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KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-27-2011, 02:07 AM
http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i
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Marine Survives Two Tours in Iraq, SWAT Kills Him
Tim Cavanaugh | May 16, 2011

"Please send me an ambulance and you can ask more questions later, please!"

Guerena tells the dispatcher that her husband had returned home about 6:30 a.m. after work and was sleeping.

Prompted by the dispatcher, Guerena says her husband was shot in the stomach and hands.

The dispatcher asks Guerena to put her cheek next to her husband's nose and mouth to see if he's breathing, but she replies in Spanish that her husband is face- down.

The operator tells Guerena to grab a cloth and apply pressure to his wounds, but the wife responds frantically: "I can't! I can't! There's a bunch of people outside of my house. I don't know what the heck is happening!"

A dispatcher asks if the people outside are the SWAT members. "I think it's the SWAT, but they ... Oh my God!" Guerena says.

A dispatcher asks that she open the door for the SWAT, but Guerena replies that the door was already opened by police.

"Is anybody coming? Is anybody coming?" she asks.

The operator tells Guerena help is on the way, but they're still trying to figure out what happened.

"I don't know, that's it, whatever I told you, that's it," Guerena says.

Just after the five-minute mark, Guerena's end of the line goes silent.

The two dispatchers spend about four minutes talking to each other and calling out for Guerena while trying to figure out if the call is coming from the same residence where the warrant was served. At the end of the 10-minute 911 call, a dispatcher says she has confirmation that Guerena is outside with deputies on the scene.

This is from Arizona Daily Star reporter Fernanda Echavarri's effort to piece together the death of Jose Guerena, 26, at the hands of a Pima County, Arizona SWAT team. Guerena, who joined the Marines in 2002 and served two tours in Iraq, was killed just after 9 a.m. May 5. Guerera had just gone to bed after working a 12-hour shift at a local mine when his home was invaded as part of a multi-house crackdown by sheriff's deputies.

Like enemy of the state Osama bin Laden, Guerena died with his wife close by. Widow Vanessa Guerena, who hid with her four-year-old son when sheriff's deputies raided the home, fills in detail that has been slow to come from Pima County Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik’s office:

"When I came out the officers dragged me through the kitchen and took me outside, and that's when I saw him laying there gasping for air," Vanessa Guerena said. "I kept begging the officers to call an ambulance that maybe he could make it and that my baby was still inside."

The little boy soon after walked out of the closet on his own. SWAT members took him outside to be with his mother.

"I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.

The family's 5-year-old son was at school that morning and deputies say they thought Guerena's wife and his other child would also be gone when they entered the home.

Guerena says there were no drugs in their house.

Deputies said they seized a "large sum of money from another house" that morning. But they refused to say from which of the homes searched that morning they found narcotics, drug ledgers or drug paraphernalia. Court documents showing what was being sought and was found have not been made public. A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history.

Tucson KGUN’s Joel Waldman says the SWAT team prevented paramedics from going to work on Guerena for one hour and fourteen minutes.

The sheriff’s department maintains that Guerena was holding an AR-15 when the paramilitary force fired 71 bullets in his home, but other key parts of the government story have collapsed. While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

Questions about the official story from Ghost32.


*UPDATE (5/20): Sheriffs: Slain Jose Guerena Linked to "Home-Invasion Crew"

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 05:00 PM
http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i
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•reason.com
•reason.tv
•donate
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Marine Survives Two Tours in Iraq, SWAT Kills Him
Tim Cavanaugh | May 16, 2011

"Please send me an ambulance and you can ask more questions later, please!"

Guerena tells the dispatcher that her husband had returned home about 6:30 a.m. after work and was sleeping.

Prompted by the dispatcher, Guerena says her husband was shot in the stomach and hands.

The dispatcher asks Guerena to put her cheek next to her husband's nose and mouth to see if he's breathing, but she replies in Spanish that her husband is face- down.

The operator tells Guerena to grab a cloth and apply pressure to his wounds, but the wife responds frantically: "I can't! I can't! There's a bunch of people outside of my house. I don't know what the heck is happening!"

A dispatcher asks if the people outside are the SWAT members. "I think it's the SWAT, but they ... Oh my God!" Guerena says.

A dispatcher asks that she open the door for the SWAT, but Guerena replies that the door was already opened by police.

"Is anybody coming? Is anybody coming?" she asks.

The operator tells Guerena help is on the way, but they're still trying to figure out what happened.

"I don't know, that's it, whatever I told you, that's it," Guerena says.

Just after the five-minute mark, Guerena's end of the line goes silent.

The two dispatchers spend about four minutes talking to each other and calling out for Guerena while trying to figure out if the call is coming from the same residence where the warrant was served. At the end of the 10-minute 911 call, a dispatcher says she has confirmation that Guerena is outside with deputies on the scene.

This is from Arizona Daily Star reporter Fernanda Echavarri's effort to piece together the death of Jose Guerena, 26, at the hands of a Pima County, Arizona SWAT team. Guerena, who joined the Marines in 2002 and served two tours in Iraq, was killed just after 9 a.m. May 5. Guerera had just gone to bed after working a 12-hour shift at a local mine when his home was invaded as part of a multi-house crackdown by sheriff's deputies.

Like enemy of the state Osama bin Laden, Guerena died with his wife close by. Widow Vanessa Guerena, who hid with her four-year-old son when sheriff's deputies raided the home, fills in detail that has been slow to come from Pima County Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik’s office:

"When I came out the officers dragged me through the kitchen and took me outside, and that's when I saw him laying there gasping for air," Vanessa Guerena said. "I kept begging the officers to call an ambulance that maybe he could make it and that my baby was still inside."

The little boy soon after walked out of the closet on his own. SWAT members took him outside to be with his mother.

"I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.

The family's 5-year-old son was at school that morning and deputies say they thought Guerena's wife and his other child would also be gone when they entered the home.

Guerena says there were no drugs in their house.

Deputies said they seized a "large sum of money from another house" that morning. But they refused to say from which of the homes searched that morning they found narcotics, drug ledgers or drug paraphernalia. Court documents showing what was being sought and was found have not been made public. A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history.

Tucson KGUN’s Joel Waldman says the SWAT team prevented paramedics from going to work on Guerena for one hour and fourteen minutes.

The sheriff’s department maintains that Guerena was holding an AR-15 when the paramilitary force fired 71 bullets in his home, but other key parts of the government story have collapsed. While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

Questions about the official story from Ghost32.


*UPDATE (5/20): Sheriffs: Slain Jose Guerena Linked to "Home-Invasion Crew"



I hate writers that try to sensationalize an event.. using words to create an inflamatory enviorment...

The sheriff’s department maintains that Guerena was holding an AR-15 when the paramilitary force fired 71 bullets in his home, but other key parts of the government story have collapsed. While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:


Yes, SWAT is a paralilitary force.. but many consider the boyscouts paramilitary.. using paramilitary.. is poor writing, to get readers worked up..

something else to consider....

he was "alleged" to have been holding a weapon.. well.. if he wasn't holding it.. there would have been no reason to shoot him..

The "deadly group panic" was not caused by the police.. but rather they guy with the rifle...

"containing a woman and a toddler".. I guess it's a good thing the gun(s) and the toddler were not in the same room.. BTW.. 5 year old "toddler"???

Does ANYONE think it's a good idea to carry a rifle when the cops are breaking into your home??

CNNs version is a little more cut and dried.

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 05:07 PM
As many good marines/sailors/soldiers/airmen there are also a lot of bad ones so if he did not follow the law or instructions of the officers unfortunately he received the same protocol any of us would have.. Former Marine or not.

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 05:18 PM
As many good marines/sailors/soldiers/airmen there are also a lot of bad ones so if he did not follow the law or instructions of the officers unfortunately he received the same protocol any of us would have.. Former Marine or not.


Agreed.

Our Armed Forces is 100% volunteer and I love them for what they do.. they stand up for us and others.. and being a former marine.. seems like he would have known better.. and if the reasoning behind SWAT even being at his home are true.. then .. soory it happened.. but he brought it on himself.

VCURamFan
05-27-2011, 05:23 PM
As many good marines/sailors/soldiers/airmen there are also a lot of bad ones so if he did not follow the law or instructions of the officers unfortunately he received the same protocol any of us would have.. Former Marine or not.
That's what I was thinking: it doesn't matter the profession, unfortunately there tend to be just as many a-holes in the military as there are in civilian life. As much as I want each & every Marine to be a Brian Stann, that's sadly not the case.

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 07:03 PM
he was "alleged" to have been holding a weapon.. well.. if he wasn't holding it.. .

On his land...is that not permittable under US law?

Did they even have a "reason" to be their at all? In England you would have to actually FIND drugs before you make an arrest, let alone shooting someone whose merely under suspicion, and probably been startled...If he was innocent...dont suppose he'd expect armed invaders to suprise him...do you?

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 07:16 PM
On his land...is that not permittable under US law?

Did they even have a "reason" to be their at all? In England you would have to actually FIND drugs before you make an arrest, let alone shooting someone whose merely under suspicion, and probably been startled...If he was innocent...dont suppose he'd expect armed invaders to suprise him...do you?

I am sure there is more to the story than what was summarized. If the police tell you to freeze you better do it. They are trained to shoot and kill not give you an ouchie on your big toe. They risk their lives everyday for our protection so I am sure they gave him a warning before anything was done to him.

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 07:21 PM
I am sure there is more to the story than what was summarized. If the police tell you to freeze you better do it. They are trained to shoot and kill not give you an ouchie on your big toe. They risk their lives everyday for our protection so I am sure they gave him a warning before anything was done to him.

I'm sure your right.

My point is...in US law, presuming you have the right liscence, and the right type of fire arm...you are allowed to have your gun, display your gun, carry your gun...and use your gun if you are attacked.

Therefore holding a fire arm bears absolutely no reflection on his presumed guilt.

Thats what I was getting at. Not that he was innocent...but that to be in possession of a legal fire arm on his property is not only allowed, in American Culture its very much encouraged...outside of the cities, it should be presumed that every person has a weapon...and that all tresspassers will be shot at...Thats perfectly legal in America. :)

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 07:23 PM
I'm sure your right.

My point is...in US law, presuming you have the right liscence, and the right type of fire arm...you are allowed to have your gun, display your gun, carry your gun...and use your gun if you are attacked.

Therefore holding a fire arm bears absolutely no reflection on his presumed guilt.

Thats what I was getting at. Not that he was innocent...but that to be in possession of a legal fire arm on his property is not only allowed, in American Culture its very much encouraged...outside of the cities, it should be presumed that every person has a weapon...and that all tresspassers will be shot at...Thats perfectly legal in America. :)
To be truthful I am not saavy when it comes to gun laws. I just use my noodle and figure if the police/feds come in surrender your weapon. haha.. Hopefully someone on this forum knows more about the laws and can help us both out.. :laugh:

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 07:33 PM
To be truthful I am not saavy when it comes to gun laws. I just use my noodle and figure if the police/feds come in surrend your weapon. haha.. Hopefully someone on this forum knows more about the laws and can help us both out.. :laugh:

:laugh: What I know, is what I've picked up here...coz obviously, we dont have guns in England :unsure-1:

I assume you need a liscence to own a firearm...but I dont know that for certain. I am absolutely sure you need a liscence if you intend to carry one around with you outside your property.

I dont know if there is a limit to the type you can carry, or a liscence needed for each one, or if you can carry different types, or many of the same. I dont know about that...

I also have a feeling that these Laws differ from State to State...so I dont know if you may need like a liscence to carry in a different state on top of the liscence you already have to carry in your own.

One assumes there are also limits on what arms you can bear...I dont think the Federal Government permit Rocket Launchers for example.

Now I know that if you go hunting, you need liscences and records of each kill are made, and you can only hunt certain things, at certain times, and in certain ammounts.

I also dont know the laws for sorta making your own, or changing you weapon. For some reason, all the villans in England feel the need to cut the end of their barrels...I have no idea why...I dont know if you can do that in America or not.

But In America they also allow you to use other things...like Tazers, or sprays that make peoples faces swell up or something.... :blink:

I dont know whether you need liscences for other weapons, like knives, or swords...in England you DONT need any liscence to buy or sell weapons like that...which suprised me considering how tight the gun control was. I have many a knife and a sword....but I am not allowed to use any if in danger, for I must remember, Criminals have human right also :mellow:

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 07:35 PM
:laugh: What I know, is what I've picked up here...coz obviously, we dont have guns in England :unsure-1:

I assume you need a liscence to own a firearm...but I dont know that for certain. I am absolutely sure you need a liscence if you intend to carry one around with you outside your property.

I dont know if there is a limit to the type you can carry, or a liscence needed for each one, or if you can carry different types, or many of the same. I dont know about that...

I also have a feeling that these Laws differ from State to State...so I dont know if you may need like a liscence to carry in a different state on top of the liscence you already have to carry in your own.

One assumes there are also limits on what arms you can bear...I dont think the Federal Government permit Rocket Launchers for example.

Now I know that if you go hunting, you need liscences and records of each kill are made, and you can only hunt certain things, at certain times, and in certain ammounts.

I also dont know the laws for sorta making your own, or changing you weapon. For some reason, all the villans in England feel the need to cut the end of their barrels...I have no idea why...I dont know if you can do that in America or not.

But In America they also allow you to use other things...like Tazers, or sprays that make peoples faces swell up or something.... :blink:

I dont know whether you need liscences for other weapons, like knives, or swords...in England you DONT need any liscence to buy or sell weapons like that...which suprised me considering how tight the gun control was. I have many a knife and a sword....but I am not allowed to use any if in danger, for I must remember, Criminals have human right also :mellow:
Not me if my childrens lives or my life is in jeopardy I will slice them up like a Virginia ham. I love knives...:ashamed:

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Not me if my childrens lives or my life is in jeopardy I will slice them up like a Virginia ham. I love knives...:ashamed:

So Do I :w00t:

We are NOT allowed to carry our Knives around with us...which presents problems sometimes...for example...I went on a European Tour at the start of the Century...I went to Germany...and they had this beautiful lil Knife...which I bought.

Shortly there after the tour bus stopped at the Swiss Boarder...and these Armed Men got on the bus and started searching through everyones luggage...I had a knife in my hand luggage...I got it out and sat on it and prayed they didnt ask me to get up...coz I dont think they spoke English

Same goes for the train Journey between Leeds and Harrogate...there is a glorious knife shop in Leeds, it sells magnificent blades...I bought one...and of course had to get it home...well...that means I was effectively carrying a concealed weapon in this bag all the way home...but it was unavoidable

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 07:43 PM
So Do I :w00t:

We are NOT allowed to carry our Knives around with us...which presents problems sometimes...for example...I went on a European Tour at the start of the Century...I went to Germany...and they had this beautiful lil Knife...which I bought.

Shortly there after the tour bus stopped at the Swiss Boarder...and these Armed Men got on the bus and started searching through everyones luggage...I had a knife in my hand luggage...I got it out and sat on it and prayed they didnt ask me to get up...coz I dont think they spoke English

Same goes for the train Journey between Leeds and Harrogate...there is a glorious knife shop in Leeds, it sells magnificent blades...I bought one...and of course had to get it home...well...that means I was effectively carrying a concealed weapon in this bag all the way home...but it was unavoidable

So when I do my tour next year in the UK I can't pick me up a blade? :wink:My kitchen knives are all Henckels gotta support my fellow Deutsche.. That would have been scary to have a concealed weapon Dave!! Your brush with the law lol

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 07:55 PM
:laugh: What I know, is what I've picked up here...coz obviously, we dont have guns in England :unsure-1:

I assume you need a liscence to own a firearm...but I dont know that for certain. I am absolutely sure you need a liscence if you intend to carry one around with you outside your property.

No. You do not need a license to own a pistol/rifle. You need a license/permit to buy to buy a pistol (handgun). 2 of my guns were given to me.

Ironically.. an Uzi is still considered a rifle in many states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi

I dont know if there is a limit to the type you can carry, or a liscence needed for each one, or if you can carry different types, or many of the same. I dont know about that...

A permit to carry or permit to carry conceled are different from owning a gun/rifle


I also have a feeling that these Laws differ from State to State...so I dont know if you may need like a liscence to carry in a different state on top of the liscence you already have to carry in your own.

They do and you do. If you are licensed to carry in NC... and carry into SC.. that license to carry in SC is just a piece of paper.. it's up to the individual to be aware of the individual states laws concerning firearms.

One assumes there are also limits on what arms you can bear...I dont think the Federal Government permit Rocket Launchers for example.

You would be surprised ... but no, you can't get a license to buy a "rocket launcher".

Now I know that if you go hunting, you need liscences and records of each kill are made, and you can only hunt certain things, at certain times, and in certain ammounts.

Yes

I also dont know the laws for sorta making your own, or changing you weapon. For some reason, all the villans in England feel the need to cut the end of their barrels...I have no idea why...I dont know if you can do that in America or not.

Tat vaires greatly. You can go into K-Mart and guy various rifles/shotguns.. but some modifications are illegal.

But In America they also allow you to use other things...like Tazers, or sprays that make peoples faces swell up or something.... :blink:

Projectile tazers can not be bought by the gereral public in most states.. "stun guns" are regulated in many areas also. Some "pepper sprays" anyone can carry.. others.. no.

I dont know whether you need liscences for other weapons, like knives, or swords...in England you DONT need any liscence to buy or sell weapons like that...which suprised me considering how tight the gun control was. I have many a knife and a sword....but I am not allowed to use any if in danger, for I must remember, Criminals have human right also :mellow:

No you do not need a license to own a sword/knife..
some weapons (brass knuckles for instance) are not legal.

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 07:57 PM
On his land...is that not permittable under US law?

Did they even have a "reason" to be their at all? In England you would have to actually FIND drugs before you make an arrest, let alone shooting someone whose merely under suspicion, and probably been startled...If he was innocent...dont suppose he'd expect armed invaders to suprise him...do you?


Yes. He was connected to a "home invasion gang".. and a bunch of other stuff...

he can own the gun legally.. but pointing it.. or appearing to point it at a cop is a easy way to get killed.

Miss Foxy
05-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Thanks for the clarification SW. I learned something new today... :scared0011:

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 08:19 PM
So when I do my tour next year in the UK I can't pick me up a blade? :wink:My kitchen knives are all Henckels gotta support my fellow Deutsche.. That would have been scary to have a concealed weapon Dave!! Your brush with the law lol


You could buy a Knife...but you'd have to get it to your lodging unseen, just like any of us.

The problem with you is that when you leave the country...how would you intend to take the Knife back?

Firstly, I managed to get mine across several Boarders, including Germany/Switzerland, Switzerland/France, France/England. but there are two things to remember. Firstly, it was in the days BEFORE 9/11 and the Customs were less bothered about Terrorism back then.

Secondly...I never took it on a Plane. I crossed the French/English Boarder by Sea...and important point.

The likelihood is that you could explain it to customs and they would be fine with it...but thats dependant on Goodwill...they could equally confiscate your artical and never give it back...now getting out of England is possible...But good luck on getting ANYTHING into America...America even makes its returning Citizens fill in the onboard flight visa :laugh: you cant get more anal in your air traffic boarder control then that :laugh::laugh:

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 08:28 PM
No. You do not need a license to own a pistol/rifle. You need a license/permit to buy to buy a pistol (handgun). 2 of my guns were given to me.

Ironically.. an Uzi is still considered a rifle in many states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi



A permit to carry or permit to carry conceled are different from owning a gun/rifle




They do and you do. If you are licensed to carry in NC... and carry into SC.. that license to carry in SC is just a piece of paper.. it's up to the individual to be aware of the individual states laws concerning firearms.



You would be surprised ... but no, you can't get a license to buy a "rocket launcher".



Yes



Tat vaires greatly. You can go into K-Mart and guy various rifles/shotguns.. but some modifications are illegal.



Projectile tazers can not be bought by the gereral public in most states.. "stun guns" are regulated in many areas also. Some "pepper sprays" anyone can carry.. others.. no.



No you do not need a license to own a sword/knife..
some weapons (brass knuckles for instance) are not legal.

define exactly what a Handgun is...I mean..are the laws different for Automatic vs Semi automatic? (not that I know what the difference is...but I heard they are different types..I think its when you only press the trigger once...but it fires consistantly until you let go...so you get more then one bullet per pull) What about Revolvers...or Shotguns..are they Handguns? what about Machine guns...like the handheld ones?

Is there a difference between carrying, and concealed carry...and if so..how come? surely they are both equal in terms of the ability to use the artical in question.

I had no idea that there were some Tazers you could use and some you couldnt...do you need permits for them also?

When I meant Rocket launcher...I was thinking of those big tubes in the ground that point randomly upwards...and you drop a big bomb into it...and it makes a funny noise and almost jumps back out...I dont think it even has a trigger, I think its more like bouncing the bomb on a giant spring...you can see it in the film "we were soldiers" coz they have to stop using it when they over heat...and the only way to get them working again is to chuck water over them, but they have no water...so there is a suggestion that they...oh..nevermind, you get the idea I'm sure :ashamed:

...and are you allowed to own the ones where you carry the big cylinder on your shoulder and it kinda explodes both ends...? :huh:

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 08:48 PM
define exactly what a Handgun is...I mean..are the laws different for Automatic vs Semi automatic? (not that I know what the difference is...but I heard they are different types..I think its when you only press the trigger once...but it fires consistantly until you let go...so you get more then one bullet per pull) What about Revolvers...or Shotguns..are they Handguns? what about Machine guns...like the handheld ones?


A semi automatic will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.. a fully automatic will continue to fire while the trigger is held... Most states do not allow for fully automatic weapons.. but the issue is that many semi autos can be made fully auto.. sometimes fairly easily.

a revolver is a hand run.. think old west movies..
a shotgun is considered a rifle..


Here is soemthign not many people know..
In most states.. a felon can not own a gun (as in purchase or posses).. but that does not include black powder weapons..


Is there a difference between carrying, and concealed carry...and if so..how come? surely they are both equal in terms of the ability to use the artical in question.[quote]

a permit to Carry is rarely needed.. most states will allow for this. It means you can carry as long as it is not conceled.

A Carry conceled permit is normally harder to get..

they are not the same.. it's not the use of the weapon.. but rather the potential for the use..

another funny thing...

In NC you can carry your gun in your car if it's in plain sight.. in SC, you have to have it in your trunk.

[quote]I had no idea that there were some Tazers you could use and some you couldnt...do you need permits for them also?

As far as I know.. a tazer (it fires projectiles with wires attached) can not be purchased. that may be different in some states.. a Stun Gun is legal in NC.

When I meant Rocket launcher...I was thinking of those big tubes in the ground that point randomly upwards...and you drop a big bomb into it...and it makes a funny noise and almost jumps back out...I dont think it even has a trigger, I think its more like bouncing the bomb on a giant spring...you can see it in the film "we were soldiers" coz they have to stop using it when they over heat...and the only way to get them working again is to chuck water over them, but they have no water...so there is a suggestion that they...oh..nevermind, you get the idea I'm sure :ashamed:

...and are you allowed to own the ones where you carry the big cylinder on your shoulder and it kinda explodes both ends...? :huh:


no.. at least I hope not.

http://militarysurplusforsale.org/

http://militaryriflesforsale.net/

http://militarysurplusfirearms.net/

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 08:50 PM
But good luck on getting ANYTHING into America...America even makes its returning Citizens fill in the onboard flight visa :laugh: you cant get more anal in your air traffic boarder control then that :laugh::laugh:


You do know the reason for that don't you?

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 09:58 PM
You do know the reason for that don't you?

:ashamed: No...I dont know why a Citizen would have to sign a Visa to enter their own country...I've not seen it in anywhere else in the world that ive traveled.

In England, you dont have to...and in England there are fast lanes for clearing customs for returning Citizens.

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 10:00 PM
A semi automatic will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.. a fully automatic will continue to fire while the trigger is held... Most states do not allow for fully automatic weapons.. but the issue is that many semi autos can be made fully auto.. sometimes fairly easily.

a revolver is a hand run.. think old west movies..
a shotgun is considered a rifle..


Here is soemthign not many people know..
In most states.. a felon can not own a gun (as in purchase or posses).. but that does not include black powder weapons..


[quote]Is there a difference between carrying, and concealed carry...and if so..how come? surely they are both equal in terms of the ability to use the artical in question.[quote]

a permit to Carry is rarely needed.. most states will allow for this. It means you can carry as long as it is not conceled.

A Carry conceled permit is normally harder to get..

they are not the same.. it's not the use of the weapon.. but rather the potential for the use..

another funny thing...

In NC you can carry your gun in your car if it's in plain sight.. in SC, you have to have it in your trunk.



As far as I know.. a tazer (it fires projectiles with wires attached) can not be purchased. that may be different in some states.. a Stun Gun is legal in NC.




no.. at least I hope not.

http://militarysurplusforsale.org/

http://militaryriflesforsale.net/

http://militarysurplusfirearms.net/

Black powder weapons :huh: as in a Blunderbus or something :blink:

you seem to know an awdul lot on this subject :unsure-1:

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 11:42 PM
In England, you dont have to...and in England there are fast lanes for clearing customs for returning Citizens.



Your a smart guy and you like research... figure it out...

The states have "fast lanes" also.. do some digging.

Spiritwalker
05-27-2011, 11:43 PM
Black powder weapons :huh: as in a Blunderbus or something :blink:

you seem to know an awdul lot on this subject :unsure-1:



Too old.. think "ball and musket"

I wanted to be a cop for many years...

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 11:57 PM
Your a smart guy and you like research... figure it out...

The states have "fast lanes" also.. do some digging.

I cant be arsed :laugh: I never saw no fast lanes when I visited...but it was a terribly large airport and I was concentrating on other things also....all I can tell you is the American who I traveled with (he was going home) was in the same customs que as me, and he had to fill in the Visa same as me :laugh:

Tyburn
05-27-2011, 11:58 PM
I wanted to be a cop for many years...

Oh :unsure-1:

KENTUCKYREDBONE
05-28-2011, 05:51 AM
Not all Military is honest and the same go's for police! I would like to know more like did they identify thierselfs as Police, was it a no knock warrant,did they even have the right house? Plus I think the Warrant needs to be unsealed! I am not against honest law enforcement but I don't want the law to get to heavy handed either. I want the Police to protect and serve. They are supposed to serve the public not the public serve them!

Tyburn
05-28-2011, 12:21 PM
I would like to know more like did they identify thierselfs as Police,

See THAT was the problem with the De Menzies shooting in London, 2005.

The police lied, and claimed that he was wearing a heavy jacket in the middle of summer, which they assumed had bombs underneith. This was fine til the pictures in the paper showed the body was wearing a denim jacket...

The police lied, and claimed that he had jumpped the ticket barrier on the way down, This was fine til the CCTV footage of the Underground was released...and showed him going normally through the ticket barrier.

Lastly...there was the issue that he ran away from police....Well...firstly, they were plain clothed officers who pulled guns on him without identifying themselves!! He ran probably because he thought they were out to mug him or something!

He fled onto a full carriage, and tripped getting down the train, they shot him seven times point blank range in the head infront of all the passengers...and then they realized it was a case of mistaken identity...

He had come out of the same block of flats as a suspect and as the on duty officers were paying more attention to a loo break then the identity of the person just out...they never got a proper ID in the first place.

There was...finally...a public inquest...but as you will know, a public inquest is NON Judicial, and merely asks people to tell the truth to the public. The shooter of course attended, and was suspended (as is usual after any gunfire in the police) and then reinstated...noone was ever prosecuted.

a matter of months later, he was suspended for accidently shooting someone else...seems clear the guy is trigger happy, if you pardon the pun :unsure-1: