PDA

View Full Version : PIPA and SOPA stopped!


rockdawg21
01-20-2012, 07:13 PM
We win! :happydancing:

http://news.yahoo.com/sopa-stopped-chief-sponsor-delays-action-indefinitely-182059946.html;_ylt=At0A4NLijTkdWrawZTh5nMus0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNsMmcwNGFvBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDYT A0ZjIxM2MtZTA3OC0zMTA5LWJmZjYtYTM2N2FlNDQxNmM5BHBv cwMxBHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2M0ZmM2MTA4LTQzOTUtMT FlMS1hMjU5LWJmYmUxMGVmODM2NA--;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ ylv=3

SOPA stopped: Chief sponsor delays action indefinitely

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/GxyyNifn1Yq6j6Ap3uUD3w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9Mjc-/http://media.zenfs.com/152/2011/07/27/digitaltrends-141x27_163114.jpg (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=11hj4cfi3/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/) By Andrew Couts | Digital Trends – 1 hr 32 mins ago

Immediately following Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s (D-NV) decision to postpone a full vote (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12q1lkr23/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/pipa-vote-canceled-by-sen-harry-reid/) on the “PROTECT IP Act” (PIPA), which was originally scheduled for Tuesday, Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX), chief sponsor of the “Stop Online Piracy Act” (SOPA), has announced that he will delay further consideration of the contentious anti-piracy bill in the House “until there is wider agreement on a solution.” Earlier this week, Smith said (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13shricve/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/computing/sopa-lives-rep-lamar-smith-to-resume-markup-hearings-in-february/) that he would resume markup hearings on SOPA by the House Judiciary Committee, of which he is chairman, in February.

The interruption of both bills follows Wednesday’s mass online blackout (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12nlv15d5/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/sopa-pipa-blackout-by-the-numbers/) held in protest of the companion anti-piracy bills.

“I have heard from the critics and I take seriously their concerns regarding proposed legislation to address the problem of online piracy,” said Smith in a statement (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=121623r2v/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//judiciary.house.gov/news/01202012.html). “It is clear that we need to revisit the approach on how best to address the problem of foreign thieves that steal and sell American inventions and products.”

This statement stands in stark contrast to Smith’s earlier remarks (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13oht1sgd/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/opinion/sopa-sponsor-rep-lamar-smith-to-sopa-opponents-you-dont-matter/) about the opposition to SOPA and PIPA, in which brushed off their warnings that the bills could put and end to the free and open Internet as we know it as illegitimate, and without merit.

“The problem of online piracy is too big to ignore,” Smith added. “American intellectual property industries provide 19 million high-paying jobs and account for more than 60 percent of U.S. exports. The theft of America’s intellectual property costs the U.S. economy more than $100 billion annually and results in the loss of thousands of American jobs. Congress cannot stand by and do nothing while American innovators and job creators are under attack.”

“The online theft of American intellectual property is no different than the theft of products from a store. It is illegal and the law should be enforced both in the store and online,” he said.

Prior to Wednesday’s blackout, which saw more than 75,000 websites “go black” in protest, SOPA and PIPA enjoyed the support of 80 members of Congress, while just 31 members stood in opposition to these bills. By Thursday, the balance of power shifted dramatically, with only 63 members in both houses of Congress in support of SOPA/PIPA, and 122 opposed, according to ProPublica (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=11o69g8r3/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//projects.propublica.org/sopa/).

While the delay of SOPA and PIPA is testament to the power of the opposition movement to sway Congress, it is also obvious that the fight is far from over. Both Sen. Reid and Rep. Smith have vowed to continue the fight against piracy, and could revive these bills — or others like them — at any time.

This article was originally posted on Digital Trends (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13b9q86od/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/sopa-stopped-chief-sponsor-delays-action-indefinitely/)

More from Digital Trends (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=11hj4cfi3/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/)

PIPA vote canceled by Sen. Harry Reid (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12q1lkr23/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/pipa-vote-canceled-by-sen-harry-reid/)

SOPA/PIPA blackout: By the numbers (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12nlv15d5/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/sopa-pipa-blackout-by-the-numbers/)

Sen. Marco Rubio drops support of PIPA, a bill he co-sponsored [Update: 2nd Sen. backs down] (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13iqjp56a/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/sen-marco-rubio-drops-support-of-pipa-a-bill-he-co-sponsored/)

January 18 SOPA/PIPA blackout: A quick guide (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=130q42u7h/EXP=1328299788/**http%3A//www.digitaltrends.com/web/january-18-sopapipa-blackout-a-quick-guide/)

flo
01-21-2012, 12:36 AM
We still have a voice in the political process. That's great!

Bonnie
01-21-2012, 02:49 AM
Let's hope this is permanent and not just "postponed". I like what the Rep. candidates said last night when asked about SOPA and PIPA...that we already have laws in place to protect copyrights, etc...

It really sounded like Hollywood was driving all this to me. If they need more protection against foreign piracy, and it's not covered by our current laws, then address that specifically. I saw former senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) on tv as the chief spokesperson for the movie lobby; apparently he's been lobbying hard for SOPA and PIPA.

January 20, 2012, Huff Post Politics - Chris Weigant: Friday Talking Points -- Out of Touch
Posted: 1/20/12 09:28 PM ET

"MOST DISAPPOINTING DEMOCRAT OF THE WEEK"

Which brings us to a big (Dis-)Honorable Mention for all the Democrats in Congress who are still supporting S.O.P.A. and P.I.P.A., two bills that would bring a chilling amount of censorship to the Internet. Pushed (naturally) by Hollywood, in their continuing crusade against online piracy, these bills would have allowed websites to be shut down without adequate legal due process, and both bills deserve an ignoble death.

Harry Reid announced today that he wouldn't even be bringing them up for a vote in the Senate, due to their sudden lack of popularity. This issue was spotlighted by major websites "going dark" this Wednesday, in one of the most far-reaching efforts Silicon Valley has ever made in the political arena. This powerful message worked. Obama came out against the bills, and co-sponsors (Democrat and Republican) started dropping their names from the bills left and right.

But some Democrats are still supporting these odious bills, because they really, really love Hollywood's money. Which is why they collectively get a (Dis-)Honorable Mention.

The Most Disappointing Democrat of the Week award, however, goes to a man we thought had gone beyond being considered for these awards. Chris Dodd used to be a senator, from Connecticut. He retired from the Senate when it became obvious he was not going to win re-election. On his way out, the Washington Post quoted him on the issue of what he was going to do next:

Sen. Chris Dodd says he still doesn't know what he'll do come January 2011, when, for the first time in 36 years, he will no longer be a member of Congress. But he has ruled out one option. "No lobbying, no lobbying," Dodd said in a recent interview.

In an interview with Salon, Dodd reiterated this stance, saying (quite specifically): "Who wants to be president of a trade association?"

So it might come as somewhat of a surprise that Chris Dodd is now the chief spokesman for the M.P.A.A. (the movie lobby). He's the one who has been lobbying his little heart out on Capitol Hill to get S.O.P.A. and P.I.P.A. passed. He's even issued dire warnings that Hollywood is not going to cough up campaign cash for Democrats who don't fall into line, as well.

Read the Salon article for the sordid details. And, lest we be misunderstood, Dodd is not being singled out for being a lobbyist pushing for a bad law, or even for threatening to withhold campaign donations if he doesn't get his way -- that's what lobbyists do, after all, and there certainly are more of them in Washington than you can shake a stick at. No, no, Dodd is just doing his (current) job the best he knows how, for which we don't fault him.

Chris Dodd wins the MDDOTW award for his hypocrisy. This is exactly the same thing we'd say about some politician who built his political career on attacks on gay rights, and who was then caught in a public bathroom with another man. It's not the action, it's the rank hypocrisy that deserves denouncing. Dodd tried to leave the Senate on the high road of decrying that messy, messy world of lobbying -- and how he was going to hold his head higher than that, and forego such despicable behavior. If he had then accepted a position at some prestigious university, we would have cheered him on for this stance.

Dodd didn't. Dodd lobbied, instead. Dodd prostituted himself, when he said he wasn't going to. Dodd doddered off into the sunset with a whole bunch of Hollywood movie money -- quite possibly the glitziest lobbying position in the entire country. Dodd left with holier-than-thou denunciations of lobbying, and look at him now.

For that -- and for that alone -- Chris Dodd wins our Most Disappointing Democrat of the Week award.

NateR
01-21-2012, 09:30 AM
It doesn't surprise me at all that a Democrat would be championing something like SOPA/PIPA. Back in the 1980s, Tipper Gore (wife of former Vice President Al Gore) led a massive book-banning crusade. In 1993, Joe Lieberman (running mate for Gore's unsuccessful run for President), pushed for the banning of violent video games.

Democrats have a history of supporting censorship, because they believe that the only people who should have freedom of speech are the ones one who only say the things that they agree with.

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 11:25 AM
Dont fool yourselves..This does NOT proove the populas have power.

It prooves that multinational coorperations still have the might to take on the United States Government.

They stopped because major online companies decided to expose this bill to a global market, rendering the Federal Republic culpable to the same condemnation as is given the Peoples Republic of China. The problem is that the United States is trying to shut down some of these websites alltogether, which effects people in other countries of the world. In effect, they are not just censoring for THEIR population, they are trying to govern the internet alltogether by closing multinational sites they dont approve of. That simply will not fly if it gets out...and if 75000 is anything to go by...it got out :laugh:

I hadnt figured though that companies like Wikipedia could act online in the same way as large retail companies like walmart or macdonalds.

Expect later in the year for the United States to come back with a different draft of a similar bill. perhaps this one really will focus on copyright and less on censorship though.

We shall see.

adamt
01-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Dont fool yourselves..This does NOT proove the populas have power.

It prooves that multinational coorperations still have the might to take on the United States Government.

They stopped because major online companies decided to expose this bill to a global market, rendering the Federal Republic culpable to the same condemnation as is given the Peoples Republic of China. The problem is that the United States is trying to shut down some of these websites alltogether, which effects people in other countries of the world. In effect, they are not just censoring for THEIR population, they are trying to govern the internet alltogether by closing multinational sites they dont approve of. That simply will not fly if it gets out...and if 75000 is anything to go by...it got out :laugh:

I hadnt figured though that companies like Wikipedia could act online in the same way as large retail companies like walmart or macdonalds.

Expect later in the year for the United States to come back with a different draft of a similar bill. perhaps this one really will focus on copyright and less on censorship though.

We shall see.

well, you have to keep in mind, that the government doesn't want the populus mad. they know what we did a couple hundred years ago when we were pushed too far. they have had a taste of the tea party. the one thing i take solace in, is that even though one city like chicago could completely nullify all of my state, iowa, in a popular vote, .... they have no necessary assetts such as land and they have no knowledge of survival, and i am pretty certain that they have very few guns. so the huge mega cities can dictate what they want to a certain extent, but when push comes to shove states in the midwest that may make up the minority still have the biggest stick in terms of audacity, food, land, and everything. and who knows they may have to test the limit some time.

it is scary though how ignorant so many people in america are anymore. i dare say the majority of the people are ignorant nowadays, thus we elected obama. but like i said already, i don't think they could do anything that the minority couldn't fix if we didn't have to based merely on a "bigger stick", in a sense they only do what they dare do....

i hope that made sense and didn't come across as a little bit militia whacko nonsense....

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 03:15 PM
1)well, you have to keep in mind, that the government doesn't want the populus mad. they know what we did a couple hundred years ago when we were pushed too far. they have had a taste of the tea party. the one thing i take solace in, is that even though one city like chicago could completely nullify all of my state, iowa, in a popular vote, .... they have no necessary assetts such as land and they have no knowledge of survival, and i am pretty certain that they have very few guns. so the huge mega cities can dictate what they want to a certain extent, but when push comes to shove states in the midwest that may make up the minority still have the biggest stick in terms of audacity, food, land, and everything. and who knows they may have to test the limit some time.

it is scary though how ignorant so many people in america are anymore. i dare say the majority of the people are ignorant nowadays, thus we elected obama. but like i said already, i don't think they could do anything that the minority couldn't fix if we didn't have to based merely on a "bigger stick", in a sense they only do what they dare do....

i hope that made sense and didn't come across as a little bit militia whacko nonsense....

1) You know, I hear a lot of talk of Revolution from Americans. However, I shall be absolutely honnest with you. I do not, in all honnesty, believe that enough Americans would dare stand against their Government to inact the kind of Revolution which would proove any more then roudy protests and possibly city riots.

This proove it for me.

When push comes to shove your Government would rather stand behind a President to keep face when more then enough of them had more then enough doubt to distroy Barack Obama over his unconstitutional health reform. Similarly, this bill which comes close to pushing Americans into an online world like that experienced by China did not have people reaching for their firearms at all.

The Governments had no populas to respond to except for words of dismay and condemnation. The Government responded to the Companies which have money and may or may not fund them in some way. They responded to companies who could and did threaten to air their dirty laundry to the entire world. They responded to the dissaproval of the International Community for the first time in their entire history :laugh: No President of a Western Democrasy wants to end up in the same boat as being likened to the Dictatorships of arab nations, or the pseudo-corrupted Communism of the far orient. But it wasnt just all that...it was the time. What fools of them to think of doing this in Presidential Ellection year. Do the Democrats have a death wish :huh: The Obama Administration is tottering on the verge of collapse and they launch a huge grab on the rights of their citizens which has more then 75000 international websites protesting against them world wide...and they would chance burrial of the entire party for all time. No. I dont think so. Voters would anihilate them...its too close to Time Gentlemen, to do this and hope that populas will have forgotten.

What I VERY much doubt is, that they worried about some type of rebellion from their citizenary. Without the kind of censorship which involves genocidal situations, I dont think America will ever have the sort of Revolution you are refering to again.

The way forward to reclaim your country is not through Rebellion, its through assertion of the control of your STATE Government in the face of the Union. Until you reclaim your States, you will never have power over a Union which has exceeded all expectations in size and strength. How you do that, I dont know, only because I dont know enough about the State Governments to figure a way to generate a coilition of States that wish, not to be Free from the Union, but wish the Union to recognise their right to Soverignty. Strikes me Washington believes it is the Only Government in the land. The State Government is NOT a Council...the Union is the Council...the State Governments are Fully Fledged Soverignties in their own right...read the declairation of Independance...and ask how many of those rights do the States have. May Illinois declaire war if it so wished? Is she free to do Trade with who she wishes...or is it so centralized she's considered a portion of land. Does she have boarder crossings? does she actually know who is in her land at any one time? (She doesnt...I should know...I walked back and forwards across the Quad City Bridge several times, just because I could :laugh: I first pointed this out when I was in the US for the first time and I was being driven to the airport in Missouri....and as we crossed a bridge I enquired about the procedure for entering a different state.

There isnt one. :blink:

If I had only one wish for the US, it would be a resurgence of what we in England call "localism" or "De-centralization" What you need in office is a President who will hand responsibilities BACK to the States. Who will treat Congress as a Council, NOT a Government. Congress was supposed to be the United Nations of the States...do you follow...its NOT supposed to be a Government, but a representation of a myriad Governments.

What has allowed this to happen in my opinion is the rise of your partisanship. I dont suppose half your population care which State they were born in, but I bet at least 80 percent would definately care about being classified as either Democrat or Republican. Thats how they have allowed you to abandon your individuality and be either One Thing, or Another Thing, in a Government of Two Halves. A true America should be full of Independants. Not alligned to a Unionized political group...but free thinkers applying the Consitution for their section as they see fit, and working with him and her next door for an international eventuality

Republican and Democrat should be different in each State because what a Republican in a landlocked area full of grass, and a Republican in a city by the sea, will have different focuses for their specific country. I say Country...because I believe truely that if your State Governments were recognised as being truely devolved from the Federal Government, rather then 50 caterpillers...we'd have 50 butterflies :laugh:

Sorry if anyone is offended by the above :unsure-1::ashamed: But it strikes me that most on this forum would aggree, less Federal, More State is good. :)

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 03:28 PM
I have made a point of replacing the word US with Federal Republic quite often to remind me what it should be.

Though I think really the Federal Union of America would be a better title because The Union is what Unites the States. Applying the word Republic just enforces the belief that Congress should be a Government, when really it should be a Council

I think drop the word Government all together, The United Federal Congress of Independant American States :laugh:

As in some states they arent even supposed to be a Republic are they. Werent some of the really old ones Commonwealths :laugh: I dont know...I'm just mulling things over in my head :)

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 04:16 PM
incidently have any of you heard about "Anonymous"

Some online pressure group which reacted to the US when she forced Megadownload into oblivion...by dismantling the Governments website for Justice :laugh:

flo
01-21-2012, 07:11 PM
Dont fool yourselves..This does NOT proove the populas have power.

It prooves that multinational coorperations still have the might to take on the United States Government.



incidently have any of you heard about "Anonymous"

Some online pressure group which reacted to the US when she forced Megadownload into oblivion...by dismantling the Governments website for Justice :laugh:

Oops, you just contradicted yourself, Tyburn. Besides, companies are made up of people. They aren't robots or dollar figures. People here have a real voice in government particularly when we are well-organized in contacting our representatives. I have seen legislation affected in this manner - by voters - time after time.

1)

What I VERY much doubt is, that they worried about some type of rebellion from their citizenary. Without the kind of censorship which involves genocidal situations, I dont think America will ever have the sort of Revolution you are refering to again.


I wouldn't be so sure. Several events have made me realize that we could indeed have a class or race rebellion. Obama has been somewhat successfully igniting passions towards both for 3 years.

1)

If I had only one wish for the US, it would be a resurgence of what we in England call "localism" or "De-centralization" What you need in office is a President who will hand responsibilities BACK to the States.

Now there's something with which we can agree! This is why the Tea Party got such momentum and won some important mid-term elections.

I disagree with you about partisanship. That has been around since the time of our Forefathers! Nothing much has changed. :laugh: I wish that there wasn't so much animosity in partisanship but there is; I'm just as guilty of it as anyone on the other side (most times). I'm not sure if you follow our polls but there are actually more moderates (or so-called independents) than conservatives or liberals. Apathy is more to blame for our current huge central government problems, IMO - but once the sleeping giant is awakened - watch out. One of the reasons so many people like Ron Paul is because he is a constructionist. Ditto the Tea Pary.

I can only speak for myself but I care very deeply about the state of my birth.

I'm not offended, it's interesting reading a foreigner's take on our exceptional country.

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 07:41 PM
1) Oops, you just contradicted yourself, Tyburn. Besides, companies are made up of people. They aren't robots or dollar figures. People here have a real voice in government particularly when we are well-organized in contacting our representatives. I have seen legislation affected in this manner - by voters - time after time.



2) I wouldn't be so sure. Several events have made me realize that we could indeed have a class or race rebellion. Obama has been somewhat successfully igniting passions towards both for 3 years.


3) Now there's something with which we can agree! This is why the Tea Party got such momentum and won some important mid-term elections.

4) I disagree with you about partisanship. That has been around since the time of our Forefathers! Nothing much has changed. :laugh: I wish that there wasn't so much animosity in partisanship but there is; I'm just as guilty of it as anyone on the other side (most times). I'm not sure if you follow our polls but there are actually more moderates (or so-called independents) than conservatives or liberals.

5) Apathy is more to blame for our current huge central government problems, IMO - but once the sleeping giant is awakened - watch out. One of the reasons so many people like Ron Paul is because he is a constructionist. Ditto the Tea Pary.

6) I can only speak for myself but I care very deeply about the state of my birth.

7) I'm not offended, it's interesting reading a foreigner's take on our exceptional country.

1) :laugh: I think they are all dollar figures...but I get your point :laugh:

2) You think there could be the sort of rebellion that would lead to civil war in the United States :huh: Its not that I dont think they consider it. Its because at the end of the day I just dont think they ever would UNLESS the Federal Government started murdering people.

3) :happydancing:

4) Not really. The only real input on actual observations of Americans comes from this forum :laugh: Here there is always great tension. Liberals are to blame for every ill, and Republicans are next to Godliness :laugh:

5) Maybe, but I wonder how many Americans understand about what the relationship and design of the State/Federal Governments are. Do they realize that your forefathers actually envisioned a much more Eurocentric method of running. Where each State was individual and culpable, and the Federal Union could only dictate on Transport and one or two other things with were continent wide. Is it possible, that like myself, before someone explained the consitution to me, they actually dont know, and thus why would they realize that the founders never envisioned a Washington Led Initiative for Government WITHIN inidividual states? I didnt know that, and neither did anyone i've spoken to about it.

6) GOOD! I think that all Americans should have STATE Pride, because in a Devolved sense, to be American is to be of duel nationality. You are American because of the Union. But you are also of a specific State Government. :cool:

7) Well..some people have been really upset by what ive said, or my thoughts on the United States before. I've even been in trouble on here for anti-american views before now. I am also aware that Americans consider themselves very much independant and dont really care for advice or help or criticisms, especially not from Europe, and especially not from England. I also acknowledge that for a lot of Americans the base line ends up being "you're not American, so what would you know"

I dont appologise for my views, and I do not consider them anti-american at all. BUT I dont want to appear mean, or make people upset. Thats not very nice. So when I say something with views, that I feel might be slightly odd or brave coming from a non-american...I often just add a disclaimer saying that these are just my views and I hope noone is so upset by them they want me to go and never come back, or are going to shout at me :unsure-1:

flo
01-21-2012, 08:20 PM
3) :happydancing:



:wub:



4) Not really. The only real input on actual observations of Americans comes from this forum :laugh: Here there is always great tension. Liberals are to blame for every ill, and Republicans are next to Godliness :laugh:



Well, as much as I love this forum, it isn't representative of the whole country, much as I wish it was. For a taste of the other side you'd have to visit the Huffington Post, Daily Kos, Democatic Underground or some such. I won't link to them. But like you said, liberals are to blame for every ill and Republicans are next to Godliness, true! :wink:



5) Maybe, but I wonder how many Americans understand about what the relationship and design of the State/Federal Governments are. Do they realize that your forefathers actually envisioned a much more Eurocentric method of running. Where each State was individual and culpable, and the Federal Union could only dictate on Transport and one or two other things with were continent wide. Is it possible, that like myself, before someone explained the consitution to me, they actually dont know, and thus why would they realize that the founders never envisioned a Washington Led Initiative for Government WITHIN inidividual states? I didnt know that, and neither did anyone i've spoken to about it.



This is just my own opinion but far too many Americans are ill-informed about government and our constitution - or just don't care. Not that I know all that much, I'm still learning. Nate and Chris F know far more than I do (and several others here, I'm sure). But the average America hasn't fought in a war or gone through a depression. So they are comfortable. They don't know how dear our constitution is to our survival as a great and unique country. Now that our economy is teetering, I think more people are aware of how bloated our federal government has gotten and are starting to make some noise about changing the status quo in Washington DC of endless spending and bureaucracy. People are taking more notice of activist judges subverting the role of the legislature. The tide is turning (at least, I hope so).

Tyburn
01-21-2012, 08:23 PM
I like talking with you Flo :ashamed::laugh:

flo
01-21-2012, 09:24 PM
I like talking with you Flo :ashamed::laugh:
Ditto, Tyburn. You have so many interests and I especially enjoy your travelogues (I'm more an armchair traveler). :)