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Play The Man
12-23-2011, 05:53 AM
My child just got a library card and we have gone a couple times now to check out books at the library. I am a bibliophile. I have a home library with over 1,000 books. In addition, we have several hundred childrens books. My point is, we are not anti-book, anti-education, etc. The first trip, they had a display set up in the pre-school/Kindergarten section with a recommended book for small children. Can you guess the title? No, not The Three Little Bears . . . No, not Brown Bear, Brown Bear . . . No, not Goodnight Moon.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SLPYyBZPHWA/SxIDX-S5uXI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/mCXaQdBoXB8/s320/in+our+mothers+house.jpg

A description from the School Library Journal

Grade 1–4—This gem of a book illustrates how love makes a family, even if it's not a traditional one. The narrator, a black girl, describes how her two Caucasian mothers, Marmee and Meema, adopted her, her Asian brother, and her red-headed sister. She tells about the wonderful times they have growing up in Berkeley, CA. With their large extended family and friends, they celebrate Halloween with homemade costumes, build a tree house, organize a neighborhood block party, and host a mother-daughter tea party. The narrator continually reinforces the affectionate feelings among her mothers and siblings, and the illustrations depict numerous scenes of smiling people having a grand time. Most of the neighbors are supportive, except for one woman who tells Marmee and Meema, "I don't appreciate what you two are." Eventually, the children grow up, marry heterosexual spouses, and return home to visit their aged parents with their own children. Is this an idealized vision of a how a gay couple can be accepted by their family and community? Absolutely. But the story serves as a model of inclusiveness for children who have same-sex parents, as well as for children who may have questions about a "different" family in their neighborhood. A lovely book that can help youngsters better understand their world.


A couple weeks later, I go back to the library. They have rotated a new book into the display as a recommeded book for preschool/Kindergarten students. Any guesses as to the title? No, not Dr. Seuss . . . No, not The Poky Little Puppy . . . No, not Thomas The Tank Engine

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRz8n0-kg8_kJJ5SnifJxkTyyiI_d0fq9KAyUwnS3jlrnEUB-Uh2g

Dyson loves the color pink and sparkly things. Sometimes he wears dresses, and sometimes he wears jeans. He likes to wear his princess tiara, even when climbing trees. He’s a Princess Boy, and his family loves him exactly the way he is.

Between federal, state, local, and sales taxes, our family is paying somewhere between 40-50% of our gross income on taxes. I am paying for this stuff. The classic childrens books are old, moldy, smelly, ripped, and stained. All the new books for children are essentially left-wing indoctrination or involve stories from third world countries. I don't know if I will be taking my children back to the library. I asked if they had an "adopt-a-book" program where I could purchase and donate a book of my choosing. The answer: no. Essentially, a left-leaning, unelected, nameless librarian gets to use my tax money to indoctrinate children. Why does a 4-year-old have to be taught about gender identity disorder, cross-dressing and lesbianism? Of course, if I disagree with this policy, I hate children and am against education. :rolleyes:

flo
12-23-2011, 06:41 AM
Pathetic, isn't it, PTM? I assume you're in a very blue city - as are we.

It wouldn't be quite as bad if they offered the wonderful children's books that we all enjoyed from years past as well. But they aren't even willing to do that.

Just another reason some of my friends home-school.

flo
12-23-2011, 06:52 AM
The liberal agenda for kids:

Age inappropriate books that offer one viewpoint.

Lunches with only those foods approved by the government.

If you bring your lunch you had better not use a *gasp* plastic bag of some sort.

3 meals supplied by the government.

Everone wins at sports and games, no "losers".

No grades, too competitive.

No red pen corrections, too "stressful", purple is much nicer.

No kickball, too violent.

"Alternate" history books.

Political indoctrination, mmm, mmm, mmm.

No God.

No Easter.

No Christmas.

No Jesus.

The list goes on ad nauseum.

Play The Man
12-23-2011, 07:11 AM
The liberal agenda for kids:

Age inappropriate books that offer one viewpoint.

Lunches with only those foods approved by the government.

If you bring your lunch you had better not use a *gasp* plastic bag of some sort.

3 meals supplied by the government.

Everone wins at sports and games, no "losers".

No grades, too competitive.

No red pen corrections, too "stressful", purple is much nicer.

No kickball, too violent.

"Alternate" history books.

Political indoctrination, mmm, mmm, mmm.

No God.

No Easter.

No Christmas.

No Jesus.

The list goes on ad nauseum.

Agree. The list goes on ad infinitum

Play The Man
12-23-2011, 07:31 AM
Pathetic, isn't it, PTM? I assume you're in a very blue city - as are we.

It wouldn't be quite as bad if they offered the wonderful children's books that we all enjoyed from years past as well. But they aren't even willing to do that.

Just another reason some of my friends home-school.

Flo, I am getting fed up. We are taxed like crazy - as I mentioned, between all the layers of taxes and fees we are somewhere between 40% and 50%. And what do I get for it? The library is filled with old books in bad condition except for the crazy left-leaning new ones. The school system is such a wreck, we pay $10K per-child per-year for private school. I can't take my kids to the park because homeless drug addicts are literally camped out in tents on the park property. They have been joined recently by an "Occupy" group. The park bathrooms double as a hook-up spots for homosexuals to use the stalls for anonymous sexual encounters. The last time I walked through the major city park with my daughter, there was a used condom on the ground next to a park bench and the garbage cans reeked of human urine because homeless people were using them as urinals.

rearnakedchoke
12-23-2011, 03:04 PM
if human rights doesn't allow discrimination towards people who are gay and in some states same sex couples are allowed to adopt, i don't see an isssue with these books ... as a parent, if i see something that i don't agree with, it is my responsibility to talk to my child about why i feel the way i do ... you can't give someone a right or a freedom and then say here you go, but keep it quiet ..

NateR
12-23-2011, 03:21 PM
you can't give someone a right or a freedom and then say here you go, but keep it quiet ..

Unless we're talking about freedom of religion and that person just happens to be a Christian. Then they better keep quiet to prevent being labeled as a closed-minded, uneducated, homophobic racist. :rolleyes:

Not a dig at you, but just revealing the hypocrisy inherent in the Progressive Liberal agenda.

rearnakedchoke
12-23-2011, 03:23 PM
Unless we're talking about freedom of religion and that person just happens to be a Christian. Then they better keep quiet to prevent being labeled as a closed-minded, homophobic racist. :rolleyes:

well, Christianity isn't the only religion that believe homosexuality is a sin

Primadawn
12-23-2011, 04:15 PM
My 9 year old 3rd grader came home from school a few weeks ago with a book she said the librarian (the SCHOOL librarian) recommended to her. Her friend had tried to check it out, but her reading level restricts her to certain color-coded books. For my Maggie, her reading level is such that NO books in the whole library are restricted to her. This library services K-8!

The book? "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret." Maggie's name is Margaret so the librarian thought that was "cute". Well, I read that book in 6th or 7th grade, so I knew it was totally inappropriate for a 3rd grader. It has references to girls getting their periods for the first time (which we haven't even discussed yet), references to looking at naked women in Playboy to see what they'll look like someday, and references to looking at diagrams of naked men in the encyclopedia.

I was livid! Sent a nice letter to the teacher and principal, along with the book, but haven't heard anything back yet. They have until the next school board meeting to respond, or we'll discuss it there.

flo
12-23-2011, 05:47 PM
rnc, the big problem with these books is...they are not age-appropriate. Why on earth does a 5 year-old need to know about different sexual preferences? Maybe I'm wildy out of touch but when we were 5 we had no clue about anything sexual.

But the left just wants to shove this stuff down everyone's throat, regardless of personal feelings or beliefs. Just more nanny-state BS.

Play The Man
12-23-2011, 08:46 PM
rnc, the big problem with these books is...they are not age-appropriate. Why on earth does a 5 year-old need to know about different sexual preferences? Maybe I'm wildy out of touch but when we were 5 we had no clue about anything sexual.

But the left just wants to shove this stuff down everyone's throat, regardless of personal feelings or beliefs. Just more nanny-state BS.

Did you see the story a few months ago from Switzerland about the Kindergarten "sex box"?

http://www.thelocal.ch/847/20110815/

Officials in Basel have agreed to rename the "sex box" after receiving some 3,000 letters of protest from parents angered by the controversial trove of wooden penises and fabric vaginas set to be used in a new sex education programme for playschool and primary school kids.

Christoph Eymann, Basel education minister and member of the liberal democrat party (LDP), responded to parent's protests in an interview with SonntagsBlick.

“It was no doubt stupid to call it a ’sex box’ – we will change that. But we will stick to our goal: to get across to children that sexuality is something natural. Without forcing anything upon them or taking anything away from their parents,“ he said.

Many parents say they do not understand why sex education needs to be taught to children as young as four.

“There are usually two reasons why sexuality becomes a topic in kindergarten: either the teacher is pregnant or one of the children will soon get a new sister or brother. In such cases, it is correct that the teacher can respond“, Eymann told SonntagsBlick.

Eymann said he understood that one line in the programme, “touching can be enjoyed heartily“, could be misconstrued, but insisted: “It is not about 'touch me, feel me'. We want to tell the children that there is contact that they may find pleasurable, but some that they should say ’no’ to. Kids can unfortunately can become victims of sexual violence already at playschool age.“

Eymann said he would prefer if sex education was taught to children at home but argued that education officials needed to respond to the realities of today.

"We currently live in an oversexualised society. There is uncontrolled distribution of pornographic material that can reach young children. Some primary school children know the TV schedule until 2am. We would like to offer these children firm support, which is often not available in the family. The box is only an aid. I trust the teachers to approach the material with care."

Despite this, Eymann said he takes critics' arguments seriously, and has ordered the contents of the box to be examined after finding the cover of previous teaching material tasteless.

Some parents have called for their children to be exempted from sex education. Eymann says he is strictly against exemptions, although he is aware this will not make him many friends:

"Primary school may be the only big audience that our society has. The shared values that it teaches are very important. I would definitely like to keep this. The explanatory lesson can be portrayed in a way that doesn’t offend“, he said.



I'm sure the "sex box" will be in our library in a few years.

On a side note, is it just me or do those "sex box" toys look like something from a bakery? :ashamed:

flo
12-23-2011, 09:10 PM
No, I hadn't seen that. For kids "as young as 4". :sad: What next? Live demonstrations in class?

Sexualizing our children when they're barely past the toddler stage has not worked real well, has it?

rearnakedchoke
12-24-2011, 02:36 AM
rnc, the big problem with these books is...they are not age-appropriate. Why on earth does a 5 year-old need to know about different sexual preferences? Maybe I'm wildy out of touch but when we were 5 we had no clue about anything sexual.

But the left just wants to shove this stuff down everyone's throat, regardless of personal feelings or beliefs. Just more nanny-state BS.

the problem is that the country .. yours and mine .. has decided to make it so you cannot discriminate against kids with same sex parents, gay kids ... they have books for kids on divorced parents, having two sets of parents .. those are not age appropriate either imo... but they have them for kids .. if i am a kid who has same sex parents and see a kid that can get a book on divorced parents, why shouldn't i be able to find a book that mirrors my life? someone mentioned it goes discriminates against christians or something along those lines .. i disagree .. i can still go the library and get kids books on the bible, church etc ... like i said, i don't see an issue with it ... i see your point, but if my kid has any questions about other peoples lifestyles, i would hope they would ask .. and i would do my best to give an answer in a non-hateful manner .. LOL

NateR
12-24-2011, 02:45 AM
gay kids ...

There is no such thing as a gay 5-year-old. There is still zero scientific evidence that anyone is born homosexual. It's something that people are corrupted and conditioned into, nothing more.

Trying to assign sexual identities to kids below the age of 18 is a reprehensible form of mental abuse and shows the cruel and destructive motives behind the Gay Rights agenda.

Play The Man
12-24-2011, 03:30 AM
the problem is that the country .. yours and mine .. has decided to make it so you cannot discriminate against kids with same sex parents, gay kids ... they have books for kids on divorced parents, having two sets of parents .. those are not age appropriate either imo... but they have them for kids .. if i am a kid who has same sex parents and see a kid that can get a book on divorced parents, why shouldn't i be able to find a book that mirrors my life? someone mentioned it goes discriminates against christians or something along those lines .. i disagree .. i can still go the library and get kids books on the bible, church etc ... like i said, i don't see an issue with it ... i see your point, but if my kid has any questions about other peoples lifestyles, i would hope they would ask .. and i would do my best to give an answer in a non-hateful manner .. LOL

I think one of the issues for me is that the book was not on the shelf, it was put on display, at the eyesight level of a 4-5-year-old. It was not kept for a resource for a particular child to check out if that child should be in that particular situation. It was put on display for all children and targeted at a very young age. Subsequently, another book was put on display with subject matter that I don't find appropriate for youngsters. I get what you are saying about divorced children, etc. However, unfortunately, divorce is a problem that is widespread and might be pertinent to one-quarter to one-third (or even one-half :sad:) of the children. Gender identity disorder is quite rare. Lesbianism is quite rare (~1%), married lesbians rarer, and married lesbians with multiracial adopted children rarer still. I also didn't mention that this library is across the street from a large, private Christian school. The school is probably one of the largest suppliers of child patrons (and volunteers) for this particular library branch. The neighborhood is mostly old people and children - it is not Berkeley or the Castro. I would doubt there is a married lesbian couple with children in the surrounding area.
Many of these books are justified because they supposedly address bullying. I am all for protecting kids from bullying, including effeminate kids or kids with lesbian parents; however, bullying is very widespread and is not reserved for sexual orientation. Kids are bullied for: being fat, being thin, being hairy, having glasses, being black, being white, being brown, being yellow, having an accent, being smart, being dumb . . . you get the picture. I can remember reading a book about bullying as a preschooler (I can't recall the book title but it was about a rabbit being bullied for having a fat father. I can recall the chorus: "You're smaller than a daisy! Your father is fat and lazy!" [PTM editorial note: Blade, I do know the difference between "You're" and "Your" - I actually learned it in pre-school from the rabbit book.]. Why not resurrect the rabbit book about bullying and avoid involving children in grown-up culture wars?

Bonnie
12-24-2011, 04:04 AM
Did you see the story a few months ago from Switzerland about the Kindergarten "sex box"?

http://www.thelocal.ch/847/20110815/



I'm sure the "sex box" will be in our library in a few years.

On a side note, is it just me or do those "sex box" toys look like something from a bakery? :ashamed:

When I read that, I had to go look. :laugh: You're right, one reminds me of a honey bun, the other, a kolache aka a pig-in-a-blanket. :blink:

This whole thing is insane!

Play The Man
12-24-2011, 04:45 AM
When I read that, I had to go look. :laugh: You're right, one reminds me of a honey bun, the other, a kolache aka a pig-in-a-blanket. :blink:

This whole thing is insane!

At least I am not the only one. :ashamed: I guess I'm not crazy. :ashamed:

The bakery quip reminds of a funny incident. A number of years ago I was sitting in on a lecture by a distinguished researcher in the treatment of vascular wounds. Due to the subject matter, the lecture was a bit dry. There seemed to be an endless carousel of slides full of disgusting pictures of venous stasis ulcers. Here is a representative sampling:

http://www.australianprescriber.com/upload/issue_files/2301_350_2.jpg

http://www.apligraf.com/patient/images/venous_1.jpg

http://www.thewounddoctor.com/venousulcer.jpg

http://users.rcn.com/szarnick/ulcer.jpg

When it seemed like he was losing the audience to boredom, he got to a very close-up picture of an ulcer. All of the sudden, he yelled out "Hey! There it is, I thought I lost it!" He hit the remote on the slide carousel and the next slide showed a wider shot of the previous slide picture - it was a picture of a breakfast Danish pastry! He said, "I've been looking for that pastry ever since breakfast this morning!" My retelling can't do his timing and dry wit justice. It was so out of left field that it caught me totally off-guard. I laughed so hard I spit coffee on my shirt . . . and I haven't forgotten the lecture all these years later.



http://www.recipesfromhome-online.com/images/DPastry.jpg

Bonnie
12-24-2011, 12:38 PM
At least I am not the only one. :ashamed: I guess I'm not crazy. :ashamed:

The bakery quip reminds of a funny incident. A number of years ago I was sitting in on a lecture by a distinguished researcher in the treatment of vascular wounds. Due to the subject matter, the lecture was a bit dry. There seemed to be an endless carousel of slides full of disgusting pictures of venous stasis ulcers. Here is a representative sampling:


When it seemed like he was losing the audience to boredom, he got to a very close-up picture of an ulcer. All of the sudden, he yelled out "Hey! There it is, I thought I lost it!" He hit the remote on the slide carousel and the next slide showed a wider shot of the previous slide picture - it was a picture of a breakfast Danish pastry! He said, "I've been looking for that pastry ever since breakfast this morning!" My retelling can't do his timing and dry wit justice. It was so out of left field that it caught me totally off-guard. I laughed so hard I spit coffee on my shirt . . . and I haven't forgotten the lecture all these years later.


http://www.recipesfromhome-online.com/images/DPastry.jpg

Those pictures are awful! It's 7 in the morning here, I guess I can forget about breakfast now! :laugh: You know you're totally ruining my love of danish, don't you! :laugh:

Sex boxes with pastry parts and venous ulcers...I can't wait to see what's next! :laugh:

Neezar
12-24-2011, 02:43 PM
Disgusting! What's at the library that is. :laugh:

The ulcers, well those aren't too bad. When we get them at the ER some people will find a reason to go in the room to take a peek. :unsure-1:

:laugh:

However, I have never seen them next to a danish. The resemblance is astonishing. lol. I will probaly never eat one again!

Neezar
12-24-2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks for posting this thread, PTM. Very enlighting. Parents have to be careful these days. Evil/bad things seem to be promoted in everything now. And they are glamourized and made almost irresistable to kids. The library (in the kid's section, at least) is one place where you would think you wouldn't have to worry about such things.

flo
12-24-2011, 07:00 PM
Disgusting! What's at the library that is. :laugh:

The ulcers, well those aren't too bad.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm with Bonnie. I'll never enjoy a danish with the same enthusiasm again. :sick:

rearnakedchoke
12-24-2011, 09:44 PM
There is no such thing as a gay 5-year-old. There is still zero scientific evidence that anyone is born homosexual. It's something that people are corrupted and conditioned into, nothing more.

Trying to assign sexual identities to kids below the age of 18 is a reprehensible form of mental abuse and shows the cruel and destructive motives behind the Gay Rights agenda.

maybe .. don't know . but i would wager to believe there is probably no evidence to prove we are born heterosexual either ... so i guess we are asexual beings until 18 or so ... i don't buy it ..

Play The Man
12-27-2011, 06:35 AM
My 9 year old 3rd grader came home from school a few weeks ago with a book she said the librarian (the SCHOOL librarian) recommended to her. Her friend had tried to check it out, but her reading level restricts her to certain color-coded books. For my Maggie, her reading level is such that NO books in the whole library are restricted to her. This library services K-8!

The book? "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret." Maggie's name is Margaret so the librarian thought that was "cute". Well, I read that book in 6th or 7th grade, so I knew it was totally inappropriate for a 3rd grader. It has references to girls getting their periods for the first time (which we haven't even discussed yet), references to looking at naked women in Playboy to see what they'll look like someday, and references to looking at diagrams of naked men in the encyclopedia.

I was livid! Sent a nice letter to the teacher and principal, along with the book, but haven't heard anything back yet. They have until the next school board meeting to respond, or we'll discuss it there.


I don't think it is safe any longer to assume that librarians or schools will protect your children. The story below is a case in point:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/porn-star-defends-reading-to-elementary-school-children-after-parents-outraged/

Sasha Grey, the porn star who outraged Los Angeles-area elementary school parents after she was invited to read to students last week, said Friday she will not stop reading to kids despite having “a past that some people may not agree with.”

Grey was participating in the National Education Association-sponsored “Read Across America” program at Emerson Elementary School in Compton, Calif., reading to first and third grade students. TMZ obtained photos of the actress — now retired from the adult film industry — interacting with children during the Nov. 2 event.

Parents reportedly complained about Grey’s involvement and her proximity to their children, but instead of acknowledging what happened, the school district denied she had been there at all. A representative from the district told TMZ, “We have several celebrities who read to our students each year. The actress you have indicated [Sasha] was not present.”

The district’s response was at odds with the photographs posted online as well as a message Grey posted on Twitter last week: “Spent the am with Read Across America Compton, reading to the sweetest 1st & 3rd grade students @ Emerson Elementary!”

After news of the incident spread Friday, Grey posted a statement online defending her participation in the program. She called promoting education and literacy “an effort that is close to my heart” and said she would continue to do so.

“I committed to this program with the understanding that people would have their own opinions about what I have done, who I am and what I represent,” she said. “I am an actor. I am an artist. I am a daughter. I am a sister. I am a partner. I have a past that some people may not agree with, but it does not define who I am. I will not live in fear of it.”

Twinsmama
01-04-2012, 07:14 PM
That is pathetic. Someone at that library is trying to make a point to someone. I believe in talking to my children and explaining that just because some people do things does not make it right. I believe the same as Nate so I have an extra issue with it just because I don't agree with the nature of the books for young children. I think I would make a mention of it to someone at the private school to get their opinion. Would the private school let those books be displayed in their library? I would also not go back to that library.

I know it sounds a little drastic but some of my beliefs I will not bend on. I have different beliefs than others but don't push my beliefs on them. I don't agree with living a gay lifestyle but I'm also not going to want a "Gay is bad" book displayed in the library. There is a time and place for issues that are sensitive to many people.

Neezar
01-05-2012, 01:56 PM
I may have changed my mind on this. Kids at that age are very centered on accepting and being accepted. There are all kinds of children's books about accepting others who are different. If I want my kids to accept kids of a different race, fat kids, deformed/disabled kids, why would I not want them to accept a child who by no fault of their own has two mommys or two daddys? They are going to learn about it anyway. Books are a tool for learning and opening doors to discussion with parents, not a replacement.

NateR
01-05-2012, 02:08 PM
maybe .. don't know . but i would wager to believe there is probably no evidence to prove we are born heterosexual either ... so i guess we are asexual beings until 18 or so ... i don't buy it ..

Probably one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

There is undeniable biological evidence that people are born heterosexual. Men have been biologically designed to fertilize the eggs in women in order to produce children. There is no other way for humans to procreate. So, there is your proof that heterosexuality is in the biological plan.

But I guess people need to deny the existence of the obvious in order to try to justify something as ridiculous as gay marriage.

NateR
01-05-2012, 02:10 PM
I may have changed my mind on this. Kids at that age are very centered on accepting and being accepted. There are all kinds of children's books about accepting others who are different. If I want my kids to accept kids of a different race, fat kids, deformed/disabled kids, why would I not want them to accept a child who by no fault of their own has two mommys or two daddys? They are going to learn about it anyway. Books are a tool for learning and opening doors to discussion with parents, not a replacement.

Why not just talk to your kids about the issue yourself instead of allowing them to read a book that is clearly trying to push an agenda? You can teach them that, while their "parents" are living in sin, it is not the child's fault and it's probably best to not mention the same-sex parents unless directly asked about it. Then they can simply state what the Bible says about homosexuality.

rearnakedchoke
01-05-2012, 02:29 PM
Probably one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

There is undeniable biological evidence that people are born heterosexual. Men have been biologically designed to fertilize the eggs in women in order to produce children. There is no other way for humans to procreate. So, there is your proof that heterosexuality is in the biological plan.

But I guess people need to deny the existence of the obvious in order to try to justify something as ridiculous as gay marriage.

you are the one that said assigning sexual identities to anyone under 18 is reprehensible ..

Twinsmama
01-05-2012, 02:38 PM
Why not just talk to your kids about the issue yourself instead of allowing them to read a book that is clearly trying to push an agenda? You can teach them that, while their "parents" are living in sin, it is not the child's fault and it's probably best to not mention the same-sex parents unless directly asked about it. Then they can simply state what the Bible says about homosexuality.


I try to explain to my kids that same point about many things. I think it's important to know people are all different and we don't have to agree with their choices because they think we should.

rearnakedchoke
01-05-2012, 02:49 PM
Why not just talk to your kids about the issue yourself instead of allowing them to read a book that is clearly trying to push an agenda? You can teach them that, while their "parents" are living in sin, it is not the child's fault and it's probably best to not mention the same-sex parents unless directly asked about it. Then they can simply state what the Bible says about homosexuality.

so anything that does not align with Christian beliefs should not have books about it? what if a non-Christian said they want all Bibles and kids Bibles out of the library because they are pushing the Christian agenda?
http://www.kidscanpress.com/Assets/Books/w_Evolution_2073/Covers/2073_cv3.jpg

or evolution .. they do not align with Christian beliefs .. are they trying to push an agenda?? lets get rid of them too ...

NateR
01-05-2012, 04:56 PM
you are the one that said assigning sexual identities to anyone under 18 is reprehensible ..

GOD assigns sexual identities to kids at the moment of conception. Two X chromosomes for women or an X and a Y chromosome for men. That's the system that He created, it is not our place to subvert that with liberal ideologies.

NateR
01-05-2012, 04:59 PM
so anything that does not align with Christian beliefs should not have books about it? what if a non-Christian said they want all Bibles and kids Bibles out of the library because they are pushing the Christian agenda?
http://www.kidscanpress.com/Assets/Books/w_Evolution_2073/Covers/2073_cv3.jpg

or evolution .. they do not align with Christian beliefs .. are they trying to push an agenda?? lets get rid of them too ...

Not saying the books shouldn't exist. Just that parents should choose what their kids read, not the government, or a school system, or even the kids themselves.

Also, Evolution is a joke that is on its last legs as a viable scientific theory (it was never really "scientific" to begin with). So the best way to discredit Evolution is to study it closely and see just how impossible its claims really are.

rearnakedchoke
01-05-2012, 05:06 PM
Not saying the books shouldn't exist. Just that parents should choose what their kids read, not the government, or a school system, or even the kids themselves.

Also, Evolution is a joke that is on its last legs as a viable scientific theory (it was never really "scientific" to begin with). So the best way to discredit Evolution is to study it closely and see just how impossible its claims really are.

ok .. my thought was that they were just on display ... not that they were being forced on kids ...

NateR
01-05-2012, 05:15 PM
ok .. my thought was that they were just on display ... not that they were being forced on kids ...

They're kind of one and the same when you are talking about kids. Is the candy next to the checkout counter in a grocery store just "on display" or is the intent to get kids to pressure their parents into buying it?

rearnakedchoke
01-05-2012, 05:18 PM
They're kind of one and the same when you are talking about kids. Is the candy next to the checkout counter in a grocery store just "on display" or is the intent to get kids to pressure their parents into buying it?

yeah, i guess .. LOL ..

Tyburn
01-05-2012, 08:19 PM
The liberal agenda for kids:

Age inappropriate books that offer one viewpoint.

Lunches with only those foods approved by the government.

If you bring your lunch you had better not use a *gasp* plastic bag of some sort.

3 meals supplied by the government.

Everone wins at sports and games, no "losers".

No grades, too competitive.

No red pen corrections, too "stressful", purple is much nicer.

No kickball, too violent.

"Alternate" history books.

Political indoctrination, mmm, mmm, mmm.

No God.

No Easter.

No Christmas.

No Jesus.

The list goes on ad nauseum.

Ad Nauseum indeed :cool::laugh:

Tyburn
01-05-2012, 08:21 PM
GOD assigns sexual identities to kids at the moment of conception. Two X chromosomes for women or an X and a Y chromosome for men. That's the system that He created, it is not our place to subvert that with liberal ideologies.

What are your views on IVF treatment :huh:

NateR
01-05-2012, 11:23 PM
What are your views on IVF treatment :huh:

IVF? In Vitro Fertilization?

From what I understand, that's only used when there is some kind of medical problem that prevents the mother from carrying a child. It still doesn't change the fact that XX chromosomes = female and XY chromosomes = male.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 04:54 PM
IVF? In Vitro Fertilization?

From what I understand, that's only used when there is some kind of medical problem that prevents the mother from carrying a child. It still doesn't change the fact that XX chromosomes = female and XY chromosomes = male.

Eggs are taken to a lab, and fertilized by hand...the vast majority of eggs and sperm are then distroyed and one or two inplanted into the womb.

Its the art of "creating" a baby...and it creates a lot of unwanted fertilized eggs....just coz they are forced into fertilization in a lab, doesnt take away from what they are.

That is not the system he created....Yes its only used for Mothers who cant conceive...but does that really matter??

My point is...if you are really going to be hardline about this, then you must also wipe out any notion of IVF and/or abortion. Its no use saying that one way is wrong because its against the natural order...and not saying that ALL things outside that order are wrong also. Course that becomes a bit hard when you think of the women dying to have children but not being able to conceive...

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 04:56 PM
Eggs are taken to a lab, and fertilized by hand...the vast majority of eggs and sperm are then distroyed and one or two inplanted into the womb.

Its the art of "creating" a baby...and it creates a lot of unwanted fertilized eggs....just coz they are forced into fertilization in a lab, doesnt take away from what they are.

That is not the system he created....Yes its only used for Mothers who cant conceive...but does that really matter??

Wrong. They don't destroy healthy eggs. They only take a few and if they are strong enough to survive procedure they are implanted. The life span in Petri dish is 3 days fresh/5 if frozen blast.The eggs are not fully fertilized they would be incapable of living in the dish. They have to be implanted and cling to the wall of the uterus to grow with help from Estrogen/Progesterone.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 05:08 PM
Wrong. They don't destroy healthy eggs. They only take a few and if they are strong enough to survive procedure they are implanted. The life span in Petri dish is 3 days fresh/5 if frozen blast.The eggs are not fully fertilized they would be incapable of living in the dish. They have to be implanted and cling to the wall of the uterus to grow with help from Estrogen/Progesterone.

I thought they took several, fertilized them all, and then inplanted the best one.

meaning, rejecting the others :huh:

I'm not talking about them distroying eggs...im talking about them distroying fertilized eggs surpluss to requirements.

and they have to be fully fertilized before going to gestate...what do you mean by "not fully fertilized" either they have all the genetic code of a new born, or there is just an egg :blink:

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I thought they took several, fertilized them all, and then inplanted the best one.

meaning, rejecting the others :huh:

I'm not talking about them distroying eggs...im talking about them distroying fertilized eggs surpluss to requirements.

and they have to be fully fertilized before going to gestate...what do you mean by "not fully fertilized" either they have all the genetic code of a new born, or there is just an egg :blink:

They are not viable without the hormones. When they are implanted on the wall they need the hormones to grow.. Upon conception in a natural pregnancy the womans body starts creating hormones immediately.

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:19 PM
Eggs are taken to a lab, and fertilized by hand...the vast majority of eggs and sperm are then distroyed and one or two inplanted into the womb.

Its the art of "creating" a baby...and it creates a lot of unwanted fertilized eggs....just coz they are forced into fertilization in a lab, doesnt take away from what they are.

That is not the system he created....Yes its only used for Mothers who cant conceive...but does that really matter??

My point is...if you are really going to be hardline about this, then you must also wipe out any notion of IVF and/or abortion. Its no use saying that one way is wrong because its against the natural order...and not saying that ALL things outside that order are wrong also. Course that becomes a bit hard when you think of the women dying to have children but not being able to conceive...

You should already know that I am against abortion under ANY circumstance.

As for in vitro fertilization, I would agree that disposing of fertilized eggs is the same as abortion. You are killing a human being. (EDIT: after reading Miss Foxy's post, I'm probably wrong on this one.)

However, disposing of unfertilized eggs is not abortion since it does not carry a completed strand of human DNA, so it is even less "human" than all of those hair and skin cells that you wash down the shower drain on a (hopefully) daily basis.

Also in vitro fertilization is simply taking the system that GOD designed and making it happen outside of the womb. It's still using the mechanisms that GOD put in place (since the scientists aren't actually stitching the DNA together by hand). But, even if it was something completely different than the system GOD designed, GOD still designed the brains the scientists used to create the system, so He still deserves the credit.

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:20 PM
They are not viable without the hormones. When they are implanted on the wall they need the hormones to grow.. Upon conception in a natural pregnancy the womans body starts creating hormones immediately.

I did not know that, so a fertilized egg inside a test tube is not considered a viable embryo. Thanks for the information. :cool:

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 05:21 PM
They are not viable without the hormones. When they are implanted on the wall they need the hormones to grow.. Upon conception in a natural pregnancy the womans body starts creating hormones immediately.

What your saying is, without Hormones they would die naturally.

But for those who believe that life occures at the moment of Fertilization...they are alive. Even if they die seconds later.

Babies are not viable if you dont feed them either...that doesnt make them any less alive for the period up until they time they expire.

See in GODs world Fertilization NEVER takes place without those hormones (as you point out) Simply not having the hormones should not detract from the fact life has been created, and then, left to die.

I know that this means some people can never have children, but have we stopped to consider if that might not be GODs will also? You cant condemn Abortion without condeming IVF if you believe that life begins at the moment of conception.

Sometimes I think the question we should ask ourselves as a race, is not "CAN WE..." but "SHOULD WE..."

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 05:24 PM
why do I bring this up here?

Because its easy to be black and white on an issue like Gender.

But try telling a loving, would-be parent...that they would be sinning if they used IVF.

That changes you from being black and white...to suddenly, seemingly being callous.

If we are to be fundemental...we must be fundemental across the whole board.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 05:26 PM
But, even if it was something completely different than the system GOD designed, GOD still designed the brains the scientists used to create the system, so He still deserves the credit.

Dangerous Argument.

:laugh:

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:31 PM
What your saying is, without Hormones they would die naturally.

But for those who believe that life occures at the moment of Fertilization...they are alive. Even if they die seconds later.

Babies are not viable if you dont feed them either...that doesnt make them any less alive for the period up until they time they expire.

See in GODs world Fertilization NEVER takes place without those hormones (as you point out) Simply not having the hormones should not detract from the fact life has been created, and then, left to die.

I know that this means some people can never have children, but have we stopped to consider if that might not be GODs will also? You cant condemn Abortion without condeming IVF if you believe that life begins at the moment of conception.

Sometimes I think the question we should ask ourselves as a race, is not "CAN WE..." but "SHOULD WE..."

Genetically, a fertilized egg is identical to an adult human at the moment of fertilization. That means that it has a completed, unique DNA structure and has all of the information it will ever need to form into a human being.

I don't really know enough about in vitro to get dogmatic about this, however. I'm sure there are ways that it can be conducted ethically, without disposing of fertilized human eggs.

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:32 PM
why do I bring this up here?

Because its easy to be black and white on an issue like Gender.

But try telling a loving, would-be parent...that they would be sinning if they used IVF.

That changes you from being black and white...to suddenly, seemingly being callous.

If we are to be fundemental...we must be fundemental across the whole board.

I don't see how one applies to the other.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 05:44 PM
I don't see how one applies to the other.

Then look at the answer you gave to me above :laugh:

You will condemn gays...but stop short of condemning IVF on the grounds of probable abortion

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:48 PM
Then look at the answer you gave to me above :laugh:

I fail to see the connection.

NateR
01-06-2012, 05:49 PM
You will condemn gays...but stop short of condemning IVF on the grounds of probable abortion

GOD condemns gays, not me. I'm simply agreeing with GOD.

I've already stated that I don't know enough about IVF to form an educated opinion yet.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 06:13 PM
GOD condemns gays, not me. I'm simply agreeing with GOD.

I've already stated that I don't know enough about IVF to form an educated opinion yet.

It doesnt matter. I hate indoctrination of the youth as much as any other man...but I also hate the fact that Christians basically only choose to focus on some sins...and not others....and go on, and on, and on, and on.

When you have experience of such a sin, then you end up constantly being bashed against the rocks. You end up being constantly reminded. You end up feeling bad about what you did, and what deep down, you might still want to do some times....and that hurts.

I shouldnt really blame you for it. But I do.

At any rate there is no escaping it. If I avoid it here...it will appear at work...if its not at work...its being mentioned in Church.

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Then look at the answer you gave to me above :laugh:

You will condemn gays...but stop short of condemning IVF on the grounds of probable abortion

With all due respect my dear.. The IVF is medically and socially not considered a natural conception. Don't debate this.

flo
01-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Thanks for the information, Miss Foxy, I didn't know that about IVF either.

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 07:11 PM
Thanks for the information, Miss Foxy, I didn't know that about IVF either.

Anytime.. I seem to be a pro at it :wink:

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 07:13 PM
I did not know that, so a fertilized egg inside a test tube is not considered a viable embryo. Thanks for the information. :cool:

No it needs Estrogen/Progesterone to survive. That is why IVF patients undergo injections before, during, and a few weeks after.The injection is the eggs lifeline literally. The body naturally makes the hormone when conceived naturally. The hormonal influx is also contributed to morning sickness. So imagine someone having to trick her body with chemicals... I say they deserve a medal! lol.:wacko:

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 08:20 PM
not considered a natural conception.

its still conception though...no :huh:

Miss Foxy
01-06-2012, 08:25 PM
its still conception though...no :huh:

No love it's not. The body won't pick up pregnancy for about 11 days.. I see your point just want to get the facts vs fiction straight. It's a highly controversial subject.

Tyburn
01-06-2012, 08:26 PM
No love it's not. The body won't pick up pregnancy for about 11 days.. I see your point just want to get the facts vs fiction straight. It's a highly controversial subject.

:blink: But if the egg isnt fertilized...I dont see what point there is in putting it back into the...oh...nevermind :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
01-06-2012, 09:09 PM
Wrong. They don't destroy healthy eggs. They only take a few and if they are strong enough to survive procedure they are implanted. The life span in Petri dish is 3 days fresh/5 if frozen blast.The eggs are not fully fertilized they would be incapable of living in the dish. They have to be implanted and cling to the wall of the uterus to grow with help from Estrogen/Progesterone.

foxy is just trollin guys .. all you need is a turkey baster and voila ...