan
02-23-2012, 01:50 PM
http://www.gossipbeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cameron-feeds-arod.gif

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 03:37 PM
everytime i am out ..
http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/godfather_part_3.jpg?w=604
they pull me back in!!

:laugh:

Neezar
02-23-2012, 04:39 PM
:laugh:

It's like a bad wreck. You can't look away! lol

flo
02-23-2012, 05:43 PM
everytime i am out ..
http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/godfather_part_3.jpg?w=604
they pull me back in!!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

me too! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XB1BENAUWo&feature=related)

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 06:01 PM
Not meaning to gang up on, Chris, but I also thought he was referring to the Confederate Flag as "Union Jack" when he talked about Old Glory and not the "Union Jack" being flown over slave ships, etc... I guess I'm not sure why Union Jack was ever mentioned in the first place unless it was an unintentional honest mistake to begin with. You know, when what you're meaning to say or write somehow comes out as something else. I know that has happened to me. :wink: I don't know if that is what happened (or why he wouldn't say so), but it would be understandable since he obviously had thoughts of flags in his head at the time. If it wasn't an honest error, why bring up the Union Jack? :unsure-1:

Here is just one link that talks about the different flags they went through and why and how they came up with the Battle Flag (which was square) which eventually became the Confederate Flag we know today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

For those who are interested in the Union Flag, the national flag of the United Kingdom aka the Union Jack:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack.html

Bella79
02-23-2012, 06:12 PM
Not meaning to gang up on, Chris, but I also thought he was referring to the Confederate Flag as "Union Jack" when he talked about Old Glory and not the "Union Jack" being flown over slave ships, etc... I guess I'm not sure why Union Jack was ever mentioned in the first place unless it was an unintentional honest mistake to begin with. You know, when what you're meaning to say or write somehow comes out as something else. I know that has happened to me. :wink: I don't know if that is what happened (or why he wouldn't say so), but it would be understandable since he obviously had thoughts of flags in his head at the time. If it wasn't an honest error, why bring up the Union Jack? :unsure-1:

Here is just one link that talks about the different flags they went through and why and how they came up with the Battle Flag (which was square) which eventually became the Confederate Flag we know it today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

For those who are interested in the Union Flag, the national flag of the United Kingdom aka the Union Jack:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack.html

In the usual MH forum tradition I shall derail this thread and announce I am getting the UK Union Jack tat'd on my wedding finger!!!!!! :laugh: Take some heat off this hot burner topic.!! I have never had so much education from flags ever!! I am going to close my eyes and try to get the battle, confederate, union flags out of my mind!! Or perhaps I should drive into LA and I can see the Mexican flag and forget it all. LOL..

VCURamFan
02-23-2012, 06:13 PM
In the usual MH forum tradition I shall derail this thread and announce I am getting the UK Union Jack tat'd on my wedding finger!!!!!! :laugh:
Dang it, where's Dave when you need him??? :laugh:

Bella79
02-23-2012, 06:15 PM
Dang it, where's Dave when you need him??? :laugh:

Seriously Dave would have created a video to educate us all about the 'Union Jack'.... I miss Tyburn! :cry:

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 06:23 PM
In the usual MH forum tradition I shall derail this thread and announce I am getting the UK Union Jack tat'd on my wedding finger!!!!!! :laugh: Take some heat off this hot burner topic.!! I have never had so much education from flags ever!! I am going to close my eyes and try to get the battle, confederate, union flags out of my mind!! Or perhaps I should drive into LA and I can see the Mexican flag and forget it all. LOL..

:laugh:

Primadawn
02-23-2012, 06:24 PM
A moment of silence, please. For Dave.

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 06:49 PM
A moment of silence, please. For Dave.

:laugh:

Pastor Chris F
02-23-2012, 07:30 PM
I read your post the same way PTM did. You said: "By all means educate us and tell us the history behind the Union Jack" when you had clearly been discussing the confederate flag, so why WOULDN'T we all think you were calling the confederate flag the Union Jack?
If you werent, you weren't, but don't tell PTM he read his own opinions into your post--your post was unclear. I don't think ANYONE would read that post and "get" that you were telling Neezy to tell the history of how the confederate flag is CONNECTED to the Union Jack. You said the history BEHIND the Union Jack.
PTM had a point, and instead of you saying, "Oh my bad, I didn't say that right. What I MEANT to say was...." you insist that PTM is wrong. Because you can't admit that you were. Lack of humility...I think PTM is spot on with that analysis.

Well I assumed PTM was educated enough to know the difference. I cannot help how one takes what I say. A forum is a poor venue to convey any real information in a quick burst. I assumed PTM knew better and assumed he was just being himself trying to stir the pot. The fact is I AM right and the history of the flag has not changed.

Pastor Chris F
02-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Not meaning to gang up on, Chris, but I also thought he was referring to the Confederate Flag as "Union Jack" when he talked about Old Glory and not the "Union Jack" being flown over slave ships, etc... I guess I'm not sure why Union Jack was ever mentioned in the first place unless it was an unintentional honest mistake to begin with. You know, when what you're meaning to say or write somehow comes out as something else. I know that has happened to me. :wink: I don't know if that is what happened (or why he wouldn't say so), but it would be understandable since he obviously had thoughts of flags in his head at the time. If it wasn't an honest error, why bring up the Union Jack? :unsure-1:

Here is just one link that talks about the different flags they went through and why and how they came up with the Battle Flag (which was square) which eventually became the Confederate Flag we know today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

For those who are interested in the Union Flag, the national flag of the United Kingdom aka the Union Jack:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack.html

I do not feel ganged up on at all Bonnie. I failed to articulate is a way people would understand. As I said in the previous post I assumed to much. I figured most people on here knew the GB flag was called the Union Jack and the CSA battle flag was simply birthed from it. I knew we had many from GB on the forum and was merely showing the connection that most people were unaware of. Frankly I do care less on it since I know the truth and that is all that matters. I can say the world is round and people on the MH Forum will swear up and down I am lying just because I posted it. I am used to it by know. :) God bless sister.

VCURamFan
02-23-2012, 07:46 PM
I do not feel ganged up on at all Bonnie. I failed to articulate is a way people would understand. As I said in the previous post I assumed to much. I figured most people on here knew the GB flag was called the Union Jack and the CSA battle flag was simply birthed from it. I knew we had many from GB on the forum and was merely showing the connection that most people were unaware of. Frankly I do care less on it since I know the truth and that is all that matters. I can say the world is round and people on the MH Forum will swear up and down I am lying just because I posted it. I am used to it by know. :) God bless sister.
http://i3.asn.im/Aww-poor-baby-_t3wr.gif
Awww, poor baby.

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 08:27 PM
I do not feel ganged up on at all Bonnie. I failed to articulate is a way people would understand. As I said in the previous post I assumed to much. I figured most people on here knew the GB flag was called the Union Jack and the CSA battle flag was simply birthed from it. I knew we had many from GB on the forum and was merely showing the connection that most people were unaware of. Frankly I do care less on it since I know the truth and that is all that matters. I can say the world is round and people on the MH Forum will swear up and down I am lying just because I posted it. I am used to it by know. :) God bless sister.

Yes, it's always possible for something to get lost in translation. :laugh: I didn't know anything about the British flag, the Union Jack, before this thread went sideways, so something positive came out of this "discussion". :laugh:

God bless, Chris. :)


http://i3.asn.im/Aww-poor-baby-_t3wr.gif
Awww, poor baby.

God bless you too, Benjamin! :laugh:

Bella79
02-23-2012, 08:42 PM
I do not feel ganged up on at all Bonnie. I failed to articulate is a way people would understand. As I said in the previous post I assumed to much. I figured most people on here knew the GB flag was called the Union Jack and the CSA battle flag was simply birthed from it. I knew we had many from GB on the forum and was merely showing the connection that most people were unaware of. Frankly I do care less on it since I know the truth and that is all that matters. I can say the world is round and people on the MH Forum will swear up and down I am lying just because I posted it. I am used to it by know. :) God bless sister.

You have a lot of truth and facts to your posts..
Your delivery method well could use work at times!:wink:

mntnbikerbw
02-23-2012, 08:55 PM
What's really interesting, and I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not (it's a long thread, but there's more than one flag of the confederacy.

http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/conflags.gif

I have no problem with someone displaying their heritage, I really don't, but I think that someone that's really proud to be from the south should baffle the masses with their choice of flag to display such pride.

What backlash would the UFC get if a white fighter came to the octagon with "White Pride" tattooed on his chest?

Later.

Bella79
02-23-2012, 09:49 PM
What's really interesting, and I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not (it's a long thread, but there's more than one flag of the confederacy.

http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/conflags.gif

I have no problem with someone displaying their heritage, I really don't, but I think that someone that's really proud to be from the south should baffle the masses with their choice of flag to display such pride.

What backlash would the UFC get if a white fighter came to the octagon with "White Pride" tattooed on his chest?

Later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEOAcuquRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

flo
02-23-2012, 10:42 PM
What backlash would the UFC get if a white fighter came to the octagon with "White Pride" tattooed on his chest?

Later.

Exactly.

Bonnie
02-23-2012, 10:47 PM
What's really interesting, and I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not (it's a long thread, but there's more than one flag of the confederacy.

http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/conflags.gif

That Bonnie Blue flag is nice. :Whistle:

:laugh:

I have no problem with someone displaying their heritage, I really don't, but I think that someone that's really proud to be from the south should baffle the masses with their choice of flag to display such pride.

What backlash would the UFC get if a white fighter came to the octagon with "White Pride" tattooed on his chest?

Later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEOAcuquRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I have to admit when I've seen Cain with his tatoo, the question Bill asked has gone thru my mind...if a fighter had "White Pride" emblazoned on his chest, what reaction would that get...what would be the first thoughts generated in people's minds. :wink:

On one of the flag sites I visited it talked about "symbolism", how different people view that particular flag in different ways and that's totally understandable. It is going to generate negative feelings in people. Same goes for tatoos like "White Pride" and "Brown Pride".

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 02:12 AM
http://i3.asn.im/Aww-poor-baby-_t3wr.gif
Awww, poor baby.

Thanks man I needed your symapthy I was starting to wonder if it was ever gonna come. :wink:

mntnbikerbw
02-24-2012, 02:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEOAcuquRo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I don't begrudge him the right to have the tattoo, and I really didn't need to hear the explanation to know that (in my opinion) Cain didn't have the tattoo with hate in mind.

I know the stereotypes that are associated with the term 'white pride', but for political correctness that term has to be subsituted with 'American Pride' or something to that effect.

Later.

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 02:16 AM
What's really interesting, and I don't know if this has been addressed yet or not (it's a long thread, but there's more than one flag of the confederacy.

http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/conflags.gif

I have no problem with someone displaying their heritage, I really don't, but I think that someone that's really proud to be from the south should baffle the masses with their choice of flag to display such pride.

What backlash would the UFC get if a white fighter came to the octagon with "White Pride" tattooed on his chest?

Later.

Yeah man and that is the tip of the iceberg too. There are about 40 various battle flags as well. But the battle flag was the flag that has been raped by hate groups and now people are more worried about being politically correct and less worried about being truthful and logical. Thanks for the post man. My favorite flag of the South would have to be Quantrill's Blag flag but since I have no clue how to post a pic of it I would encourage people to look up.

mntnbikerbw
02-24-2012, 02:21 AM
Yeah man and that is the tip of the iceberg too. There are about 40 various battle flags as well. But the battle flag was the flag that has been raped by hate groups and now people are more worried about being politically correct and less worried about being truthful and logical. Thanks for the post man. My favorite flag of the South would have to be Quantrill's Blag flag but since I have no clue how to post a pic of it I would encourage people to look up.
Is this it?

http://www.warstore.co.uk/ekmps/shops/marlina/images/quantrill-flag-american-civil-war-1547-p.jpg

Later.

mntnbikerbw
02-24-2012, 02:28 AM
What about this?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/425930_358009210900240_100000734911127_1152576_369 266887_n.jpg

Later.

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 03:22 AM
Is this it?

http://www.warstore.co.uk/ekmps/shops/marlina/images/quantrill-flag-american-civil-war-1547-p.jpg

Later.

Yep! Thanks

Primadawn
02-24-2012, 02:15 PM
1- The flag the flew over slave ships and slavery for 200 years was Old Glory not the Union Jack.

2- Slavery was not an issue for the CW till 1863. The war was started over taxation. The South paid 80% of the nations taxes and the North was getting off the hook and charging the South more money to take their goods in New England states. So S. Carolina left and 12 others soon followed.

3- The flag got associated with black and slavery in the 1960's when Northern states like Indiana had a huge increase of racial tension and used the flag in their rallies against civil rights. Some other groups in Alabama and Georgia later did as well but the groups leadership prohibited it in the late 60's.



As most everyone know I got my Masters degree in History and my focus is in 19th century Southern history. I have spent the last 9 years studying, researching and writing about this very topic. I have even spoke on the subject in State congressional hearings and for other groups. I am far from an expert on it but I sure know more then the average citizen and most newspaper writers

In this post early on, you also refer to it as the Union Jack, when the conversation was clearly about the confederate flag. At this point it's comic that you refuse to admit you just used the wrong term. I give up. :rolleyes:

Bella79
02-24-2012, 02:45 PM
In this post early on, you also refer to it as the Union Jack, when the conversation was clearly about the confederate flag. At this point it's comic that you refuse to admit you just used the wrong term. I give up. :rolleyes:

Same here girlfriend! :rolleyes: Seems like Religion and Politics bring out the best behavior in some.

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 07:46 PM
In this post early on, you also refer to it as the Union Jack, when the conversation was clearly about the confederate flag. At this point it's comic that you refuse to admit you just used the wrong term. I give up. :rolleyes:

If you read my comment to Bonnie you would see your comment here is incorect. I did in fact admit I failed to articulate properly. However that stemmed from my assumption that PTM, Neezer understood the difference and that I was referring to its history not the present. So by assuming I failed to properly convey my true intentions. This is a forum and it is real hard to say anything when you do not know the educational background or attainment of the people you were discussing it with. I knew PTM knew the difference he just inferred I called it that because I assumed he would be able to understand I was simply showing Neezer she had no clue on the Battle Flags history. As you said the conversation was clearly about the battle flag and my point was clearly about its history. SO needless to say wires were crossed.

If we really wanted to get technical the fact people are calling it the Confederate flag is indeed a misnomer. The Confederate flag is actually the Third National shown on Bills post of pictures. The Battle flag is refereed to as the Southern Cross or St Andrews cross in its proper historical context. So if we would like to split hairs then by all means lets stay semantically correct in all of it.

County Mike
02-24-2012, 08:01 PM
This would be the point in an argument where I resort to something like

"Suck a fat one!"


Mainly because the topic has become too boring to continue.

Bella79
02-24-2012, 08:09 PM
This would be the point in an argument where I resort to something like

"Suck a fat one!"


Mainly because the topic has become too boring to continue.

:funny:

VCURamFan
02-24-2012, 08:18 PM
This would be the point in an argument where I resort to something like

"Suck a fat one!"


Mainly because the topic has become too boring to continue.
This

Primadawn
02-24-2012, 08:46 PM
This would be the point in an argument where I resort to something like

"Suck a fat one!"


Mainly because the topic has become too boring to continue.

Yeah--this!!

rearnakedchoke
02-24-2012, 08:53 PM
nah, keep going pastor .. i am with you on this one ... so which is the flag that is on the top of the general lee in D of H?

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 09:39 PM
nah, keep going pastor .. i am with you on this one ... so which is the flag that is on the top of the general lee in D of H?

The Southern Cross AKA The Battle Flag and the one the hate groups ripped off. Even Larry the Cable guy took the flag off his hat. NASCAR has banned it from all reaceways. Frankly, Southern folk should just use the Third National as their heritage symbol since it was the last National flag used and the one that flew over their capitol. :)

This discussion has ran its course sure enough. Whenever it turns into a hair splitting exercise in futility no real fruit can come from it. I think everyone agrees however that people should have the right to wave it and that is what really matters.

Spiritwalker
02-24-2012, 09:50 PM
the same one that flew over Shuri Castle in Okinawa after the Battle of Okinawa .. but of course I know nothing...

I have been enjoying the fun though.

Bonnie
02-24-2012, 10:33 PM
the same one that flew over Shuri Castle in Okinawa after the Battle of Okinawa

I read that, but it said it was taken down after 3 days and replaced with the U.S. Flag.

After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate general Simon Buckner), who stated that it was inappropriate as "Americans from all over are involved in this battle". It was replaced with the flag of the United States. By the end of World War II, the use of the Confederate flag in the military was rare.

Pastor Chris F
02-24-2012, 10:53 PM
I read that, but it said it was taken down after 3 days and replaced with the U.S. Flag.

see I even learned something. I did not study much history after the Progressive era so I was unaware of this event. Thanks SW and Bonnie for posting.

Neezar
02-29-2012, 10:53 PM
I'm struggling not to jump in here again. :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
02-29-2012, 11:10 PM
I'm struggling not to jump in here again. :laugh:

if you came to learn something from the pastor, you have come to the right place ...

Neezar
03-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Like 'How to Never Admit You Were Wrong'?


:laugh:

Neezar
03-01-2012, 05:22 PM
In this post early on, you also refer to it as the Union Jack, when the conversation was clearly about the confederate flag. At this point it's comic that you refuse to admit you just used the wrong term. I give up. :rolleyes:

NOOOOooooo! :hissyfit:






:laugh:

Primadawn
03-01-2012, 07:37 PM
NOOOOooooo! :hissyfit:






:laugh:

:laugh:

Ok, forget it! Let's get this party started! :happydancing:

rearnakedchoke
03-01-2012, 07:44 PM
:laugh:

Ok, forget it! Let's get this party started! :happydancing:

i am down .. neezar, prima, can you explain why you both are wrong and pastor chris f is right???

flo
03-01-2012, 08:44 PM
i am down .. neezar, prima, can you explain why you both are wrong and pastor chris f is right???

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/TCKT/mixer.gif

VCURamFan
03-01-2012, 08:48 PM
i am down .. neezar, prima, can you explain why you both are wrong and pastor chris f is right???
http://i56.tinypic.com/2vjep05.jpg

Pastor Chris F
03-01-2012, 08:58 PM
When a cow turd is dry it does not stink and can be used for many good things. But as soon as someone kicks it and breaks that dry crust the stink is stirred back up and it is no longer as useful. I say let this cow turd lay there and not stink. :)

Neezar
03-01-2012, 09:04 PM
When a cow turd is dry it does not stink and can be used for many good things. But as soon as someone kicks it and breaks that dry crust the stink is stirred back up and it is no longer as useful. I say let this cow turd lay there and not stink. :)

Appropriate comparison there. :laugh:

Neezar
03-03-2012, 03:55 AM
Hello? :unsure-1:

Neezar
03-03-2012, 03:55 AM
:laugh:




Save Junie Browning!

TENNESSEAN
03-03-2012, 06:00 PM
When a cow turd is dry it does not stink and can be used for many good things. But as soon as someone kicks it and breaks that dry crust the stink is stirred back up and it is no longer as useful. I say let this cow turd lay there and not stink. :)

Chris you should research this topic better or at least do a simple google search on the topic before you come here and make such idiotic statements. Your ignorance of such a simple subject makes yourself look very foolish.

Cows produce pies not turds.

Please do us all a favor and research topics you obviously no nothing about. :)

TENNESSEAN
03-03-2012, 06:08 PM
But to keep things on a positive note. I can see how you have the same qualities as a cow pie.
You both stink under the crust and your both mostly BS.
very good post:)

Pastor Chris F
03-03-2012, 07:13 PM
Chris you should research this topic better or at least do a simple google search on the topic before you come here and make such idiotic statements. Your ignorance of such a simple subject makes yourself look very foolish.

Cows produce pies not turds.

Please do us all a favor and research topics you obviously no nothing about. :)

well maybe if you would get your head out of your hind quarters you would be intelligent enough to know that bovines actually produce dung you uneducated nit wit. So do us all a favor crawl back whatever rock you sorry behind came from and return and let the adults talk. If you want cast insults well be prepared to get them back you sorry piece of bovine dung. :)

Pastor Chris F
03-03-2012, 07:15 PM
But to keep things on a positive note. I can see how you have the same qualities as a cow pie.
You both stink under the crust and your both mostly BS.
very good post:)

No that was referring to sorry arguments like yours. They stink so bad they are better left to be used as manure than to stink up my truth. BANG!!!!!!! What was that, me laying some truth down for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Neezar
03-03-2012, 08:20 PM
:scared0015:

Pastor Chris F
03-03-2012, 08:41 PM
:scared0015:

it is your fault you know. You said of let it die :laugh: J/K it is all in good fun I did not take it personal and even if he meant it to be personal I can care less. This is a forum and we are here because we like the greatest WW in history not for the political and religious discussion. I find it rather humorous that anybody can spew so much hate at me and not know me from Adam. Have a good day Neezar. :)

TENNESSEAN
03-03-2012, 09:28 PM
Chris, why are you so upset? Im not upset at all. I was simply trying to educate you on something you obviously know nothing about. I even used language and tone that you understand because that's how you reply to everyone here. Sorry about the misunderstanding of your post. It seemed you were comparing yourself to cow pies. Sometimes these mix ups happen using text to communicate. Funny that's the same argument you use when you offend someone. I understand now. I even used the smiles like you.:)

flo
03-03-2012, 10:23 PM
Boys, boys! Can't you kiss and make up? Or at least fling a few cow pies at each other in solidarity?


:)

Pastor Chris F
03-04-2012, 02:32 AM
Chris, why are you so upset? Im not upset at all. I was simply trying to educate you on something you obviously know nothing about. I even used language and tone that you understand because that's how you reply to everyone here. Sorry about the misunderstanding of your post. It seemed you were comparing yourself to cow pies. Sometimes these mix ups happen using text to communicate. Funny that's the same argument you use when you offend someone. I understand now. I even used the smiles like you.:)

no offense taken. I can see how a person of your intellect would be so easily confused. I will try real hard to respect the educationally challenged and use words and pictures so you can understand next time. I have a thick skin and there is nothing you or anyone on this third rock from the sun can ever say or do that will offend me, except for remaining ignorant or murder the unborn. God bless :laugh:

Pastor Chris F
03-04-2012, 02:36 AM
Boys, boys! Can't you kiss and make up? Or at least fling a few cow pies at each other in solidarity?


:)

It is all in good fun flo. rhetorical jabs are for the most part harmless. And we are in the politic section and thus people will find something to whine about. But if he would like a more in depth education my PM box is always open. :) The best hope we can have is a MOD finally puts this topic to rest. It has long since left its original purpose. Cow pie vs turd has nothing to do with the battle flag of the CSA.

TENNESSEAN
03-04-2012, 02:46 AM
I may be an uneducated nit wit but I know a pile of BS when I see it.:)

Neezar
03-04-2012, 04:45 PM
Chris you should research this topic better or at least do a simple google search on the topic before you come here and make such idiotic statements. Your ignorance of such a simple subject makes yourself look very foolish.

Cows produce pies not turds.

Please do us all a favor and research topics you obviously no nothing about. :)

I want you on my team. :laugh:

Pastor Chris F
03-04-2012, 04:50 PM
I may be an uneducated nit wit but I know a pile of BS when I see it.:)

no doubt you see it every morning you look into the mirror. :wink:

TENNESSEAN
03-04-2012, 05:50 PM
"He who guards his lips guards his soul." (Proverbs 13:3)

Sometimes I have a real struggle with this verse. Everyone have a nice Sunday.

Primadawn
03-05-2012, 05:11 PM
Does anyone know what cow dung is called in Great Britain? :ninja:

County Mike
03-05-2012, 05:49 PM
Does anyone know what cow dung is called in Great Britain? :ninja:

Pate'

rockdawg21
03-05-2012, 06:58 PM
Does anyone know what cow dung is called in Great Britain? :ninja:
Frenchie

VCURamFan
03-05-2012, 07:30 PM
Frenchie
:happy0198: :happy0198: :happy0198: :happy0198:

Pastor Chris F
03-06-2012, 05:31 PM
Does anyone know what cow dung is called in Great Britain? :ninja:

:laugh: look at you stirring the pot. :laugh: But anyhow where is Dave when you need him

Primadawn
03-06-2012, 05:57 PM
:laugh: look at you stirring the pot. :laugh: But anyhow where is Dave when you need him


:wink:

I didn't want to let Neezy down! :laugh:

VCURamFan
03-06-2012, 05:58 PM
:laugh: look at you stirring the pot. :laugh: But anyhow where is Dave when you need him
He's supposed to be back Friday...:ninja:

TENNESSEAN
03-06-2012, 08:10 PM
Does anyone know what cow dung is called in Great Britain? :ninja:

I know what they don't call it! A cow turd.:laugh:

Pastor Chris F
03-06-2012, 09:19 PM
I know what they don't call it! A cow turd.:laugh:

Yeah I doubt it. I am sure they have a cute fancy name for it. Such as the one already mentioned here. Geez man let it go already. Have fun and chill out and stop being so serious. It is excrement for gosh sake. :wink:

TENNESSEAN
03-07-2012, 03:06 AM
Yeah I doubt it. I am sure they have a cute fancy name for it. Such as the one already mentioned here. Geez man let it go already. Have fun and chill out and stop being so serious. It is excrement for gosh sake. :wink:

I started an argument about cow pies and you think I'm serious? :laugh:

Primadawn
03-07-2012, 02:07 PM
I looked it up. According to Wiki, it England, they're called "cow pats". :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
03-07-2012, 03:19 PM
I looked it up. According to Wiki, it England, they're called "cow pats". :laugh:

funny, i thought they called them 'scots'

Pastor Chris F
03-07-2012, 05:14 PM
I started an argument about cow pies and you think I'm serious? :laugh:
Notice the wink man. I knew you were far from serious. It is and still is all in good fun

County Mike
03-07-2012, 05:34 PM
This whole thread is full of s..t.

Pastor Chris F
03-08-2012, 03:38 AM
This whole thread is full of s..t.

:laugh: just the last few pages but I thought we discovers it is pats now :laugh:

J.B.
03-08-2012, 04:43 PM
I was just going to post a big ol' dixie flag without even reading the thread....but then after I clicked on REPLY I had to scroll down and all I saw was talk about COWPIES....:laugh:

It reminded me of a story, when I was about 7 years old in the backwoods of Prospect TN in mid-summer. That was the first, and only, time I actually saw a pile of cow-s**t that was boiling in the sun. Yes, it was actually bubbling. Funny how that is actually a memory I cherish now that my dad has passed. Bubbling cow-pie....:laugh:

That is all....

Bonnie
03-09-2012, 02:03 AM
I was just going to post a big ol' dixie flag without even reading the thread....but then after I clicked on REPLY I had to scroll down and all I saw was talk about COWPIES....:laugh:

It reminded me of a story, when I was about 7 years old in the backwoods of Prospect TN in mid-summer. That was the first, and only, time I actually saw a pile of cow-s**t that was boiling in the sun. Yes, it was actually bubbling. Funny how that is actually a memory I cherish now that my dad has passed. Bubbling cow-pie....:laugh:

That is all....

That's a gift ya know, getting people to :laugh: and :cry: and :yuck: all at the same time! :laugh:

:wub: