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Crisco
08-17-2011, 11:03 PM
I've come to the conclusion that low taxes do not create jobs.

I consider myself a republican and believe in personal responsibility however, the reason behind lower tax rates for the super rich don't appear to be very good.

Taxes are still rock bottom and job growth is stagnat. Every company I've researched thus far is sitting on piles of money and they are working their current employee's to the bone for less and less money.


What if we offered tax breaks for corporations who create x amount of jobs and keep them for x amount of time?

Instead of just keeping taxes low why not raise them to pre-Bush levels and then offer tax incentives for companies who are actually doing something positive for the country.

adamt
08-17-2011, 11:24 PM
oh okay then:rolleyes:

lets raise taxes and see how that goes:frantics:

i'm sure the jobs will be coming outta the woodwork:blink:

Mark
08-18-2011, 02:41 AM
Is Obama doing anything for job creation? Or is he on the campaign trail again?

flo
08-18-2011, 02:58 AM
Is Obama doing anything for job creation? Or is he on the campaign trail again?

He's still on the campaign trail, after which he heads to Martha's Vineyard for vacation. Of course, he said he's not campaigning, that way we taxpayers get to pay for the Darth Vader Bus and his "listening summits". But he feels our pain! He said he will come up with another plan to create jobs in September!




:no:

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 02:58 AM
Is Obama doing anything for job creation?

It's in the news. [Original EDIT]It appears he has done more in his 4 years than our former president did in 8.[End original Edit] EDIT: Not sure if this is actually the case, need to do more research.

New EDIT: What are the companies that got bailed out doing to create jobs that are now sitting on mounds of cash? Some like Ford Motors are building new plants...............in India.

Mark
08-18-2011, 03:05 AM
It's in the news. It appears he has done more in his 4 years than our former president did in 8.

Whats he doing?

NateR
08-18-2011, 03:06 AM
It's in the news. It appears he has done more in his 4 years than our former president did in 8.

Of course, it's in the news, so it MUST be true. :rolleyes:

flo
08-18-2011, 03:12 AM
I think maybe we are talking about two things here. The push by the dems to increase tax rates for those making $250,000 or more a year won't do anything for jobs, it's meant to bring in revenue to pay interest on our $14,000,000,000,000.00 debt and - they hope - to bring down our deficit. The problem with that is, historically, Congress spends more than they take in. Always have. Both parties.

This is why I support a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. It doesn't guarantee they will balance it but makes it harder for either side to keep spending like drunken pirates.

I think any tax increases will slow growth and job creation. Just my 2 cents, I guess we will have to see how things are in a year or so.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:12 AM
Whats he doing?

It's in the news.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:13 AM
Of course, it's in the news, so it MUST be true. :rolleyes:

Did I state anything of the sort? If you wish to know the news, try reading it.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:17 AM
I've come to the conclusion that low taxes do not create jobs.



I think that you are correct Crisco. Just like trickle down economics didn't work either.

Silverback
08-18-2011, 03:19 AM
Is Obama doing anything for job creation? Or is he on the campaign trail again?

First question, a big NO, the second question, a bigger YES. I heard that America will be brought down from within, that is the only job he is doing well on.:scared0011::scared0011::scared0011:

NateR
08-18-2011, 03:22 AM
It's in the news. [Original EDIT]It appears he has done more in his 4 years than our former president did in 8.[End original Edit] EDIT: Not sure if this is actually the case, need to do more research.

New EDIT: What are the companies that got bailed out doing to create jobs that are now sitting on mounds of cash? Some like Ford Motors are building new plants...............in India.

Ford never got bailed out. I believe, it was just GM and Chrysler. And I think most people knew that bailing out the automakers wouldn't create new jobs, but would do just the opposite.

The media was responsible for Obama getting elected, even though he was clearly unqualified for the job of President, so they're going to lie and spin every fact as much as they can between now and November 2012 in order to get Obama reelected.

Mark
08-18-2011, 03:25 AM
just back up what you say. Your just talkn to talk.

flo
08-18-2011, 03:26 AM
It's in the news. [Original EDIT]It appears he has done more in his 4 years than our former president did in 8.[End original Edit] EDIT: Not sure if this is actually the case, need to do more research.



That's just not true. The jobs that Pres. Obama takes credit for are basically public sector jobs, they exist from the creation of more government bureaucracies. They produce nothing.

Look at this graph.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/unemployment.jpg

The downturn started in 2007 with the housing market going in the toilet. So many jobs were affected by that downturn, the trickle down was horrible.

And why bring up Bush? He made mistakes but that's past history. People out of work aren't obsessed with blaming Bush, they want jobs. Obama's economic policies have failed, either he's in denial or worse.

NateR
08-18-2011, 03:27 AM
I think that you are correct Crisco. Just like trickle down economics didn't work either.

I believe the economic boom of the 1990s was due in part to trickle down economics. Even if it wasn't, it sure seemed to get us out of the financial mess that Jimmy Carter left this country in.

Preach
08-18-2011, 03:29 AM
Ford never took or needed a bailout which is why I left selling gm and now sell Ford. Secondly Obama has yet to fullfill any of his campaign promises. The only thing he's good at is talking. There's doers and talkers and we all know what he does

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:36 AM
Ford never got bailed out. I believe, it was just GM and Chrysler. And I think most people knew that bailing out the automakers wouldn't create new jobs, but would do just the opposite.

I stand corrected.


The media was responsible for Obama getting elected, even though he was clearly unqualified for the job of President, so they're going to lie and spin every fact as much as they can between now and November 2012 in order to get Obama reelected.

If the media was responsible for Obama getting elected, then it must be true that the media was responsible for Bush getting elected.

They don't need to lie and spin anything, look who the R's put on the ballot last election. It's going to be the same this year, only thing different is Bachmann may replace Palin. If Bachmann happens to run and win the presidency, we'll have our first gay first husband in the white house. 2 firsts in one election, wow.:laugh:

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:39 AM
I believe the economic boom of the 1990s was due in part to trickle down economics. Even if it wasn't, it sure seemed to get us out of the financial mess that Jimmy Carter left this country in.

Trickle down economics was one of the biggest farces in history. I'd love to see some evidence that it did anything positive.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:42 AM
Secondly Obama has yet to fullfill any of his campaign promises.

That is a complete and utter lie.

NateR
08-18-2011, 03:45 AM
Trickle down economics was one of the biggest farces in history.

You're going to need to back that statement up with some facts.

Preach
08-18-2011, 03:51 AM
That is a complete and utter lie.

Really so what date was it he closed guantanamo bay? Now when was it we got that health care? What day was it we got out of Iraq and Afganistan? How about all those jobs and how he has improved the economy? What about cutting the deficit in half? He also promised to get the unemployment to 8. The utter lie here came from Obama

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:56 AM
That's just not true. The jobs that Pres. Obama takes credit for are basically public sector jobs, they exist from the creation of more government bureaucracies. They produce nothing.

This page says it is true. Cage Fight (http://minx.cc/?post=310374)


And why bring up Bush? He made mistakes but that's past history. People out of work aren't obsessed with blaming Bush, they want jobs. Obama's economic policies have failed, either he's in denial or worse.

I bring up Bush because this is a pro-Bush site and an anti-Obama site. It's okay to slam Obama but not show how Bush ruined this nation with his dismal performance. There are a lot of things I'm not happy about with the Obama presidency, but it pales in comparison to the Bush years. The outright lies stated on here about Obama get to stay, but I have seen comments about Bush get the ax and magically disappear.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 03:59 AM
Really so what date was it he closed guantanamo bay? Now when was it we got that health care? What day was it we got out of Iraq and Afganistan? How about all those jobs and how he has improved the economy? What about cutting the deficit in half? He also promised to get the unemployment to 8. The utter lie here came from Obama

Do yourself a favor and research what you stated. You stated this:

Originally Posted by Preach View Post
Secondly Obama has yet to fullfill any of his campaign promises.

Research what promises he has kept before you paint yourself into a corner. You lied, admit and move on. Sure he hasn't kept them all, but he's kept a whole bunch of them.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:01 AM
You're going to need to back that statement up with some facts.

How about you first back up yours. My statement was that TDE was a farce. You do know what a farce is right?

NateR
08-18-2011, 04:02 AM
but I have seen comments about Bush get the ax and magically disappear.

The comments about Bush that are deleted usually only amount to "Bush is an idiot" type of remarks. So, you're not missing anything.

Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theories. Sometimes the truth really just isn't that interesting. :rolleyes:

flo
08-18-2011, 04:04 AM
Really so what date was it he closed guantanamo bay? Now when was it we got that health care? What day was it we got out of Iraq and Afganistan? How about all those jobs and how he has improved the economy? What about cutting the deficit in half? He also promised to get the unemployment to 8. The utter lie here came from Obama

Don't forget about the continuous promises of "transparency". He promised the voters (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/517/health-care-reform-public-sessions-C-SPAN/) he would have the debate on health care, etc. covered by C-Span. C-Span even pleaded (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/05/c-span-challenges-congress-open-health-care-talks-tv-coverage/) to be allowed to cover the negotiations.

NateR
08-18-2011, 04:05 AM
How about you first back up yours. My statement was that TDE was a farce. You do know what a farce is right?

You're the first one to mention trickle down economics in this thread, so the burden of proof is on you.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:05 AM
The comments about Bush that are deleted usually only amount to "Bush is an idiot" type of remarks. So, you're not missing anything.

Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theories. Sometimes the truth really just isn't that interesting. :rolleyes:

It's not a conspiracy theory if you admit you remove comments about Bush.

flo
08-18-2011, 04:09 AM
This page says it is true. Cage Fight (http://minx.cc/?post=310374)


Yes, technically it is. Here is the entire page you quote from:

Cage Match: Bush vs. Obama Job Creation

People were asking about the libs' favorite job creation meme this year: Did Obama really create more jobs in 2010 than Bush did in his entire 8 years? Well, yes, but it's a stupid statement. Here's the data (all numbers are in thousands):

Bush Obama
1/31/01 1/31/09 Difference 12/31/09 12/31/10 Difference
Total Jobs 132,469 133,549 1,080 129,588 130,712 1,124
Private Jobs 111,634 110,961 -673 107,107 108,453 1,346


So you can see that the statement is strictly true: Obama did create more private sector jobs and more total jobs in one year than Bush did in 8.

But that doesn't stop this from being an utterly dishonest statement. What they're really saying is that they're going to count both recessions that Bush went through against him, but leave out most of the recession in Obama's term. Here's a fairer comparison, looking at both men's periods of growth:

Bush Obama
7/31/03 12/31/07 Difference 12/31/09 12/31/10 Difference
Total Jobs 129,864 137,951 8,087 129,588 130,712 1,124
Private Jobs 108231 115574 7,253 107,107 108,453 1,346

...or maybe just comparing their first two years (even though the dot.com recession started during Bush's term, while the recent recession was half-over when Obama took over):

Bush Obama
1/31/01 12/31/02 Difference 1/31/09 12/31/10 Difference
Total Jobs 132,469 130,183 -2,281 133,549 130,712 -2,837
Private Jobs 111,634 108,595 -3,039 110,961 108,453 -2,508

Now, I'm not a big fan of Bush's economic policies (except by reference to Obama's), but I think it's pretty clear that the Left's cherry-picking of time periods is ridiculous. Not that comparing two Presidencies with different circumstances isn't ridiculous from the start.

This historical foolery also raised its head during the tax cut brouhaha. Bush's tax cuts, implemented first due to revenue surpluses and then as economic stimulus, are considered to have been irresponsible. But Obama's extension of the tax cuts is considered to be a necessary step in economic recovery. Somehow the pundits have forgotten that Bush had his own recession to deal with, and an enemy actively devoted to the economic downfall of the US.

flo
08-18-2011, 04:12 AM
Bush ruined this nation with his dismal performance.

How exactly did he ruin the nation?

NateR
08-18-2011, 04:12 AM
It's not a conspiracy theory if you admit you remove comments about Bush.

I've always admitted to it. During Bush's presidency we got enough baseless accusations and insults thrown at George W. Bush just about everywhere else; so I didn't want this forum to become a home for that nonsense as well.

I'll continue to delete anything about George W. Bush that I deem to be an unfair or baseless attack. If you don't like that, then there are plenty of other websites out there where you can slam Bush to your heart's content. Just don't bring it here.

Preach
08-18-2011, 04:13 AM
Do yourself a favor and research what you stated. You stated this:



Research what promises he has kept before you paint yourself into a corner. You lied, admit and move on. Sure he hasn't kept them all, but he's kept a whole bunch of them.

If there a whole bunch then save me the trouble and post the top 5

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:18 AM
You're the first one to mention trickle down economics in this thread, so the burden of proof is on you.

I can already hear you complain, but here are a few pulled off the top of the search engine.

1 (http://agreetodisagree.me/2011/02/22/newsflash-trickledown-economics-work/)

2 (http://money.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977174033)

3 Happens to be a forum, read the first post for some ideas on why it doesn't work (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1578019/pg1)

4 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/business/12scene.html)

5 (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/06/30/trickle-down-economics-fails-to-deliver-as-promised/)

6 (http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/11/warren-buffett-trickle-down-economics-doesnt-work.html)

7 (http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html)

Care to show your work now?

Now realize that in order to expedite this, I didn't get to fully read these pages, only gloss over it to see if it met the criteria.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:19 AM
If there a whole bunch then save me the trouble and post the top 5

Admit you lied and I may, even though you should be able to do it yourself. EDIT: Lie is a harsh word. My apologies. Admit you made a mistake.

Neezar
08-18-2011, 04:19 AM
Yes, technically it is. Here is the entire page you quote from:

Thank you, Flo. I would have never read it if you hadn't posted it. Good stuff there.

Look at the unemployment rate. That is what counts.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:26 AM
Yes, technically it is. Here is the entire page you quote from:

I did skim the whole page and saw the points you highlighted. So technically, I was correct.:):happydancing:

Preach
08-18-2011, 04:26 AM
Admit you lied and I may, even though you should be able to do it yourself. EDIT: Lie is a harsh word. My apologies. Admit you made a mistake.

I will admit only if you admit that Obama is the worst President in the history of the US and that he continues to put us in a deeper whole. And that 4 Jimmy Carters in a roll would be better than one Obama term. And also admit that you deep down wish you were a pro bush fan

NateR
08-18-2011, 04:27 AM
I can already hear you complain, but here are a few pulled off the top of the search engine.

1 (http://agreetodisagree.me/2011/02/22/newsflash-trickledown-economics-work/)

2 (http://money.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977174033)

3 Happens to be a forum, read the first post for some ideas on why it doesn't work (http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1578019/pg1)

4 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/business/12scene.html)

5 (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/06/30/trickle-down-economics-fails-to-deliver-as-promised/)

6 (http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/11/warren-buffett-trickle-down-economics-doesnt-work.html)

7 (http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html)

Care to show your work now?

Now realize that in order to expedite this, I didn't get to fully read these pages, only gloss over it to see if it met the criteria.

Okay, I thought you knew some facts that prove trickle down economics is a "farce." Turns out you just know how to use Google and you didn't even take the time to read the entirety of any of the "evidence" you posted. After glossing over the links you provided, I see some claims that trickle down economics doesn't work from a few questionable sources, but no evidence that it is a "farce."

BTW, liberal blogs aren't evidence. They are opinion pieces and you know what everyone says about opinions.

I'll continue to wait patiently for some real evidence. Take your time.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:39 AM
I will admit only if you admit that Obama is the worst President in the history of the US and that he continues to put us in a deeper whole. And that 4 Jimmy Carters in a roll would be better than one Obama term. And also admit that you deep down wish you were a pro bush fan

Forget it, you lied then. I gave you the opportunity to acknowledge your mistake and you don't wish to man up to it, instead trying to coerce me into saying something stupid so you can feel better about your lie.

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 04:43 AM
Okay, I thought you knew some facts that prove trickle down economics is a "farce." Turns out you just know how to use Google and you didn't even take the time to read the entirety of any of the "evidence" you posted. After glossing over the links you provided, I see some claims that trickle down economics doesn't work from a few questionable sources, but no evidence that it is a "farce."

BTW, liberal blogs aren't evidence. They are opinion pieces and you know what everyone says about opinions.

I'll continue to wait patiently for some real evidence. Take your time.

Do you even know what a farce is? I seriously doubt it. I was honest about what I linked to and honest enough to say I didn't get to fully read it due to time constraints.

Care to show me how it's done and show some proof that it worked? My money is on you running away.

Lol, I could write your replies, they are always the same spiel.

flo
08-18-2011, 07:08 AM
I did skim the whole page and saw the points you highlighted. So technically, I was correct.:):happydancing:

Yes, you were. But I'd still like to see you post 5 of Obama's campaign promises which he kept that Preach asked for. That's not unreasonable since you said he kept "a whole bunch".

Buzzard
08-18-2011, 08:02 AM
WADR flo, I always provide things when asked, but rarely get the same in return. It's a very easy search which I am positive that you can find on your own. EDIT: Here's one to chew on. Obama fulfilled his promise to take out Bin Laden. Bush was unable to accomplish this.

As for your earlier question regarding how Bush ruined the nation; the first two things that come to mind are the Patriot Act, and allowing torture. Those two alone are enough to turn my stomach. I know others on here condone torture on suspected criminals, I'm not one of them. I liked Bush at first, he lost my respect on his own. EDIT: There are things I'm not happy about with Obama too, please understand that.

Chris F
08-18-2011, 08:47 AM
I've come to the conclusion that low taxes do not create jobs.

I consider myself a republican and believe in personal responsibility however, the reason behind lower tax rates for the super rich don't appear to be very good.

Taxes are still rock bottom and job growth is stagnat. Every company I've researched thus far is sitting on piles of money and they are working their current employee's to the bone for less and less money.


What if we offered tax breaks for corporations who create x amount of jobs and keep them for x amount of time?

Instead of just keeping taxes low why not raise them to pre-Bush levels and then offer tax incentives for companies who are actually doing something positive for the country.

Income taxes are low but corporate taxes are still way high. It is those tax rates that send companies to Mexico, etc. Also many compaies do business through dummy accounts in other countries to avoid theses taxes and when that money is tied in an overseas account is does no multistage the ecoonmy which hinder growth. If those taxes were lowered and that money was allowed to be invested in the company and a reasonable rate than job growth would rise and so would incomes of the middles class. I wish I could better explain macro-economics but this type of forum makes that real hard.

Income taxes are irreverent to the equation because the rich have good lawyers who get them out of paying and the poor do not pay any to start with and even get a rebate for money they did not earn. So the middle 70 % pay the bulk of the bill.

County Mike
08-18-2011, 12:38 PM
I believe in trickle down economics. If it works for crap, it should work for everything else.

Twinsmama
08-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Is Obama doing anything for job creation? Or is he on the campaign trail again?

i believe today he is heading to napa valley for vacation. he's been so busy improving our governament he thinks he deserves a family vacation.:laugh:

Dethbob
08-18-2011, 01:53 PM
When the Democrats took control of the economy in 2006, everyone I knew had at least one job and my company had enough work to carry through the winter for the first time ever.

Within months of the Democrat congress swearing in, our company was gone and half the people I knew were unemployed. And things got worse, not better, when Obama came to save us.

You can link all the websites you want, and call everyone a liar and a farce till your blue in the face, but Bush got results, Obama has not.

rearnakedchoke
08-18-2011, 02:21 PM
i am not an economist, but i don't see how tax rates affect (or is it effect) job creation ... are you talking about tax rates for employers? i guess that i can see that .. the way it seems to me is that the media has blown the economy issue so far out of proportion (i know its bad) but it has scared people to not spend for fear of a great depression ... people need to spend more and stimulate the economy ...

Crisco
08-18-2011, 03:22 PM
When the Democrats took control of the economy in 2006, everyone I knew had at least one job and my company had enough work to carry through the winter for the first time ever.

Within months of the Democrat congress swearing in, our company was gone and half the people I knew were unemployed. And things got worse, not better, when Obama came to save us.

You can link all the websites you want, and call everyone a liar and a farce till your blue in the face, but Bush got results, Obama has not.

Not trying to belittle you but I don't think the swearing in of the congress made your company collapse.

Depending upon of course what your business was

Dethbob
08-18-2011, 03:49 PM
I don't think the swearing in of the congress made your company collapse.

I’m not sure if you’re serious.

To play this as it lays, I would say that the swearing in itself was not the problem, but rather that the policies they set AFTER they were sworn in were what started the apple cart tipping over.

Not trying to belittle you

Oh, good.

Depending upon of course what your business was

Let’s just say that by the time Obamanomics was done with it, it was shovel ready.

Crisco
08-18-2011, 04:25 PM
I’m not sure if you’re serious.

To play this as it lays, I would say that the swearing in itself was not the problem, but rather that the policies they set AFTER they were sworn in were what started the apple cart tipping over.



Oh, good.



Let’s just say that by the time Obamanomics was done with it, it was shovel ready.

I ment what exactly did they do that effected your business that it shuttered so quickly considering you said there was work to do?

flo
08-18-2011, 04:36 PM
Let’s just say that by the time Obamanomics was done with it, it was shovel ready.

No moss growing on you, Dethbob, it would have taken me a week to come up with that.

:laugh: :laugh:

Dethbob
08-18-2011, 05:29 PM
I ment what exactly did they do that effected your business that it shuttered so quickly considering you said there was work to do?

We were in construction, underground utilities and site prep. When the Dems rolled in, they were bragging about how they were going to punish the rich (that is, everyone’s employers) by making them pay their fair share. That fair share was going to be my paycheck. *poof*

Vizion
08-19-2011, 12:58 AM
Of course, it's in the news, so it MUST be true. :rolleyes:

:laugh:

Buzzard
08-19-2011, 01:04 AM
When the Democrats took control of the economy in 2006, everyone I knew had at least one job and my company had enough work to carry through the winter for the first time ever.

Within months of the Democrat congress swearing in, our company was gone and half the people I knew were unemployed. And things got worse, not better, when Obama came to save us.

You can link all the websites you want, and call everyone a liar and a farce till your blue in the face, but Bush got results, Obama has not.

The only person I called a liar is the one who lied. Surely you can see that his statement was blatantly untrue. If not, time to clean the stuff you've shoveled, out of your eyes.

Could it be possible that perhaps the company you worked for didn't have the best business strategy and should shoulder the blame for their own demise?

Yeah, Bush got results. He managed to lose the financial gains made during the Clinton presidency. For the record, I wasn't a Clinton fan.

Preach
08-19-2011, 01:37 AM
The only person I called a liar is the one who lied. Surely you can see that his statement was blatantly untrue. If not, time to clean the stuff you've shoveled, out of your eyes.

Could it be possible that perhaps the company you worked for didn't have the best business strategy and should shoulder the blame for their own demise?

Yeah, Bush got results. He managed to lose the financial gains made during the Clinton presidency. For the record, I wasn't a Clinton fan.

I think I want some of whatever your on. Because it would be great to live the rest of Obamas term in denial

Buzzard
08-19-2011, 09:05 AM
I think I want some of whatever your on. Because it would be great to live the rest of Obamas term in denial


And insulting my intelligence by comparing me to a drug addict is not going to add any credibility to your argument whatsoever.

I put Nate's response in from another post because I know he'd be of the same opinion but wouldn't address it in this post. The sad thing is that you have no argument, and appear incapable of making an argument.

It seems you're on something that clouds reality. You lied plain and simple, yet haven't the moral fiber to admit it. Preach that to your sheeple. You sir are the one wading in the river known as De-Nile.

Preach
08-19-2011, 03:24 PM
I put Nate's response in from another post because I know he'd be of the same opinion but wouldn't address it in this post. The sad thing is that you have no argument, and appear incapable of making an argument.

It seems you're on something that clouds reality. You lied plain and simple, yet haven't the moral fiber to admit it. Preach that to your sheeple. You sir are the one wading in the river known as De-Nile.

Well like every other liberal all you can do is smoke screen the issues with personal insults but that's fine it is a free country. Or atleast for the time being that is. Has Obama accomplished anything while in office? Yes but they are so insignificant they aren't even worth mentioning. The only big accomplishment he has made is brought more people together that are against him and his policies. He had it made for 2 years and during that time the liberals could have implemented a lot of their policies but instead they wasted the opportunity. They have continued to prove that they can't even agree among themselves.
And the worst part about it is that you and I and america suffer because of it. They (the liberals) are so caught up on issues that affect their own wallets that we the general public are the ones that oft times get overlooked. You can place all the smoke screens you want, can make all the insults till your blue in the face. But unless Obama gets off vacation and focuses on the importance of the economy, and the condition of the nation he will find himself on a permanent vacation from the white house. Truth of the matter is he has never been ready for the leadership of the nation and quite frankly he never will be. He has been brought up in the corrupt liberal politics of cook county and it has clouded his judgement.
So with that said you might want to get out of your so called denial river cause I think the sun and water are clouding your view

Buzzard
08-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Well like every other liberal all you can do is smoke screen the issues with personal insults but that's fine it is a free country.

Sorry preach, I'm not a liberal. I have some liberal leanings as well as some conservative leanings. I'm a centrist. You're the one who started the insults against me. Sure I called you a liar because you are and did, yet still refuse to acknowledge it.

Or atleast for the time being that is. Has Obama accomplished anything while in office? Yes but they are so insignificant they aren't even worth mentioning. The only big accomplishment he has made is brought more people together that are against him and his policies. He had it made for 2 years and during that time the liberals could have implemented a lot of their policies but instead they wasted the opportunity.

Did you forget this? R"s real agenda (http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/the-republicans-real-agenda-surprise-its/)

Wow, so getting rid of Osama Bin Laden is insignificant? I guess you'd wish him to still be free to plan more attacks. How very thoughtful of you.


They have continued to prove that they can't even agree among themselves.
And the worst part about it is that you and I and america suffer because of it. They (the liberals) are so caught up on issues that affect their own wallets that we the general public are the ones that oft times get overlooked.

You're quite myopic when it comes to reality. It seems the R's and conservatives are only thinking about their wallets too. It seem that not many in politics seem to care about the middle class; they look after themselves first and want the middle class to get by on the scraps that trickle down, if they allow any to trickle down.

You can place all the smoke screens you want, can make all the insults till your blue in the face. But unless Obama gets off vacation and focuses on the importance of the economy, and the condition of the nation he will find himself on a permanent vacation from the white house.

Where did I insult you? If I call a liar a liar it's not an insult but the truth. I tried to give you a chance to rectify your mistake, you passed and stuck to your lie.

I didn't see you complaining about the vacations your illustrious Bush always seemed to be on. As a matter of fact, Bush took more vacation days as of August of last year. Don't know the current numbers, but is seems your only a one sided complainer.


Truth of the matter is he has never been ready for the leadership of the nation and quite frankly he never will be. He has been brought up in the corrupt liberal politics of cook county and it has clouded his judgement.
So with that said you might want to get out of your so called denial river cause I think the sun and water are clouding your view

I see reality. I acknowledge that Obama hasn't done all I have wanted or accomplished all he promised. I'm not blind to that fact. Unlike you I will admit that he needs work. What I won't do is lie and stick to my guns when shown that I have lied and play the victim card. If I'm shown to be incorrect on a matter, I own up to it and move on. I get it, you don't like him and no matter what he does, you never will. What I don't get is why you stick to your blatant false statement and overlook the crap done to impede progress by your fellow conservatives.

Preach
08-19-2011, 05:51 PM
Sorry preach, I'm not a liberal. I have some liberal leanings as well as some conservative leanings. I'm a centrist. You're the one who started the insults against me. Sure I called you a liar because you are and did, yet still refuse to acknowledge it.



Did you forget this? R"s real agenda (http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/the-republicans-real-agenda-surprise-its/)

Wow, so getting rid of Osama Bin Laden is insignificant? I guess you'd wish him to still be free to plan more attacks. How very thoughtful of you.



You're quite myopic when it comes to reality. It seems the R's and conservatives are only thinking about their wallets too. It seem that not many in politics seem to care about the middle class; they look after themselves first and want the middle class to get by on the scraps that trickle down, if they allow any to trickle down.



Where did I insult you? If I call a liar a liar it's not an insult but the truth. I tried to give you a chance to rectify your mistake, you passed and stuck to your lie.

I didn't see you complaining about the vacations your illustrious Bush always seemed to be on. As a matter of fact, Bush took more vacation days as of August of last year. Don't know the current numbers, but is seems your only a one sided complainer.



I see reality. I acknowledge that Obama hasn't done all I have wanted or accomplished all he promised. I'm not blind to that fact. Unlike you I will admit that he needs work. What I won't do is lie and stick to my guns when shown that I have lied and play the victim card. If I'm shown to be incorrect on a matter, I own up to it and move on. I get it, you don't like him and no matter what he does, you never will. What I don't get is why you stick to your blatant false statement and overlook the crap done to impede progress by your fellow conservatives.

First and foremost Obama did not capture or kill Osama. That was Seal team 6. And if you can show me this so called lie I will owe to it. However your accusations about me and my character are an insult beings you have never met me and you are only reading emotionless comments on a message board. As far as my conversation with you it is over. I find you immature and insulting and I will not smear my character with the likes of you. If you want to talk about something more like mma I will oblige

Chris F
08-19-2011, 06:57 PM
i am not an economist, but i don't see how tax rates affect (or is it effect) job creation ... are you talking about tax rates for employers? i guess that i can see that .. the way it seems to me is that the media has blown the economy issue so far out of proportion (i know its bad) but it has scared people to not spend for fear of a great depression ... people need to spend more and stimulate the economy ...

not sure if you meant this for me or not but cor prate tax rates have everything to do with jobs. When a company pays less taxes they have more revenue to expand, do more marketing , etc etc. This in turn means more hiring, raises, and in some cases they add on or expand their market share. This is why Nevada is popular for companies because they have no state corporate taxes. So when a business owner has more money most if not nearly all reinvest it in their business and that grows the economy because their employes get more work get raises etc etc. As for a fear of a great depression. Well our economy is already worse than that era but today we have the liberal social net and so the number are cooked and a lot of people who would have gone hungry in that time is living fat of Uncle Sam.

Buzzard
08-19-2011, 08:06 PM
First and foremost Obama did not capture or kill Osama. That was Seal team 6. And if you can show me this so called lie I will owe to it. However your accusations about me and my character are an insult beings you have never met me and you are only reading emotionless comments on a message board. As far as my conversation with you it is over. I find you immature and insulting and I will not smear my character with the likes of you. If you want to talk about something more like mma I will oblige

Secondly Obama has yet to fullfill any of his campaign promises.

Here is your lie. You were called out on it and given numerous chances to own up to it. My accusation about you is spot on accurate. You should be insulted at your dishonesty and your immaturity. What about your insult to me?

Of course Obama didn't personally capture OBL, that's ridiculous for you to even bring up. Nice try at deflection though. That was one of Obama's campaign promises though, to get Osama. It was on his orders that Seal Team 6 went and got him. At least Obama sent the team and got him regardless of what Pakistan thought, unlike when Rumsfeld under Bush wussed out.


" A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials.

The target was a meeting of Qaeda leaders that intelligence officials thought included Ayman al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden’s top deputy and the man believed to run the terrorist group’s operations.

But the mission was called off after Donald H. Rumsfeld, then the defense secretary, rejected an 11th-hour appeal by Porter J. Goss, then the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, officials said. Members of a Navy Seals unit in parachute gear had already boarded C-130 cargo planes in Afghanistan when the mission was canceled, said a former senior intelligence official involved in the planning."

From: http://www.globaldashboard.org/2011/05/02/obama-rumsfeld-pakista/


If you wish to end this discussion, that's fine but don't blame me because I called you out and you got offended because you got caught. I didn't smear you, you smeared yourself.

Buzzard
08-19-2011, 08:13 PM
not sure if you meant this for me or not but cor prate tax rates have everything to do with jobs. When a company pays less taxes they have more revenue to put into the CEO's pockets. This in turn means more money for the top management and the peons can suck it. This is why Nevada is popular for companies because they have no state corporate taxes. So when a business owner has more money most if not nearly all keep it for themselves and their cronies while screwing the hardworking folks who are the backbone of the company. As for a fear of a great depression. Well our economy is already worse than that era but today we have the conservatives and liberals who cook the numbers and a lot of people who would have gone hungry in that time get to eat.

FIFY:wink:

Crisco
08-19-2011, 08:46 PM
FIFY:wink:

Your summary is actually pretty spot on.

Humans beings are greedy bastards no matter who they are or who they work for. Power corrupts.

Both parties suck and generally any man that has made it to the ranks of the elite had to be quite the scum bag to get there.


I don't care what anyone says it doesn't matter who gets a elected nothing changes except the rhetoric.

Dethbob
08-19-2011, 09:02 PM
The only person I called a liar is the one who lied. Surely you can see that his statement was blatantly untrue. If not, time to clean the stuff you've shoveled, out of your eyes.

Could it be possible that perhaps the company you worked for didn't have the best business strategy and should shoulder the blame for their own demise?

Yeah, Bush got results. He managed to lose the financial gains made during the Clinton presidency. For the record, I wasn't a Clinton fan.

If the business strategy was faulty, why was the company doing so well before? Hmm...

I suppose all those millions of people who have lost their jobs since Obama took office should shoulder the blame for that as well?

Also, since we’re not being liars and all, I should point out that the gains made ‘during the Clinton presidency’ were made under the leadership of a Republican majority.

Chris F
08-19-2011, 11:36 PM
FIFY:wink:

you wonder why people say you are liberal also you should not call be liars if you toss them around so flippantly yourself. You are ignorantly comparing big business (which is less than 20 % of the companies out there) to small business which is the more heavily taxed and the higher employer over all. Stop drinking the Pelosi kool aid and educate yourself on the fact Buzz

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 01:26 AM
Your summary is actually pretty spot on.

Humans beings are greedy bastards no matter who they are or who they work for. Power corrupts.

Both parties suck and generally any man that has made it to the ranks of the elite had to be quite the scum bag to get there.


I don't care what anyone says it doesn't matter who gets a elected nothing changes except the rhetoric.

I agree with you here too. I find it refreshing that you see the big picture and take a stand against members of your own party when they need to be called out. You are completely correct when you say power corrupts and I also agree with your statement of both parties suck.

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 01:33 AM
If the business strategy was faulty, why was the company doing so well before? Hmm...

I suppose all those millions of people who have lost their jobs since Obama took office should shoulder the blame for that as well?

Also, since we’re not being liars and all, I should point out that the gains made ‘during the Clinton presidency’ were made under the leadership of a Republican majority.

Just as times changes, strategies need to change with them. Just because something works once doesn't mean it always will.

I never said the people who lost jobs should shoulder the blame. If the companies which they worked for made bad business decisions, they got caught up in it. If the people caused their own misfortunes by slacking on the job and performing poorly, sure they should shoulder their own blame.

Did I lie when I made my statement about the gains under the Clinton administration? I acknowledge the leadership of the Republican majority during that administration. That's the way the checks and balances are supposed to work. It worked well.

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 01:50 AM
you wonder why people say you are liberal also you should not call be liars if you toss them around so flippantly yourself. You are ignorantly comparing big business (which is less than 20 % of the companies out there) to small business which is the more heavily taxed and the higher employer over all. Stop drinking the Pelosi kool aid and educate yourself on the fact Buzz

I know why people consider me a liberal. Anyone who isn't a conservative has to be a damn librul dagnabbit. If you talk bad of Bush, you're a librul fool. If you don't believe in a god, you're a damned librul heathen. I get it.

If you claim that I have lied in my posts, kindly point them out. You have no problem calling folks out, I don't see why you wouldn't with me.

Why would you think I am a fan of Pelosi? An ignorant assumption on your part.

I've worked for both big and small businesses, and been a part owner of a small business. In all of them I have seen the waste and poor practices. I got out of my ownership due to piss poor decisions and waste of which I had no control.

I watched my friends business go down the tubes when he wouldn't curtail frivolous expenses and change his strategy. I showed him the numbers and offered suggestions. I can't force people to change what I don't have control over.

In my current big business employment, I've seen massive profits and money in the bank wasted on unnecessary things, spending money just because they could. I and other employees offered many cost cutting ideas only to see none of them implemented because we were just lowly worker bees. They wouldn't even listen to the supervisors, why would they listen to me.

One thing I am good at is managing money and tossing unneeded expenses out. Those who have listened and implemented some of my ideas have prospered, the ones who have ignored it are still living paycheck to paycheck. I can only offer advice, not force it upon them. I haven't gotten to where I am solely on my own, I ask questions and could do much better if I really put more effort into it. I've chosen to be comfortable and to live within my means.

J.B.
08-20-2011, 02:25 AM
I know why people consider me a liberal. Anyone who isn't a conservative has to be a damn librul dagnabbit. If you talk bad of Bush, you're a librul fool. If you don't believe in a god, you're a damned librul heathen. I get it.


I've just been kinda reading and laughing at the back and forth here from a distance. When it comes to arguing about politics, I honestly lost my interest in all of it over the last year or so. Part of it may be that I don't have TV service anymore, so I don't see network news unless I read it online (let's be honest, if you have enough time to watch more than what they show on Netflix for $8 a month, you are either a kid, retired, or have no real life in general). Why should I pay for TV when the only time I use my TV is to watch Netflix or play Xbox? I pay for internet, and a person can watch anything they want to online even with a limited amount of knowledge. I can also head to the local bar and watch all my fights, while getting my drinks at same time. How can you beat that? Sure, I may have to pay for a cab, but whatever. It ends up costing more than the $50 I would spend on a PPV but I have a LOT more fun watching the fights with a ton of people. How does all that relate to the topic at hand? It doesn't. :wink:

The reason I quoted Buzz's statement was to say that he is right when he says people are very quick to judge and pass sweeping generalizations. I am probably more guilty of it than a lot of you, and I'm NOT talking about anyone specifically here. Just saying that I agree with Buzz when he basically says "if you seem this way, you are perceived as this way".

Now, Buzz, I know we have talked, but I will say that sometimes it can be the little things that kill. For example, you know this is a community that largely consists of Christians, so even if it's not your thing, maybe out of respect you could start capitalizing the word God? I know it's a small thing, but it's mostly about respect. When in Rome? :wink:

Sorry that my first post in the politics section in a while has provided no significant answer to any of the political debates we are currently having (as if my other posts did...lol) but I just felt like leaving a couple pennies in this thread. :)

Chris F
08-20-2011, 03:39 AM
I know why people consider me a liberal. Anyone who isn't a conservative has to be a damn librul dagnabbit. If you talk bad of Bush, you're a librul fool. If you don't believe in a god, you're a damned librul heathen. I get it.

If you claim that I have lied in my posts, kindly point them out. You have no problem calling folks out, I don't see why you wouldn't with me.

Why would you think I am a fan of Pelosi? An ignorant assumption on your part.

I've worked for both big and small businesses, and been a part owner of a small business. In all of them I have seen the waste and poor practices. I got out of my ownership due to piss poor decisions and waste of which I had no control.

I watched my friends business go down the tubes when he wouldn't curtail frivolous expenses and change his strategy. I showed him the numbers and offered suggestions. I can't force people to change what I don't have control over.

In my current big business employment, I've seen massive profits and money in the bank wasted on unnecessary things, spending money just because they could. I and other employees offered many cost cutting ideas only to see none of them implemented because we were just lowly worker bees. They wouldn't even listen to the supervisors, why would they listen to me.

One thing I am good at is managing money and tossing unneeded expenses out. Those who have listened and implemented some of my ideas have prospered, the ones who have ignored it are still living paycheck to paycheck. I can only offer advice, not force it upon them. I haven't gotten to where I am solely on my own, I ask questions and could do much better if I really put more effort into it. I've chosen to be comfortable and to live within my means.

You said less Corp taxes would me more money in the pockets of CEO's= lie the ceo pads their pockets because of democrat regulations that force them to hide monies and cook books. All this is readily avaliable in any of the dauntless trials that have taken place in the last 10 years. The corp tax rate have never been the reason. So that is a lie.

peons can suck= another lie and liberal talking point. The fact is when the taxes were low the wages in non union labor was higher and people got more benefits. But since regulation and higher corp tax rates the wages have gone way down. Learn to read a book not a website of lies Buzz

Also you foolish assumption that I give a rats behind what your political affiliation is = lie. I don't I am not a GOP or a DNC and your words prove you are a liberal not your affiliation. So unless you got some hard economic data supported by peer reviewed sources just go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and stop trolling this forum with your ignorance.

Chris F
08-20-2011, 03:42 AM
By the way The heritage foundation offers many articles and resources to educate yourself in basic macro economics and will help anyone understand why the tax rates need to change.

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 04:15 AM
Now, Buzz, I know we have talked, but I will say that sometimes it can be the little things that kill. For example, you know this is a community that largely consists of Christians, so even if it's not your thing, maybe out of respect you could start capitalizing the word God? I know it's a small thing, but it's mostly about respect. When in Rome? :wink:


I understand your point J.B. and appreciate your taking time to enter this discussion. Though in my defense the reason I didn't capitalize the G is because I wasn't talking about a specific named god as in a proper noun, just gods in general, not necessarily the God of the Bible. If I state I don't believe in God, I will capitalize it. I believe I am just following grammar rules. If I am incorrect, I apologize and will try to correct my habit.

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 04:26 AM
You said less Corp taxes would me more money in the pockets of CEO's= lie the ceo pads their pockets because of democrat regulations that force them to hide monies and cook books. All this is readily avaliable in any of the dauntless trials that have taken place in the last 10 years. The corp tax rate have never been the reason. So that is a lie.

peons can suck= another lie and liberal talking point. The fact is when the taxes were low the wages in non union labor was higher and people got more benefits. But since regulation and higher corp tax rates the wages have gone way down. Learn to read a book not a website of lies Buzz

Also you foolish assumption that I give a rats behind what your political affiliation is = lie. I don't I am not a GOP or a DNC and your words prove you are a liberal not your affiliation. So unless you got some hard economic data supported by peer reviewed sources just go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and stop trolling this forum with your ignorance.

Nice try but utter fail on your part. If that's the best you can come up with, then I feel pity for you and think you wasted your money in pursuit of higher education. Clearly you fell asleep in class.

You are so full of it you may explode. What a mess that would make. At least the hazmat teams would have a payday.

Buzzard
08-20-2011, 04:39 AM
just go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and stop trolling this forum with your ignorance.

Just because I can. My ignorance? You are one of the children left behind. I doubt you could grasp any higher education when you can't even write a coherent statement. Hell, I need a decoder ring to try to understand your prepubescent scratching. I'd say you wrote the book of Stupid, but you can't write.

I may make grammatical errors and not have the best sentence structure, but you are a complete ignoramus when it comes to written communication. How did you ever advance grades, was it because you outgrew your seats in grade school? Douche, thy name is ChrisF.

J.B.
08-20-2011, 06:28 AM
I understand your point J.B. and appreciate your taking time to enter this discussion. Though in my defense the reason I didn't capitalize the G is because I wasn't talking about a specific named god as in a proper noun, just gods in general, not necessarily the God of the Bible. If I state I don't believe in God, I will capitalize it. I believe I am just following grammar rules. If I am incorrect, I apologize and will try to correct my habit.

It's all good man. But I know that you know what I'm sayin.. :wink:

Chris F
08-20-2011, 10:42 PM
Nice try but utter fail on your part. If that's the best you can come up with, then I feel pity for you and think you wasted your money in pursuit of higher education. Clearly you fell asleep in class.

You are so full of it you may explode. What a mess that would make. At least the hazmat teams would have a payday.

yet you offer no proof. Check mate sir

Chris F
08-20-2011, 10:45 PM
Just because I can. My ignorance? You are one of the children left behind. I doubt you could grasp any higher education when you can't even write a coherent statement. Hell, I need a decoder ring to try to understand your prepubescent scratching. I'd say you wrote the book of Stupid, but you can't write.

I may make grammatical errors and not have the best sentence structure, but you are a complete ignoramus when it comes to written communication. How did you ever advance grades, was it because you outgrew your seats in grade school? Douche, thy name is ChrisF.

Often when liberals whine and cry about something they lack the intelligence to defend their first reaction is cry about spelling and grammar and call names. Woe that is your playbook to a T isn't. This is a fighter forum not an academic journal. So until you earn the credentials I have and learn to argue basic logic try spamming another site with your foolishness. Bless your heart Buzz you try so hard but it is always out of your grasp. :)

Mark
08-23-2011, 01:45 AM
Just because I can. My ignorance? You are one of the children left behind. I doubt you could grasp any higher education when you can't even write a coherent statement. Hell, I need a decoder ring to try to understand your prepubescent scratching. I'd say you wrote the book of Stupid, but you can't write.

I may make grammatical errors and not have the best sentence structure, but you are a complete ignoramus when it comes to written communication. How did you ever advance grades, was it because you outgrew your seats in grade school? Douche, thy name is ChrisF.

I think you've gone a little too far here with your insults, so I'm putting you on a 1 week suspension. You won't be allowed to post here again until the 29th.

NateR
08-23-2011, 02:07 AM
Do you even know what a farce is? I seriously doubt it. I was honest about what I linked to and honest enough to say I didn't get to fully read it due to time constraints.

Care to show me how it's done and show some proof that it worked? My money is on you running away.

Lol, I could write your replies, they are always the same spiel.

I know what a farce is and if I ever forget, I can always read your comments about Bush.

Anyways, I never presented my comments about trickle down economics as fact:
I believe the economic boom of the 1990s was due in part to trickle down economics. Even if it wasn't, it sure seemed to get us out of the financial mess that Jimmy Carter left this country in.

Those are just my personal opinions and the possibility that those opinions are wrong is worded into my comments about trickle down economics. You, however, presented your personal opinion as fact without even having any evidence or research to back that up. Just another predictable, liberal diatribe from you.

We usually don't see the results of one President's economic policies until the next President takes office. So I believe the economic boom that we experienced in the 90s was in part a result of the "trickle down."

Anyways, I think I could write your replies just as easily as you could write mine.

NateR
08-23-2011, 02:08 AM
I think you've gone a little too far here with your insults, so I'm putting you on a 1 week suspension. You won't be allowed to post here again until the 29th.

:happydancing:

BamaGrits84
08-23-2011, 10:51 PM
I work for a large company so I will say this - we have created 300 hundred new jobs over the past 18 months. Good paying jobs with good benefits. Now, the reason we were able to is more people are buying cars that get good gas mileage that also have good reviews and are a good sell price. So demand has driven our boom. Thankfully the demand is big enough it required construction which really provided thousands of jobs (even though they only last the duration of the contruction phase).

Ok on to taxes. Companies have "low" taxes (compared to previous rates) but are concerned that those low rates are going to go up soon. They have already seen the cost to provide health insurance up go. So why hire? They are scared to. They all know higher taxes are a threat and investors are scared and cost of doing business is going up. So low taxes for the moment does not mean jack. The economy is not stable because the government won't stay out of it. I have never believe it is a good idea for the government to try to fix any problem easpecially one that was designed to full funtion in a free market system.

flo
08-23-2011, 11:29 PM
I work for a large company so I will say this - we have created 300 hundred new jobs over the past 18 months. Good paying jobs with good benefits. Now, the reason we were able to is more people are buying cars that get good gas mileage that also have good reviews and are a good sell price. So demand has driven our boom. Thankfully the demand is big enough it required construction which really provided thousands of jobs (even though they only last the duration of the contruction phase).



Well, that's all good news but what do you think of the REALLY important stuff - Buzzard being banned by Mark for a week?!?






heh, just kidding, BamaGrits :)

Chris F
08-24-2011, 06:51 AM
Well, that's all good news but what do you think of the REALLY important stuff - Buzzard being banned by Mark for a week?!?






heh, just kidding, BamaGrits :)

better question is will he learn form his time away. Mark and NateR are patient guys but he is wearing them thin. If had the truth why not just post that and glaot in that. This is why most all liberals argue the way they do. Squeaky wheels get the grease. This is why most political bloggers are liberals and radio show host are conservative. You can blow smoke on a live show and on blog you can say pretty much anything.

CAVEMAN
08-26-2011, 09:51 PM
The latest posting by the Treasury Department shows the national debt has now increased $4 trillion on President Obama's watch....The national debt increased $4.9 trillion during the eight-year presidency of George W. Bush. The debt now is rising at a pace to surpass that amount during Mr. Obama's four-year term. YEAH, HE'S DONE SUCH A GREAT JOB FOR THIS COUNTRY!

A few years ago, President Obama called adding $4 trillion to the national debt "irresponsible" and "unpatriotic." Now everyone is watching the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kuTG19Cu_Q&feature=player_embedded