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Tyburn
01-13-2012, 09:03 PM
According to the Geneva Convention, the mark of a civilized culture, even one at war, is that they treat the enemies who are dead "honourably"

If you believe that ALL humans are made in the image of GOD then regardless of what attrocities the enemy are guilty of, and even though you may have been the person to have killed them for such a crime, it is a sad violation to desecrate the dead in an obscene manner. You may not wish to observe their customs, but as fellow human beings there are obvious boundaries that you should never cross.

To see the very epitome of the Armed Forces world wide, involved with such, brings shame on the entire allied force, and on the entire Federal Republic, not to mention on the Corps itself.

Not Angry, but very saddened indeed...it seems that there is a nasty undercurrent in the United States that its alright to treat enemies, and their relics as sub human. That it is alright to act away from Gospel Values so long as those aimed at are not Christian. This is the sort of test that GOD uses to judge whether a Nation actually practises what she preaches, or whether she forgets her place in the cosmic order...in the last 100 weeks, thrice, has seemingly decended into barbarism that is incompatable with the Christian Claim. The first Charge is the feeling that its alright to take hostage and abuse suspects without charge and without trial. So unconstitutional is this to her very self, the location isnt contained within her direct soverignty. The second charge is the mass support for the desicration of an Islamic Text which holds value to Muslims, for no other purpose, then to cause offense and endanger the lives of the very men who have to cope with the real terror caused by some islamist extremists. Now we see the true attitudes and under currents within the very height of the worlds most elite armed force. No ammount of standing to attention with the pretense of being honourable, will cover any soldier who believes anything other within his heart, from the wrath of GOD that will be repaid to him for his disrepute, whether it be uncovered, or whether he takes to the grave, those mistakes he made, for which he shows no repentance for.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Marine Corps took a first, formal step on Friday toward possible charges against four troops who, in a video widely circulated on television and the Internet, appear to be urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters.

The Corps named a lead investigating officer whose job would include deciding what charges, if any, would be brought against the four men - all of whom have been identified, a Corps official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

None of the suspects have been detained, the official said. At least two are still part of the same unit involved in the video - the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines, based out of Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, a second official told Reuters.

That unit served in Afghanistan's Helmand province from March until September of 2011, the second official said.

Marine Corps Commandant General James Amos said in a statement on Friday he would not "rest until the allegations and the events surrounding them have been resolved."

The video, posted on YouTube and other websites, shows four men in camouflage Marine combat uniforms urinating on three corpses. One of them jokes: "Have a nice day, buddy." Another makes a lewd joke.

Reuters has been unable to verify that the dead men were indeed Taliban fighters, but the Marines said the video appeared to depict "several dead Taliban."

Afghan President Hamid Karzai condemned the video, describing the men's actions as "inhuman" and calling for an investigation.

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta telephoned Karzai to denounce the actions in the video as "deplorable," and General Martin Dempsey, the top U.S. military officer, said actions depicted in the video were illegal.

EXPANDING INVESTIGATION

It is likely that other people beyond the four will be brought into the investigation, including the individual who filmed the desecration of the dead and whoever else may have been watching off-camera.

The Marine Corps said the lead investigating officer, known in military-speak as the "Consolidated Disposition Authority," was Lieutenant General Waldhause, the commander of Marine Corps Forces Central Command.

The video is likely to stir up already strong anti-U.S. sentiment in Afghanistan after a decade of a war that has seen past cases of abuse. That could complicate efforts to promote reconciliation as foreign troops gradually withdraw, although a Taliban spokesman on Thursday said it would not harm nascent efforts to broker peace talks.

The Pentagon has moved quickly to respond to the video, a move that Panetta says he hopes will limit fallout.

"The danger obviously is this kind of video could be misused in many ways not only to undermine what we are trying to do in Afghanistan but undermine the potential for reconciliation. There is a danger there," Panetta told reporters on a trip to Texas on Thursday.

"But I think if we move quickly - if we conduct this investigation and hold these people accountable - we send a clear signal to the world that the U.S. is not going to tolerate that kind of behavior and it doesn't represent the United States as a whole."

Officials tell Reuters that the Marine Corps is confident the video is authentic but the Pentagon has so far stopped short of formally confirming it is an accurate depiction of what happened.

News of the footage had yet to really spread in Afghanistan - a country where a minority has access to electricity and the Internet is limited to a tiny urban elite.

Anti-American feeling has boiled over, or been whipped up, into violence several times in Afghanistan in recent years. Protests over reports of the desecration of the Muslim holy book have twice sparked deadly riots

Play The Man
01-13-2012, 09:49 PM
I think this quote from Rep. Allen West (Republican out of Florida), a retired Lt. Col. in the Army, says it best:

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

VCURamFan
01-13-2012, 09:51 PM
I think this quote from Rep. Allen West (Republican out of Florida), a retired Lt. Col. in the Army, says it best:
Well said.

flo
01-13-2012, 09:59 PM
I agree with Rep. West. The definitive statement:

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

Play The Man
01-13-2012, 10:18 PM
According to the Geneva Convention, the mark of a civilized culture, even one at war, is that they treat the enemies who are dead "honourably"

If you believe that ALL humans are made in the image of GOD then regardless of what attrocities the enemy are guilty of, and even though you may have been the person to have killed them for such a crime, it is a sad violation to desecrate the dead in an obscene manner. You may not wish to observe their customs, but as fellow human beings there are obvious boundaries that you should never cross.

To see the very epitome of the Armed Forces world wide, involved with such, brings shame on the entire allied force, and on the entire Federal Republic, not to mention on the Corps itself.

Not Angry, but very saddened indeed...it seems that there is a nasty undercurrent in the United States that its alright to treat enemies, and their relics as sub human. That it is alright to act away from Gospel Values so long as those aimed at are not Christian. This is the sort of test that GOD uses to judge whether a Nation actually practises what she preaches, or whether she forgets her place in the cosmic order...in the last 100 weeks, thrice, has seemingly decended into barbarism that is incompatable with the Christian Claim. The first Charge is the feeling that its alright to take hostage and abuse suspects without charge and without trial. So unconstitutional is this to her very self, the location isnt contained within her direct soverignty. The second charge is the mass support for the desicration of an Islamic Text which holds value to Muslims, for no other purpose, then to cause offense and endanger the lives of the very men who have to cope with the real terror caused by some islamist extremists. Now we see the true attitudes and under currents within the very height of the worlds most elite armed force. No ammount of standing to attention with the pretense of being honourable, will cover any soldier who believes anything other within his heart, from the wrath of GOD that will be repaid to him for his disrepute, whether it be uncovered, or whether he takes to the grave, those mistakes he made, for which he shows no repentance for.


Within the past month, Tyburn, you have posted about Oliver Cromwell and the Restoration. For those who do not know, perhaps you could post about what happened to Oliver Cromwell's "relics". As you are a defender of the monarchy and the COE, perhaps you could tie in your post above with the post about Cromwell. Additionally, please mention where said events involving Cromwell occurred, and explain your avatar name, in light of these facts.

VCURamFan
01-13-2012, 10:27 PM
Within the past month, Tyburn, you have posted about Oliver Cromwell and the Restoration. For those who do not know, perhaps you could post about what happened to Oliver Cromwell's "relics". As you are a defender of the monarchy and the COE, perhaps you could tie in your post above with the post about Cromwell. Additionally, please mention where said events involving Cromwell occurred, and explain your avatar name, in light of these facts.

I'm all ears!

Play The Man
01-13-2012, 10:42 PM
I am not defending what the Marines did as a "good" thing. It was wrong; but on a scale of evil, it was trifling. It reminds me of Abu Ghraib. It is ironic how shocked liberals get about such actions when half of them probably engage in urolagnia in their private lives. I would bet that a significant number of liberal journalists and pundits have paid money to have acts performed on them that were performed at Abu Ghraib prison.

Miss Foxy
01-13-2012, 10:54 PM
Semper Fidelis.... Our troops have been bombed and tortured and the media isn't all over it. These things happen.. Do I agree? No.. Am I out there without my family, getting injured, seeing people die? No, and until I am I will shut up.

NateR
01-14-2012, 01:49 PM
When I was in Korea, MPs would be called to pick up American troops who where out on the town getting drunk and had been picked up by the South Korean police. They would often report finding the Korean police officers urinating on the passed out American soldiers in their jail cells.

So, I guess if one of our allies urinates on a living American soldier, nobody cares. However, if a US soldier dares to urinate on the dead body of a Taliban soldier, who spent his final moments trying to kill that US soldier, then that is the unpardonable sin according to some.

This kind of contrived "outrage" over the "desecration" of dead enemies really just stems from a total hatred of the US military and those to serve in it.

American soldiers have been "desecrating" enemy bodies since WW2, probably much earlier, but the media had the good sense to keep those actions hidden and allow the military to handle its own internal affairs. That's exactly what this is: an internal military matter. Thus it is none of our business.

Neezar
01-14-2012, 02:27 PM
My husband and I were discussing this the other day. We rarely have heated debates over anything. This was one of them. He was outraged by their behavior. I don't like what they did. However, I can't help but to want to give these guys a little compassion. I can't even grasp the idea of living in a place far from home where everyone literally hates you. And where you have to kill to survive. And, not all, but most surely must have to form some strong hate to mentally handle the aspects of war. I imagine that would be a hard thing to turn off and on like a switch. These may be people who would never dream of doing something like that under normal circumstances.

I agree with West. If you haven't had to survive in that situation then you don't know what you would do or what you are capable of.

Neezar
01-14-2012, 02:33 PM
Now we see the true attitudes and under currents within the very height of the worlds most elite armed force.




So you are going to assume that the actions of four reflect the attitude of the whole force?

Dave, for years you have defended the whole of muslims because you knew a few with a good heart. Why the double standard here?

Tyburn
01-14-2012, 03:16 PM
So you are going to assume that the actions of four reflect the attitude of the whole force?

Dave, for years you have defended the whole of muslims because you knew a few with a good heart. Why the double standard here?

I'm not saying it reflects the whole force, I'm saying you are seeing what the majority of people (wholistically, as in the entire cultural entrophy) appearing in the highest cadence of the Military. (put a comma between currents and within)

For Example Look at this thread...look at the string of Justifications that good christians have used to try and cover this without condemnation.

"what would you know, you werent even there"
"it wasnt really that bad"
"they deserved it"
"they do the same to us"
"its none of your business"
"everyone just hates the Marines"

"im not trying to defend But...."
"they were wrong But...."

This is the American Christians Response on this forum. Not to dissimilar to the great Quran bonfire suggestion I seem to recall. I'm just trying to show some people how hypocritical they can be...they call down fire and brimstone on some sins...whilst supporting other sins and making excuses. Their Self Righteousness evaporates the moment it relates to them.

I find that sad and depressing.

Tyburn
01-14-2012, 03:35 PM
Within the past month, Tyburn, you have posted about Oliver Cromwell and the Restoration. For those who do not know, perhaps you could post about what happened to Oliver Cromwell's "relics". As you are a defender of the monarchy and the COE, perhaps you could tie in your post above with the post about Cromwell. Additionally, please mention where said events involving Cromwell occurred, and explain your avatar name, in light of these facts.

Was England signed up to Geneva in the 1660s :huh:

When The Lord Protector died, he was given a State Funneral befitting any senior Statesman. Including a procession through the City of London, and a Religious Service at Westminster Abbey. Where-upon, he was thus interred for several years in that Holy Place.

Revenge was taken on his relics several years later by the Son of the King who Oliver Murdered. (this was possible because the casket for all those of his status were leadlined and vaccum sealed!) Which included their revelation and exposure at the place of State Capital Punishment for London at that time. A field on the banks of the River Tyburn north of Westminster.

After that the only relic that remained was Olivers Head, which was transfered to Westminster Palace for safe keeping. after a tour through many private collections and museums, it was finally burried for a second time about 400 years later in one of the Oxbridge Colleges.

But you take a great liberty if you believe my choice of the name Tyburn bears any relation to my distaste for Oliver Cromwell. There are several reasons behind my screen name, none of them reflect Oliver Cromwell who had long since died before his post-humous visit to Tyburn.

As for relating this post to the other. It is Never morally right to desicrate the dead. It is sometimes legal to desicrate the dead though. As King, Charles was Soverign and thus there was no attempt to hide what he intended to do. He had the corpse on display for a day at Tyburn, and the head for twenty years at westminster. It is not legal for a nation signed up to Geneva to desicrate the dead, although, they may kill. Personally I think that Charles did what befell Cromwell, NOT because of what Cromwell did to his Father or himself...but because he was probably upset at two things. First that he, as King had been unable to kill Cromwell. His death to natural causes, conned the King out of a legitamate revenge. The Second thing is...I suspect it displeased Charles that Cromwell was lying in the Abbey...Truth be told, it might have upset Oliver also, because he never wanted to be treated as a King...so to lie in the family Mausolium...well...neither Charles nor Oliver would have desired that outcome

Neezar
01-14-2012, 03:55 PM
For Example Look at this thread...look at the string of Justifications that good christians have used to try and cover this without condemnation.



No one in this thread did that. All admitted that it was wrong and punishment was deserved.

Neezar
01-14-2012, 03:57 PM
I'm not saying it reflects the whole force, I'm saying you are seeing what the majority of people (wholistically, as in the entire cultural entrophy) appearing in the highest cadence of the Military. (put a comma between currents and within)



Why do you imply it is the majority based on the actions of a few?

Neezar
01-14-2012, 04:01 PM
This is the American Christians Response on this forum. Not to dissimilar to the great Quran bonfire suggestion I seem to recall. I'm just trying to show some people how hypocritical they can be...they call down fire and brimstone on some sins...whilst supporting other sins and making excuses. Their Self Righteousness evaporates the moment it relates to them.

I find that sad and depressing.

Who on here has called down fire and brimstone? And when? :laugh:

I was speaking to whether or not these men's actions could be understandable in the situation. I am in no way implying that it is morally or spiritually okay. Was it a sin? Absolutely.

But from your stand point, everyone sins AND sin is sin. So now why are you singling these guys out? Trying to make this sin stand out? You usually want us to view sin as sin and if we pardon one we should pardon all. It seems that you are the one being hypocritical here.


ps And finding sinful actions understandable is NOT supporting that sin nor is it making excuses.

You are making horrible assumptions and being terribly unfair in trying to show people the point you want to make here. That doesn't help your case.

Tyburn
01-14-2012, 04:07 PM
No one in this thread did that. All admitted that it was wrong and punishment was deserved.

There was not the condemnation that they like to post for other sins...just a lot of excuse making. ...I dont think anyone apart from PTM mentioned punishment.

Perhaps I remind afew next time they decide to actually show condemnation and remind them that those sins are "on a scale of evil: trifling." :laugh:

Neezar
01-14-2012, 04:12 PM
There was not the condemnation that they like to post for other sins...just a lot of excuse making. ...I dont think anyone apart from PTM mentioned punishment.

Perhaps I remind afew next time they decide to actually show condemnation and remind them that those sins are "on a scale of evil: trifling." :laugh:

But don't you realize that YOU do the same thing? Those sins that you say they comdemn are the ones that you try to downplay. You don't want anyone making a big deal out of them. Yet on some, you single them out and nitpick them to death! Just like this one. You are worse about that than anyone on this forum ever dreamed of being!

So are you trying to learn from this thing that you are trying to show people?

Tyburn
01-14-2012, 04:15 PM
Why do you imply it is the majority based on the actions of a few?

...I worry that its a case of, them just doing what your average person in the street would do it they could. I fear the veneer of civilization is thin. In relation to this forum, I have never recovered from the shock of learning that actually most who cared to speak actually considered the Quran burning to be a positive, good idea. I struggled to comprehend and remember blogging about it at the time, how those who I admired as Christian were advocating evil for the sake of it.

Suddenly, when it actually mattered, all the gospel truth about overcoming evil with good, and rendering to noone evil for evil suddenly evaporates.

I tend to think that alongside the journalism, this forum basically speaks for the American Conservative and Christian Right...therefore if most people are against the health reform on here...then most of America probably rejects it also...in the same way, if all the folks on here think its good to burn Qurans...well, probably most other Americans do also. We have a good cross section on the forum, from teenaged kids, to ex forces, to mothers, to labourours from many different states...I feel its as un stereotypical a sterotype as is possible to base assumptions on. :laugh:

Tyburn
01-14-2012, 04:19 PM
So are you trying to learn from this thing that you are trying to show people?

:ashamed: that is a very good question. :ashamed:

your right in your assesment.... :unsure-1:

Forgive me everyone :sad:

Neezar
01-14-2012, 05:01 PM
:ashamed: that is a very good question. :ashamed:

your right in your assesment.... :unsure-1:

Forgive me everyone :sad:

No need to ask forgiveness here. I am as guilty as the next person.

No excuses just compassion. :)

County Mike
01-14-2012, 05:42 PM
Allen West is awesome. I wish he'd run for President.

adamt
01-14-2012, 06:33 PM
how come people are okay with this and not okay with the whole koran burning thingy.....and that's a serious question too, i am not trolling or trying to play gotcha, i want someone to explain why i was wrong for supporting the koran burning, yet this is okay...... don't get me wrong, i would pee on them in a heartbeat, but i would also burn a koran............ also, if the muslims threatened to uprise, would we then all condemn this?

NateR
01-14-2012, 07:06 PM
how come people are okay with this and not okay with the whole koran burning thingy.....and that's a serious question too, i am not trolling or trying to play gotcha, i want someone to explain why i was wrong for supporting the koran burning, yet this is okay...... don't get me wrong, i would pee on them in a heartbeat, but i would also burn a koran............ also, if the muslims threatened to uprise, would we then all condemn this?

I never claimed that it was okay. I just think that it is a military matter. These men should be charged according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not the court of public opinion. However, considering the situation they are in (war is hell) and the fact that they are most likely not Christians (thus we can't hold them to the same standards as someone professing to be a Christian), then I see no need to feign outrage over the whole ordeal.

This quote perfectly sums up my opinion:
“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

adamt
01-14-2012, 10:10 PM
I never claimed that it was okay. I just think that it is a military matter. These men should be charged according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not the court of public opinion. However, considering the situation they are in (war is hell) and the fact that they are most likely not Christians (thus we can't hold them to the same standards as someone professing to be a Christian), then I see no need to feign outrage over the whole ordeal.

This quote perfectly sums up my opinion:

i can respect that, and if my opinion mattered at all this would definitely be the position i would take, but really i say let em pee on dead heathens all the want to, I don't know that God wants us to respect the dead bodies of evil satanists


but good reply........ i vote Rosario 2012!!!!!!--------which makes me wonder if a jew has ever been president?

Bonnie
01-15-2012, 12:21 AM
I think this quote from Rep. Allen West (Republican out of Florida), a retired Lt. Col. in the Army, says it best:


“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

:sign0011:

I'm outraged by all the outrage being spewed because it was AMERICANs!

Tyburn
01-17-2012, 07:26 PM
we can't hold them to the same standards as someone professing to be a Christian:

We dont need to. GOD already does. Not even a heathen can hide from The Lord.